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Thread: Presidential Power

  1. #1
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    Presidential Power

    So we currently face two issues of note to this topic:

    1. Our Millitary activity in Libya.

    2. And The Debt Limit Issue

    In both cases, some supporters of the President have made the case that he is not limited in either issue by the Constitution.

    I.e. he can wage his LIbya War withotu congressional approval (War Powers Act is unconstitutional and should be ignored) and can (on his own) raise the debt limit (any attempt to stop him is unconstituional due to 14th amendment).

    So, where do you fall on this debate?

    Is a President free to wage millitary action (War) as he sees fit without limit or oversight/approval by Congress?

    Is a President free to raise teh debt limit alone, without (or despite) the views of Congress?

    Add these to the "is the Presidents Health Car Mandate (forcing individuals by law to buy private products) consitutional" and we have a trifecta of PResidential Power related issues to wrangle over.

    Where do you stand?

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    We appoint representatives of our choosing to keep issues on all three of these as best we can to what we as individuals would like to see the government do.

    The shift in Congress reflected the will of the people more strongly and obviously more recently than the Presidential election.

    If we wanted Dem policies, we'd have let them keep the house.

    I take no issue with avoiding the WPA, as that is foreign policy and thus defense related. I believe our President, as CIC should have the discretion to truly command our military as he sees fit. A bunch of politicians arguing over war in foreign countries does not benefit our men and women abroad nor does it necessarily provide us with the security we do so crave post 9/11.

    The debt limit however, is directly related to the '10 election and the appointment of Conservatives gaining power due to promises of fiscal restraint. The President would literally be abandoning the will of the people in an effort to appease one set of particular constituents.

    If he had one iota of leadership, he'd invest and immerse himself heavily in hammering out a deal and concede favorably to the Republicans whom we elected for this very purpose.

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    Our system of checks and balances is eroding quickly. It's sad, really. The Executive Branch is far more powerful than ever intended to be. As bad as the debt limit stance is, the illegal wars we've waged in recent decades has resulted in the biggest loss we can ever endure - the lives of many dedicated men and women. All dead, not defending their nation, but for politics.

    In an otherwise depressing scenario, at least there is some humor in listening to the hypocrites defend the actions of King Obama after years of railing against King Bush for the same exact behavior.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Revi$_I$l@nd View Post
    The shift in Congress reflected the will of the people more strongly and obviously more recently than the Presidential election.
    .
    laughable

    many people don't even turn out for anything BUT a Presidential election

    as for Warfish's original post they used to say George Washington would declare himself king. they didn't know how many terms he would command and where his power stopped and started. Criticisms of the strength of the executive branch date back to the start of the republic.

    in the end what matters is do they make the right decisions, not are they allowed to make these decisions. nothing Obama has done sets this country back as far as BUsh's 2 pointless wars coupled with tax cuts. a nato jaunt in libya is a walk in the park compared to Iraq or Afghanistan. the 14th ammendment stuff, hopefully it doesn't come to that, but i'd rather have a President trying to govern than a congress trying to derail everything.

    I don't mind the Presidential power, i mind when it's used poorly.
    Last edited by bitonti; 07-05-2011 at 01:32 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bitonti View Post
    I don't mind the Presidential power, i mind when it's used poorly.
    Bit is a perfect example of the problem.

    Many in American politics have become very fond of Tyrants and Tyrany, as long as it's THEIR SIDE in power.

    Their side in power = everythings great, support, support, support.

    The other side is in power = protest, fight, stop, no support.

    It's how we often have the same person making two vastly different positions on the same issue, differing only in who is in power at the time. They'll babble on about the vital differences (lol), but it boils down most to who is in power when X happens.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    Bit is a perfect example of the problem.
    what's the alternative, let Congress have all the power? those of the perpetual 18% approval rating?

    the constitution has separated American power into 3 branches and i dont think it's that different now than it was then. the President commands a huge amount of power and he always has.

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    Bush clearly made the Presidency into a near dictatorship. The debt ceiling was raised 8 straight years, the 2 stupid wars, the unnecessary tax cuts for the rich all turned out to be wrong for America.

    The problem with America now is that a great deal of those decisions have made America into a divided nation. Severely divided. President Obama inherited a mess. One that will take many years to fix.

    In 2010, America did not tell congress to get the debt level down. Those that voted did. America has too many problems right now and the debt level is just one of them. Maybe not even number 1.

    The republicans for the most part got us into this mess in 2002. How can anyone reasonably expect them to get us out?

    What is the Bachmann answer? What is the Romney answer? What is the Pawlenty answer?

    They don't have one either, therefore they do not state what it is. They just attack Obama. That is not an answer.

    We are afforded now with a bunch of idiots to run this nation. If we don' get a grip upon them we will be in worse trouble than ever over the next few election cycles.

    Since this is the cycle that we are in for now, can one wonder why we have an ever growing Police State? The pols in charge are clueless to do anything else but contain the masses.

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    Its funny how all of a sudden all of these "Progressives" suddenly remember the Constitution and give a **** about it in regards to the debt ceiling while conveniently ignoring itin regards to War Powers act, enumerative powers, the right to keep and bear arms, speech codes, etc etc etc.

    Hypocrtitical jokes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bitonti View Post
    laughable

    many minorities don't even turn out for anything BUT a Presidential election involving Obama.
    Fixed

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jet_Engine1 View Post
    Fixed
    Those said 'minorities' voted overwhelmingly for Obama last time. I don't see them doing anything different this time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jetdawgg View Post
    Those said 'minorities' voted overwhelmingly for Obama last time. I don't see them doing anything different this time.
    I agree, thats the point. And in '16, when Obama is done, they'll go back to not really caring again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bitonti View Post
    laughable

    many people don't even turn out for anything BUT a Presidential election
    Almost 91,000,000 people voted in the 2010 midterms. That's nothing to scoff at...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jetdawgg View Post
    Bush clearly made the Presidency into a near dictatorship. The debt ceiling was raised 8 straight years, the 2 stupid wars, the unnecessary tax cuts for the rich all turned out to be wrong for America.
    The guy you voted for continued both wars (one of which your fellow lib Bitoni will tell you that he campaigned to ramp up Afghanistan)

    That same guy also continued those unnecessary tax cuts for the rich. Is Obama a dictator that's wrong for America in the same sense Bush was?

    The problem with America now is that a great deal of those decisions have made America into a divided nation. Severely divided. President Obama inherited a mess. One that will take many years to fix.
    What has Obama done to clean up the mess. See the above. I'm extremely curious how more than halfway through his first term, he can possibly still be blaming the other guy as you are doing for him...

    In 2010, America did not tell congress to get the debt level down. Those that voted did. America has too many problems right now and the debt level is just one of them. Maybe not even number 1.

    The republicans for the most part got us into this mess in 2002. How can anyone reasonably expect them to get us out?
    The Dems controlled the House and Senate beginning in 2006. What did they do to get us out of the mess exactly?

    What is the Bachmann answer? What is the Romney answer? What is the Pawlenty answer?
    If we play the same card that was played against Republicans in 2008, they have to be better than the other guy. What has he done? Amirite?

    They don't have one either, therefore they do not state what it is. They just attack Obama. That is not an answer.
    It's not? You guys were all for it in 2008... That's how Obama got elected...

    We are afforded now with a bunch of idiots to run this nation. If we don' get a grip upon them we will be in worse trouble than ever over the next few election cycles.
    Agreed. But to pretend your guy should not be held accountable is idiotic. The debt limit rises, far higher than it ever did under Bush. You can play with the numbers all you like, citing that the wars were never factored in, etc... But the fact remains healthcare, two wars, military action in Yemen, Syria, Libya, Pakistan, the renewing of the tax cuts for the rich, etc... have all happened under Obama. How is that ANY different? I've yet a lib to explain it...

    Since this is the cycle that we are in for now, can one wonder why we have an ever growing Police State? The pols in charge are clueless to do anything else but contain the masses.
    This is ridiculous and completely off topic. Go fight the good fight against law enforcement in another thread.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jetdawgg View Post
    Bush clearly made the Presidency into a near dictatorship.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    So we currently face two issues of note to this topic:

    1. Our Millitary activity in Libya.

    2. And The Debt Limit Issue

    In both cases, some supporters of the President have made the case that he is not limited in either issue by the Constitution.

    I.e. he can wage his LIbya War withotu congressional approval (War Powers Act is unconstitutional and should be ignored) and can (on his own) raise the debt limit (any attempt to stop him is unconstituional due to 14th amendment).

    So, where do you fall on this debate?

    Is a President free to wage millitary action (War) as he sees fit without limit or oversight/approval by Congress?

    Is a President free to raise teh debt limit alone, without (or despite) the views of Congress?

    Add these to the "is the Presidents Health Car Mandate (forcing individuals by law to buy private products) consitutional" and we have a trifecta of PResidential Power related issues to wrangle over.

    Where do you stand?
    I don't like the fact that a President can operate for 60 days (is that correct?) without Congress. But I've got to say, the biggest mistake of the past several decades (Iraq) was voted on by Congress - so even repealing the War Powers Act would not have corrected that mistake. And I understand the argument that we need the Commander and Chief to have a some type of quick, decisive authority to deal with 21st century threats.

    I'm not all that comfortable with it, but it might just be a necessary evil.

    As for the debt limit, I think the President should not have the power to raise the debt limit without Congress, although I do think the President should have a form of the line item veto so he could at least cut pork.

    I don't understand what you mean by the last paragraph.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SafetyBlitz View Post
    And I understand the argument that we need the Commander and Chief to have a some type of quick, decisive authority to deal with 21st century threats.
    Fantasy talk by Pro-Tyrant types, repeated endlessly till folks start believing it.

    There is no situation in which the President would have to rush to War so fast he couldn't either just do it (i.e. we're invaded en masse) and get support immedaitely after, or get Congressional approval within a few days (almost every other situation).

    For example, other than Congress saying "no" to Libya Warfare, what is holding him up now?

    What Congress has and should be doing is acting as a barrier to Presidential aggression and overreaction or overreaching. They failed (due to bad intel/admin. lying, depending on your own party affliation) with Iraq. Got it right with Afghanistan. And are (currently) getting it wrong in Libya.

    I'm not all that comfortable with it, but it might just be a necessary evil.
    Under what circumstance? Under what circumstance would it be required to act that moment, and not seek Congressional Approval/Decl. of War within say, two weeks? IF the cause is truly rightious, he'll get his support. Rushing only leads to mistakes.

    As for the debt limit, I think the President should not have the power to raise the debt limit without Congress, although I do think the President should have a form of the line item veto so he could at least cut pork.

    I don't understand what you mean by the last paragraph.
    That the mandate is an expansiopn of Federal/Presidential Power?

    Seems pretty clear, when this Law was passed, it granted a new effectively unlimited power to the Federal Govt., the power to make prvate individuals buy a private product the Govt. wants bought. That is a first ever in the U.S., and is a new power being wielded, and is a rather unlimited power at that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    Fantasy talk by Pro-Tyrant types, repeated endlessly till folks start believing it.

    There is no situation in which the President would have to rush to War so fast he couldn't either just do it (i.e. we're invaded en masse) and get support immedaitely after, or get Congressional approval within a few days (almost every other situation).

    For example, other than Congress saying "no" to Libya Warfare, what is holding him up now?

    What Congress has and should be doing is acting as a barrier to Presidential aggression and overreaction or overreaching. They failed (due to bad intel/admin. lying, depending on your own party affliation) with Iraq. Got it right with Afghanistan. And are (currently) getting it wrong in Libya.
    Are you implying I'm a pro-tyrant/fantasyland type?

    I'm not talking specifically about war when I see the need to act - I'm talking precisely about say, a covert operation in Pakistan that was given the go order by the President. Does he need to go to Congress for that?


    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    Under what circumstance? Under what circumstance would it be required to act that moment, and not seek Congressional Approval/Decl. of War within say, two weeks? IF the cause is truly rightious, he'll get his support. Rushing only leads to mistakes.

    As for the debt limit, I think the President should not have the power to raise the debt limit without Congress, although I do think the President should have a form of the line item veto so he could at least cut pork.
    It's good to see we agree on the emboldened part, but I assumed as much anyway as those are two very reasonable positions with broad support among the electorate.

    As for the first part, well, there are a number scenarios but none of them have come to pass.

    Granted this is a 'what if' scenario, but what lets just say India and Pakistan are on the brink of Nuclear War because one country has a general with the launch keys that's gone rogue or been provoked by the other side. Yes, it sounds like a bad Tom Clancy novel, but what if we had the power to remove a certain general from his post by just bombing that SOB with our stealth weapons or drones or sending in a Spec Ops team?

    Does he really have to go to Congress, what if the window to act is say, 12 hours? It's a true judgment call, and I bet a lot of people would not be happy with the President with either call he made, but do we really want to strip the executive of the ability to make that kind of call?

    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    That the mandate is an expansiopn of Federal/Presidential Power?

    Seems pretty clear, when this Law was passed, it granted a new effectively unlimited power to the Federal Govt., the power to make prvate individuals buy a private product the Govt. wants bought. That is a first ever in the U.S., and is a new power being wielded, and is a rather unlimited power at that.
    Obamacare was voted on in Congress, no?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    There is no situation in which the President would have to rush to War so fast he couldn't either just do it (i.e. we're invaded en masse) and get support immedaitely after, or get Congressional approval within a few days (almost every other situation).
    +1,000

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    @Revi$_I$l@nd

    One of the reasons for the debt limit increase is that Obama wants to continue the wars or even expand them, while focusing on things like science, technology, innovation and education. That is something that Bushco clearly let fall to the wayside.

    In 2007 Congress played the Bush card to get them out of the Presidency. Pelosi played Bush like a drum and it worked. The American voting populace overwhelmingly voted for the D's to dump the neocons out of power.

    What we did get though was neocon lite.

    As for the Police State, that is what you are living. Ever view all of the information you provide to FB? Twitter is like GPS, always updating your thoughts and deeds online. The FBI and others viewing your emails.

    That is big government and it costs money to monitor all of that data. The Police State is costing Americans big time tax dollars and adding to the debt and debt limit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jetdawgg View Post
    Those said 'minorities' voted overwhelmingly for Obama last time. I don't see them doing anything different this time.
    And why shouldn't they? They're single-issue voters, and he's still black.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shakin318 View Post
    And why shouldn't they? They're single-issue voters, and he's still black.
    President Obama had a white mother

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