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Thread: A Question About Immigration

  1. #1
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    A Question About Immigration

    We currently have a very poor economy (histroicly), with talk of a double-dip or worse still inbound.

    We have a Federal Govt. hip-deep in debt, and spending well beyond our means.

    We have unemployment at a high level and not getting better.

    We have college kids (grads) unable toi find jobs when the graduate, and poor-to-middle-class people of lower skills/education unable to find anything.

    So the question I have is this:

    Why are we still importing immigrants (Legal) as if everythign we great? Why has there been no change in legal immigration numbers, to match the down turn we face, the debt we face, or the unemployment issues we face already?

    I'm not even discussing the 20-40 million ILLEGALS we're doing almost nothing to chase away, and in fact reward at every turn with free healthcare, free social services and in-state tuition even I (A citizen) cannot get.

    It would seem in this economy and environment, that immigration numbers (legal) would be reduced heavly, to help existing American Citizens find work, instead of losing out to newly arrived immigrants.

    I say this as an immigrant (legal) myself. The idea that in this economy, we'd import in so many legal immigrants that, according to a radio news (ABC) report today, college kids today face massive job pressure upon grad from newly arrived legal immigrants, is just mind boggling to me.

    Is the right to immigrate to the US a global human right? Because I'm beginning to think alot of folks in power think it is.

    Who does our Government serve? Existing US Citizens who are in a bad economy and facing massive emplyment problems?

    Or immigrants, legal and illegal, who get it in massive number both ways, and create added pressure on limited jobs, services, infrastructure and more?

    I'm NOT against legal immigration (as I said, I AM one! I love the idea). But do hard times and tought emplyment figures not warrant lowering the number we allow in, and doing soemthing, anything, to curb the endless batches of illegals?

    Is this really just "good for (D) for voters, good for (R) for businss, bad for the rest of us and too bad for us"?

    Someone (other than CR< you're on my ignore list, just FYI) educate me, please?

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    Not going to drop much education... Just a brief statement...

    I have no problem bringing in immigrants via legal means... To be honest, I remember reading that more than half the adults that migrate legally are already holding a degree of some sort...

    The immigrants we pick up via Europe / Asia are likely already educated and skilled in a profession they intend to work here... That gives them the edge on a college graduate fresh off a BA or Masters...

    What we need to do is sift out the lower middle class (and poor) workers migrating... May be painted as racist for saying it but whatever... It's my opinion and I'm welcomed to it.

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    I have a better idea. Let's just deport the citizens that aren't contributing anything to society whatsoever. You know, the 45%.

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    I believe when we cut the amount of visas for skilled workers (2004ish?) allowed to come into the US IT jobs started moving to India.

    I think there are jobs in the US (like nurses and Doktors) that we cannot fill so those jobs are filled by foreign born go-getters. Those folks are given visas double quick pronto




    For the good of the rest of us you could fall on your sword and move back to Tralfamadore.

    Just an idea

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    Quote Originally Posted by JetPotato View Post
    I have a better idea. Let's just deport the citizens that aren't contributing anything to society whatsoever. You know, the 45%.
    That's a great idea! Walmart will immediately go out of business!

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    It certainly isn't a right to come here, but we do encourage, as with the rest of the free world, a peaceful movement of law abiding people/labor across countries. I'm saying I don't think it's time to be more stringent about legal immigration.

    Illegal immigration is all about the how. I don't think anyone in their right mind thinks it's good for the country. I think the best way to stop illegal immigration is by helping Mexico. 62% of illegals are of Mexican descent. The next highest is El Salvador at 5%. Why are they fleeing their country? What can we do to address it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buster View Post
    I believe when we cut the amount of visas for skilled workers (2004ish?) allowed to come into the US IT jobs started moving to India.
    IT jobs? lol. Trouble shooting my router by reading a pamphlet is hardly IT...

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    i work in technology and we have alot of visa workers

    honestly Warfish, these people are a boon to the economy. there aren't enough smart people for these jobs. Period.

    one way to look at it... there's job X and if it's filled by Indian Y that's one less job for American Z.

    the truth is that often times, American Z can't do the job, that Indian Y can do... and wouldn't get that job. or he'd get fired soon. the firm holds everyone to super high standards. it wouldn't cause Americans to be hired cause chances are they aren't good enough either way... with or without the visa competition. I was good enough, and some others are as well but I worked damn hard to get there.

    good firms don't hire people because they have to... it isn't a ditch digging job. they don't hire college kids just to backfill. They want to hire the best and they need production. if the best is from another country they should be allowed to do it.

    that's the free market and it should be allowed to work unfettered. the same way that the price and product of Brazilian sugar might be better than Louisiana sugar.

    and on a personal level I want to work with the best smartest people. I don't want some American affirmative action where i have to work with dummies... to help the economy. it's a false help and it's not how a meritocracy should work. American workers are going to have to compete with workers from around the world, either step up the game or get beat. I dont want the gov't slanting the playing field.
    Last edited by bitonti; 06-09-2011 at 08:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bitonti View Post
    I don't want some American affirmative action where i have to work with dummies... to help the economy. it's a false help and it's not how a meritocracy should work.
    Now THAT'S a hanging curveball for the (R)'s on the site.

    <grabs popcorn>


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    Quote Originally Posted by bitonti View Post
    honestly Warfish, these people are a boon to the economy. there aren't enough smart people for these jobs. Period.
    That says alot about the American Education system, doesn't it? The best and brightest in the US, our college and university graduates, are too stupid to work in IT.

    IT, where the average IT Manager I've had to work with is about as smart as the broken copy machine he has to contract out to get fixed.

    one way to look at it... there's job X and if it's filled by Indian Y that's one less job for American Z.
    Yes, that is how I look at it. In a time of great need for US (citizens) I find it morally objectionable that as a matter of policy we import someone equivalent to do a job an American Citizen could be doing.

    It speaks to my question, is our Govt. (and it's policies) working for us, or no? You seem to argue it should be working for Business (best workers anywhere on earth), and for foreigners who may have an equivalent resume to an American, but will work for less.

    the truth is that often times, American Z can't do the job, that Indian Y can do...
    Sounds like the old ideas that women and blacks couldn't do X. I thought that thinking was a thing of the past.

    I don't want some American affirmative action where i have to work with dummies... to help the economy. it's a false help and it's not how a meritocracy should work.


    American workers are going to have to compete with workers from around the world, either step up the game or get beat. I dont want the gov't slanting the playing field.
    Except the Govt, IS already lsanting the playing field, by importing immigrants who will work for less, and hence putting a qualified American out of a potential job.

    In effect, you support shipping jobs overseas. Only you want to bring the overseas to the US to do the job.
    Last edited by Warfish; 06-09-2011 at 10:13 PM.

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    to add to Bitoni's point, I don't think it is just an issue of the immigrant can do the job and the American can't, but the immigrant, even a legal one, will do it cheaper.

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    Quote Originally Posted by piney View Post
    to add to Bitoni's point, I don't think it is just an issue of the immigrant can do the job and the American can't, but the immigrant, even a legal one, will do it cheaper.
    I disagree. I dont believe that should have been his main point... Thats lower middle class work.

    Anything above that, immigrants receive the job based on experience.

    Speaking for my company, some of our best and brightest minds had no prior experience in this field. But the majority have been at this forever. Thats what companies want. They dont want to take a flyer on greatness when just being adaquate benefits the bottom dollar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    That says alot about the American Education system, doesn't it? The best and brightest in the US, our college and university graduates, are too stupid to work in IT.

    IT, where the average IT Manager I've had to work with is about as smart as the broken copy machine he has to contract out to get fixed.
    Just to be clear I work in IS not quite the same as IT. Information Systems. That means creating, enhancing, the systems. IT (technology) is like high tech janitor make sure everything is working and if not clean it up. My monitor is not connected. Hardware failure or software config they are problem solvers but it's mostly routine stuff. IS is a tougher gig. I have a masters in information systems and most of my colleagues have similar. It's not a job you can take a college grad and plop him in front of a computer and say "go" - even the best and brightest need a couple years doing grunt work before they can perform. They say something like 50% of all software development projects end in failure. Failure is very expensive It's very hard to create a good program. If a company like Goldman sachs needs a low-latency trading algorithm they aren't going to best buy and hiring the geek squad to write that program. They might get a guy from MIT or Russia or Bombay or Shanghai but wherever they are going they are getting the best, because stakes are high and failure is not an option.


    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    Yes, that is how I look at it. In a time of great need for US (citizens) I find it morally objectionable that as a matter of policy we import someone equivalent to do a job an American Citizen could be doing.
    Alot of firms hire lawyers to fight for visas, it's actually cheaper to hire an American in alot of cases. But there isn't a supply of labor that can meet the job requirements. It's just that simple. Creating an artificial barrier would be like saying to the NFL you can't get running backs from the Big 10 only Division III. Well except for your buddy Danny Woodhead, that's not where the NFL caliber running backs are. It's not the fault of businesses they can't find enough super smart Americans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post

    It speaks to my question, is our Govt. (and it's policies) working for us, or no? You seem to argue it should be working for Business (best workers anywhere on earth), and for foreigners who may have an equivalent resume to an American, but will work for less.
    this is another falsehood. a foreign worker on an H-1 visa is not cheap and will not work for peanuts. This is not a straight up outsourcing situation. the dude might be the top of his class at University of Mumbai in computer science he's not going to work for 30k. I've seen many situations where the foreign programmers make more than the local ones.

    it's not about price it's about quality. The same way a sick person might pay more to see the best doctor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post

    Sounds like the old ideas that women and blacks couldn't do X. I thought that thinking was a thing of the past.
    the HR dept has trouble finding candidates that meet their requirements. Period. The people can be from Mars or down the street... they want good candidates. denying these visas isn't creating jobs for Americans. It's a false trade off cause they aren't gonna lower their requirements just to fill a job. the job will just go unfilled until they find the right person.

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    Quote Originally Posted by piney View Post
    to add to Bitoni's point, I don't think it is just an issue of the immigrant can do the job and the American can't, but the immigrant, even a legal one, will do it cheaper.
    again let me be clear that was not my point, nor is it true. A highly qualified visa worker with experience is way more expensive than a fresh local college grad with no experience. and even a local guy with experience... a foreigner is probably more expensive or at least equal. there's hidden costs like you don't have to pay an army of lawyers to fight for local guy's status. I've seen foreigners with Phd's and 10 years wall st experience, walk in and make 6 figures day 1. a kid from a local college will almost always be cheaper but would you trust that kid to make a program that runs the heart of your business? Probably not. or imagine you needed to make software that controls a pacemaker or a nuclear power plant... do you want a kid who was doing kegstands last week working on that program?

    On the other hand the guys with the high salaries have a big target on their head, if they underperform for a week they are gone. a cheaper worker gets alot of chances cause it doesn't really benefit the budget to cut a 35k fresh graduate. the young guys are like high potential double A baseball players you hope that they pan out but they often don't. it's not like signing Ryan Howard who you know WILL hit those 50 HR.
    Last edited by bitonti; 06-10-2011 at 11:25 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bitonti View Post
    Just to be clear I work in IS not quite the same as IT. Information Systems. That means creating, enhancing, the systems. IT (technology) is like high tech janitor make sure everything is working and if not clean it up. My monitor is not connected. Hardware failure or software config they are problem solvers but it's mostly routine stuff. IS is a tougher gig. I have a masters in information systems and most of my colleagues have similar. It's not a job you can take a college grad and plop him in front of a computer and say "go" - even the best and brightest need a couple years doing grunt work before they can perform. They say something like 50% of all software development projects end in failure. Failure is very expensive It's very hard to create a good program. If a company like Goldman sachs needs a low-latency trading algorithm they aren't going to best buy and hiring the geek squad to write that program. They might get a guy from MIT or Russia or Bombay or Shanghai but wherever they are going they are getting the best, because stakes are high and failure is not an option.
    Even IT, in your definition of it, is not IT/IS Management. I agree with Fish that many IT managers that have customer facing positions are not technical. For the most part they are help desk guys that manage a help desk. The real developers and high quality techs wouldn't take the pay cut to go into management and often lack the social skills to make the transition and those people rarely work directly with the business so the best and brightest are rarely known by those in the business.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bitonti View Post
    Words
    So in sumation, your entire position is that the U.S. Workforce is horribad, stupid, lazy, ineffeciant and poorly educated and trained to work in a whole range of fields, including your own field of IS.

    And again, I would counter with:

    If everything you say is true, that sure says alot about the U.S. Education System. I can think of no greater indictment of it that what you've written in this thread.

    My position remains the same, however. Importing non-citizens to do work that COULD be done, even if at a slightly lesser degree of quality/efficientcy, is something I find reprehensible, a betrayal by Govt. against it's own people, in the pure interests of Business profits.

    And I'll repeat that it's a bit shocking to see you side so deeply with Business, over the well being of the People. Although maybe I shouldn't be so suprised, given the oft expressed love for one-world'ism, globalism and the hatred of Nationalism in many on the left, who see things like borders and citizenship and nations as an anacronistic thing of the (soon to be) past.
    Last edited by Warfish; 06-10-2011 at 12:06 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    So in sumation, your entire position is that the U.S. Workforce is horribad, stupid, lazy, ineffeciant and poorly educated and trained to work in a whole range of fields, including your own field of IS.
    To defend Bit he did say that he was qualified, so he does feel at least someone in America was already qualified.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    So in sumation, your entire position is that the U.S. Workforce is horribad, stupid, lazy, ineffeciant and poorly educated and trained to work in a whole range of fields, including your own field of IS.
    I dont think you read my post carefully. I didn't say anything about the US Workforce as a whole or their educations.

    My main point was that HR always has trouble finding acceptable candidates.

    Whether there's a high unemployment rate or a low one... these are hard jobs to fill.

    You assume that if all immigration was made illegal that businesses would HAVE to fill these roles with US Candidates. They don't have to do that. They can leave the positions unfilled. Or pursue different goals. maybe they don't build in house a new system if it is not feasible to get it done. Maybe they buy from a vendor who might be in another country. sophisticated businesses will not be strong armed into buying bad labor because there's no other choice.

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    One interesting note from my experience:
    I was just tasked with interviewing people to fill a technical role as a long term consultant in my team. We were in a hurry so we only interviewed 4 applicants; 2 Americans (both male) and 2 Indians (1 male and 1 female).

    The first American was exceptionally annoying. 25 minutes late. He answered questions with the scatter shot method meaning he would keep talking and throwing out buzz words hoping he hit the answer somewhere in the ramble. He even threw in some Madden-esqe sound effects which were amusing.

    The second American was better. He was called the day before the interview and told us he was "working from home" and was at DMV so it would be difficult to talk. He knew about half of the answers and presented himself well enough. Then he went on to ask about working from home, how strict the office hours were and so on.

    The male Indian presented himself well answered almost all of the questions correctly, had a solid background doing similar work and spoke excellent English.

    The female Indian spoke in a whisper with a heavy accent, answered about half the questions wrong and was missing many of the skills we were looking for even though they were on her resume.

    We hired the male Indian. He is here on a Visa working through a consulting agency. Could I have survived and trained the 2nd American, sure I think I could have but he had a strong air of entitlement about him. The man we hired was definitely a better fit. If I had more time I could probably have found an American that would fit the role but is it my responsibility to train a consultant just to get an American into the position when there was an able bodied Indian ready, trained and eager for the job?

    I am torn because when you think of the out of work Americans emotionally I want to get them jobs before the immigrants but then I think of many of the out of work Americans I know and they feel they are entitled to the job just because they are here. One friend was an out of work male nurse. He spent his year of unemployment playing online poker rather than searching hard for a job or getting more training. He said unemployment was good enough.

    I am definitely not saying that all Americans that are out of work are like this. Just that there are reasons that some of these people are out of jobs. Kids are coming out of college with useless degrees because they chose to study what they found interesting instead of checking what was in demand. That was their choice but it isn't the countries responsibility to coddle them due to their bad choices. Perhaps their high school councilors, teachers, friends, college advisors, parents, etc could have helped them before they made that decision and helped them avoid their problems.

    I know some here may take this personally and I am sorry for that. I just feel that personal responsibility is a dying concept in America.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    My position remains the same, however. Importing non-citizens to do work that COULD be done, even if at a slightly lesser degree of quality/efficientcy, is something I find reprehensible, a betrayal by Govt. against it's own people, in the pure interests of Business profits.
    It's not at a slightly lesser degree of quality. It's a pass/fail situation. The Phillies could pay Ryan Howard to hit 50 HR or they could pay a double A player to hit 0 HR. there is no cheap friendly halfway solution. You are setting up a false dichotomy where the business HAS to hire someone. they don't. It's not like running a bar where if you don't have a bartender the drinks don't get served. these are nebulous projects and they don't always have to be pursued.

    two more points 1) Recent productivity gains mean they make more with the same amount of labor than they they did in the past. 2) the baby boomers poor money management means the class of 1967 is screwing the class of 2011. it used to be that there were more young people than old people in the work place... now that's flipped, and it's only happened in the last 10 years. Baby boomers are screwing the young harder than immigrants are.

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