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Thread: Who's Afraid of Ron Paul?

  1. #21
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    The issue, again, is not Ron Pauls policy positions (most of them are good, some of his isolationism is not, as it goes too far into non-engagement).

    The issue is Ron Paul. He has no charisma. He looks like the kind of guy who would lead a religious cult that believes the Mothership is landing tomorrow, and the cool aid is all ready to go. He has some spotty background (racism claims). He has a thin legislative record for such a long-time representative. And he has accomplished little of his claimed agenda as a rep, showing he cannot lead, and cannot convince others of the rightiousness of his causes.

    The libertarian/libertarian-conservative movement is good.

    Ron Paul himself is not.

  2. #22
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    [QUOTE=JetPotato;4060984]The GOP is so lost right now, that the race already is Obama's[/QUOTE]
    You keep saying this.

    Any particular reason why?

    I mean, if you worked for the GOP organizational structure - you would be depressed right now?

    The fact of the matter is the Republicans trounced the Democrats in 2010 directly because of the shortcomings of the national Democratic - things have only gone worse for the country since.

    I have news for you JetPotato, if our country ambles along in the same direction at the same pace (and, economically this might be a best case scenario) Obama is toast.

  3. #23
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    [QUOTE=sackdance;4061032]You keep saying this.

    Any particular reason why?

    I mean, if you worked for the GOP organizational structure - you would be depressed right now?

    The fact of the matter is the Republicans trounced the Democrats in 2010 directly because of the shortcomings of the national Democratic - things have only gone worse for the country since.

    I have news for you JetPotato, if our country ambles along in the same direction at the same pace (and, economically this might be a best case scenario) Obama is toast.[/QUOTE]

    The facts point to a very fickle electorate who have kicked Republicans to the curb for Democrats in 06 and came back 4 years later and kicked Democrats to the curb.

    Obama has called the Republican bluff on deficit reductions. The White house isn’t oblivious to the public anxiety regarding the deficit. Obama has already stepped up to come to a compromise on the debt ceiling which includes a budget plan that both cuts entitlements and increases taxes in a manner that most of the public might view as sensible.

    The Republicans have pledged themselves into a corner to the point they might actually let this opportunity for real tax reform and major cuts in entitlements go by the wayside for partisan politics. If the debt ceiling drags on and the markets wobble about 100 million Americans are going to get statements that reflect just what default means.

    I could easily see SS and Medicare recipients absolute throttle the Republicans at the polls if they put up a candidate that has pledged themselves into a box that continues gridlock and threatens benefits.

    There will be debates and the President has redefined the election unless the Republicans actually come to their senses on the debt ceiling. Having Presidential candidates make pledges that box them into a corner isn’t going to play well with moderates and independents. It might not play well with people who see themselves as Tea Party conservatives on deficits.

    Of course if the Republicans actually nominate a moderate who hasn't pledged themselves into a corner and the economy is in the tank Obama is going to have a tough time convincing the electorate that he deserves another 4 years.
    Last edited by Winstonbiggs; 07-13-2011 at 10:22 AM.

  4. #24
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    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;4061057]The facts point to a very fickle electorate who have kicked Republicans to the curb for Democrats in 06 and came back 4 years later and kicked Democrats to the curb.

    Obama has called the Republican bluff on deficit reductions. The White house isn’t oblivious to the public anxiety regarding the deficit. Obama has already stepped up to come to a compromise on the debt ceiling which includes a budget plan that both cuts entitlements and increases taxes in a manner that most of the public might view as sensible.

    The Republicans have pledged themselves into a corner to the point they might actually let this opportunity for real tax reform and major cuts in entitlements go by the wayside for partisan politics. If the debt ceiling drags on and the markets wobble about 100 million Americans are going to get statements that reflect just what default means.

    I could easily see SS and Medicare recipients absolute throttle the Republicans at the polls if they put up a candidate that has pledged themselves into a box that continues gridlock and threatens benefits.

    There will be debates and the President has redefined the election unless the Republicans actually come to their senses on the debt ceiling. Having Presidential candidates make pledges that box them into a corner isn’t going to play well with moderates and independents. It might not play well with people who see themselves as Tea Party conservatives on deficits.

    Of course if the Republicans actually nominate a moderate who hasn't pledged themselves into a corner and the economy is in the tank Obama is going to have a tough time convincing the electorate that he deserves another 4 years.[/QUOTE]
    Wow. With all that bluff calling and stepping up Obama must be one hell of a president.

    Like I said, it's a great time to be a GOP candidate.

    And one more thing, Obama isn't cutting any entitlements. He hasn't even earned the right to be believed in that department.

  5. #25
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    [QUOTE=sackdance;4061032]You keep saying this.

    Any particular reason why? [/QUOTE]

    Oh, only because the GOP doesn't have a single viable, unifying candidate.

    [QUOTE=sackdance;4061032]
    I mean, if you worked for the GOP organizational structure - you would be depressed right now? [/QUOTE]

    yes

    [QUOTE=sackdance;4061032]
    The fact of the matter is the Republicans trounced the Democrats in 2010 directly because of the shortcomings of the national Democratic - things have only gone worse for the country since. [/QUOTE]

    Midterm elections in which GOP voters are highly motivated are very different than Presidental elections, where turnout is much higher. You realize too how difficult it is to defeat incumbents.

    [QUOTE=sackdance;4061032]
    I have news for you JetPotato, if our country ambles along in the same direction at the same pace (and, economically this might be a best case scenario) [B]Obama is toast[/B].[/QUOTE]

    I hope you are right. But I fear you are wrong.

  6. #26
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    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;4061057]The facts point to a very fickle electorate who have kicked Republicans to the curb for Democrats in 06 and came back 4 years later and kicked Democrats to the curb.

    Obama has called the Republican bluff on deficit reductions. The White house isn’t oblivious to the public anxiety regarding the deficit. Obama has already stepped up to come to a compromise on the debt ceiling which includes a budget plan that both cuts entitlements and increases taxes in a manner that most of the public might view as sensible.

    The Republicans have pledged themselves into a corner to the point they might actually let this opportunity for real tax reform and major cuts in entitlements go by the wayside for partisan politics. If the debt ceiling drags on and the markets wobble about 100 million Americans are going to get statements that reflect just what default means.

    I could easily see SS and Medicare recipients absolute throttle the Republicans at the polls if they put up a candidate that has pledged themselves into a box that continues gridlock and threatens benefits.

    There will be debates and the President has redefined the election unless the Republicans actually come to their senses on the debt ceiling. Having Presidential candidates make pledges that box them into a corner isn’t going to play well with moderates and independents. It might not play well with people who see themselves as Tea Party conservatives on deficits.

    Of course if the Republicans actually nominate a moderate who hasn't pledged themselves into a corner and the economy is in the tank Obama is going to have a tough time convincing the electorate that he deserves another 4 years.[/QUOTE]

    Well said. Obama has played out Clinton, Part 2, in calling the Republican bluff. McConnell has responded by trying to give the hot potato back to Obama re raising the debt ceiling. The Tea Party will absolutely destroy itself if it continues on the course of "who blinks first." They will be viewed as not only holding average citizen interests hostage for their ideological gain, but will be run out on a rail if Social Security, Veterans, and Disability checks are not delivered due to the Ransom the Nation strategy being perpetrated. As Gingrich said back in 1998 under similar circumstances, "What's your solution? If don't have one, vote "yes.""

    I too would like to see a serious moderate Republican candidate run against Obama. Obama has been a mediocre president from my perspective (not the unmitigated disaster that our far right posters would claim), and deserves to be challenged. If the best the Repubs can put forward is Michelle Bachman, they might as well go home. She is already being dismissed by people like Pawlenty as an insubstantial candidate with zero record of accomplishment as a Congresswoman. After the Repubs eat their own, it will be interesting to see who's left.

  7. #27
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    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;4061057]The facts point to a very fickle electorate who have kicked Republicans to the curb for Democrats in 06 and came back 4 years later and kicked Democrats to the curb.

    Obama has called the Republican bluff on deficit reductions. The White house isn’t oblivious to the public anxiety regarding the deficit. Obama has already stepped up to come to a compromise on the debt ceiling which includes a budget plan that both cuts entitlements and increases taxes in a manner that most of the public might view as sensible.

    The Republicans have pledged themselves into a corner to the point they might actually let this opportunity for real tax reform and major cuts in entitlements go by the wayside for partisan politics. If the debt ceiling drags on and the markets wobble about 100 million Americans are going to get statements that reflect just what default means.

    I could easily see SS and Medicare recipients absolute throttle the Republicans at the polls if they put up a candidate that has pledged themselves into a box that continues gridlock and threatens benefits.

    There will be debates and the President has redefined the election unless the Republicans actually come to their senses on the debt ceiling. Having Presidential candidates make pledges that box them into a corner isn’t going to play well with moderates and independents. It might not play well with people who see themselves as Tea Party conservatives on deficits.

    Of course if the Republicans actually nominate a moderate who hasn't pledged themselves into a corner and the economy is in the tank Obama is going to have a tough time convincing the electorate that he deserves another 4 years.[/QUOTE]

    So many issues with this post I dont know where to begin. To start please provide a link to the compromise plan by Obama that cuts entitlements with specifics including actual numbers.

    Next, you say that Obama has come to terms with American anxiety over deficits. How so? Was this before or after he presented a budget to the Senate that actually increased the deficit significantly. The one that was rejected 97-0? Or did he come to terms more recently? Are you referring here to a new budget proposed by Obama since then? Please provide link if so.

    Finally you think the American people will really pin the debt ceiling negatives to Republicans because they refused to play Obama's class warfare game by instituting new taxes on private jet owners? That tax is a money loser designed for political purposes only. The last time the govt instituted a tax like that on Yachts it actually lost money because the great american Yacht industry suffered and jobs were lost or shipped overseas.

    Finally on the presidency issue Romney is polling ahead of Obama in Florida 52-38% and tied with him in solid D Pennsylvania 44-44. For all of the posturing, Romney will likely get the nod out of pure electability.

  8. #28
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    [QUOTE=chiefst2000;4061131]So many issues with this post I dont know where to begin. To start please provide a link to the compromise plan by Obama that cuts entitlements with specifics including actual numbers.

    Next, you say that Obama has come to terms with American anxiety over deficits. How so? Was this before or after he presented a budget to the Senate that actually increased the deficit significantly. The one that was rejected 97-0? Or did he come to terms more recently? Are you referring here to a new budget proposed by Obama since then? Please provide link if so.

    Finally you think the American people will really pin the debt ceiling negatives to Republicans because they refused to play Obama's class warfare game by instituting new taxes on private jet owners? That tax is a money loser designed for political purposes only. The last time the govt instituted a tax like that on Yachts it actually lost money because the great american Yacht industry suffered and jobs were lost or shipped overseas.

    Finally on the presidency issue Romney is polling ahead of Obama in Florida 52-38% and tied with him in solid D Pennsylvania 44-44. For all of the posturing, Romney will likely get the nod out of pure electability.[/QUOTE]

    [url]http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/05/opinion/05brooks.html?ref=davidbrooks[/url]

    [QUOTE]The Mother of All No-Brainers

    By DAVID BROOKS

    Published: July 4, 2011



    The Republicans have changed American politics since they took control of the House of Representatives. They have put spending restraint and debt reduction at the top of the national agenda. They have sparked a discussion on entitlement reform. They have turned a bill to raise the debt limit into an opportunity to put the U.S. on a stable fiscal course.


    Republican leaders have also proved to be effective negotiators. They have been tough and inflexible and forced the Democrats to come to them. [B]The Democrats have agreed to tie budget cuts to the debt ceiling bill. They have agreed not to raise tax rates. They have agreed to a roughly 3-to-1 rate of spending cuts to revenue increases, an astonishing concession.
    [/B]
    Moreover, many important Democrats are open to a truly large budget deal. [B]President Obama has a strong incentive to reach a deal so he can campaign in 2012 as a moderate. The Senate majority leader, Harry Reid, has talked about supporting a debt reduction measure of $3 trillion or even $4 trillion if the Republicans meet him part way. There are Democrats in the White House and elsewhere who would be willing to accept Medicare cuts if the Republicans would be willing to increase revenues. [/B]

    If the Republican Party were a normal party, it would take advantage of this amazing moment. It is being offered the deal of the century: [B]trillions of dollars in spending cuts in exchange for a few hundred billion dollars of revenue increases.
    [/B]
    A normal Republican Party would seize the opportunity to put a long-term limit on the growth of government. It would seize the opportunity to put the country on a sound fiscal footing. It would seize the opportunity to do these things without putting any real crimp in economic growth.

    [B]The party is not being asked to raise marginal tax rates in a way that might pervert incentives. On the contrary, Republicans are merely being asked to close loopholes and eliminate tax expenditures that are themselves distortionary.
    [/B]
    This, as I say, is the mother of all no-brainers.

    But we can have no confidence that the Republicans will seize this opportunity. That’s because the Republican Party may no longer be a normal party. Over the past few years, it has been infected by a faction that is more of a psychological protest than a practical, governing alternative.

    [B]The members of this movement do not accept the logic of compromise, no matter how sweet the terms. If you ask them to raise taxes by an inch in order to cut government by a foot, they will say no. If you ask them to raise taxes by an inch to cut government by a yard, they will still say no. [/B]

    The members of this movement do not accept the legitimacy of scholars and intellectual authorities. A thousand impartial experts may tell them that a default on the debt would have calamitous effects, far worse than raising tax revenues a bit. But the members of this movement refuse to believe it.

    The members of this movement have no sense of moral decency. A nation makes a sacred pledge to pay the money back when it borrows money. But the members of this movement talk blandly of default and are willing to stain their nation’s honor.

    The members of this movement have no economic theory worthy of the name. Economists have identified many factors that contribute to economic growth, ranging from the productivity of the work force to the share of private savings that is available for private investment. Tax levels matter, but they are far from the only or even the most important factor.

    But to members of this movement, tax levels are everything. Members of this tendency have taken a small piece of economic policy and turned it into a sacred fixation. They are willing to cut education and research to preserve tax expenditures. Manufacturing employment is cratering even as output rises, but members of this movement somehow believe such problems can be addressed so long as they continue to worship their idol.

    Over the past week, Democrats have stopped making concessions. They are coming to the conclusion that if the Republicans are fanatics then they better be fanatics, too.

    The struggles of the next few weeks are about what sort of party the G.O.P. is — a normal conservative party or an odd protest movement that has separated itself from normal governance, the normal rules of evidence and the ancient habits of our nation.

    [B]If the debt ceiling talks fail, independent voters will see that Democrats were willing to compromise but Republicans were not. If responsible Republicans don’t take control, independents will conclude that Republican fanaticism caused this default. They will conclude that Republicans are not fit to govern.
    [/B]
    And they will be right.
    [/QUOTE]

    Laugh all you want but as a died in the wool right wing conservative you are simply blind to the reality. The President has allready outflanked the hard core and put moderate Republicans on the run. They aren't going to take a good deal because they don't give a crap about the country just their own agenda. It won't wash with Independents and Blue dog Democrats who elect Republicans in general elections.

  9. #29
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    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;4061161][url]http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/05/opinion/05brooks.html?ref=davidbrooks[/url]



    Laugh all you want but as a died in the wool right wing conservative you are simply blind to the reality. The President has allready outflanked the hard core and put moderate Republicans on the run. They aren't going to take a good deal because they don't give a crap about the country just their own agenda. It won't wash with Independents and Blue dog Democrats who elect Republicans in general elections.[/QUOTE]

    Again there are zero specifics in this opinion article. What specific revenue increases were proposed? What changes to entitlements were proposed? No specifics. This article is based on another of Obama's famous speeches. Big on grandeur and tiny on facts or specifics. Where is Obama's plan? What are the details?

  10. #30
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    [QUOTE=chiefst2000;4061171]Again there are zero specifics in this opinion article. What specific revenue increases were proposed? What changes to entitlements were proposed? No specifics. This article is based on another of Obama's famous speeches. Big on grandeur and tiny on facts or specifics. Where is Obama's plan? What are the details?[/QUOTE]

    And where is the Republican plan that can actually be run on in a general election and win? The Ryan plan, the elderly will blow up the Republican House based on that attack on SS and Medicare and no taxes on the rich while oil companies and corn farmers getting record prices get tax subsidizes? Think again.

  11. #31
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    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;4061175]And where is the Republican plan that can actually be run on in a general election and win? The Ryan plan, the elderly will blow up the Republican House based on that attack on SS and Medicare and no taxes on the rich while oil companies and corn farmers getting record prices get tax subsidizes? Think again.[/QUOTE]

    I have spoken with the "elderly" aka my grandparents and my in laws. They greatly prefer the Ryan plan because it guarantees their coverage wont change for their lifetimes. The ones that should be concerned are those under 55. The problem is that for those of us under 55 we wont get any coverage under the Obama do nothing plan as the system will simply go bankrupt in 10 years. My grandparents are very nervous about that possibility. They are also concerned that Obamacare pulls half a trillion from the Medicare pool making insolvency a more near term worry.

    I am absolutely against all ethanol and farm subsidies. In addition if there are special tax breaks being given to oil companies "i havent seen any evidence of this" I would be all for eliminating them.

  12. #32
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    [QUOTE=long island leprechaun;4060833]Libertarians... like herding cats. They'll never constitute a party. How can they? Anarchy is not a system. Libertarianism is only valuable as a counter thrust to an existing governmental structure. It has no substance as form of governance.[/QUOTE]

    Anarchy is practiced by Anarchists, not by Libertarians. I thought it was obvious, but.... :dunno:

  13. #33
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    [QUOTE=JetPotato;4061110]Oh, only because the GOP doesn't have a single viable, unifying candidate.



    [/QUOTE]


    You're a bit premature (no offense). :D

  14. #34
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    What Obama's record fundraising haul means for Election 2012

    [QUOTE=sackdance;4061032]You keep saying this.

    Any particular reason why?

    I mean, if you worked for the GOP organizational structure - you would be depressed right now?

    The fact of the matter is the Republicans trounced the Democrats in 2010 directly because of the shortcomings of the national Democratic - things have only gone worse for the country since.

    I have news for you JetPotato, if our country ambles along in the same direction at the same pace (and, economically this might be a best case scenario) Obama is toast.[/QUOTE]

    [QUOTE]President Obama raised $47 million for his campaign and another $38 million for the Democratic Party during the second quarter of 2011 – a record haul for this early in the election cycle.

    Washington
    President Obama raised more than $47 million in the second quarter of 2011 for his reelection effort, campaign manager Jim Messina revealed Wednesday.

    The number was a record for second-quarter fundraising in the year before an election, but did not break the all-time record for quarterly fundraising in a pre-election year. President George W. Bush holds that mark: $50 million in the third quarter of 2003 and $47.5 million in the fourth quarter of that year.

    [B][COLOR="Red"]But Mr. Obama’s haul likely surpassed that of the entire Republican field. [/COLOR][/B]Combining the known fundraising totals, Republican candidates brought in $35.5 million. Rep. Michele Bachmann of Minnesota, who announced her candidacy late in the quarter, has yet to report. Reports are due on Friday. The top GOP fundraiser, former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney, raised $18 million in the quarter.

    Analysts attribute the top candidates’ good but not amazing fundraising numbers to the struggling economy. This election cycle will also feature unprecedented fundraising by independent groups, so donors have more options than ever as they choose how to put their skin in the game. And in the end, the state of the economy will be the top factor in determining whether Obama wins reelection – not how much money he raised or how many people donated.

    [B][COLOR="red"]Still, the president did get a lot of people to give him money.[/COLOR][/B] Obama’s joint fundraising effort for himself and the Democratic National Committee ($86 million total) brought in donations from 552,462 people. The average contribution was $69, and 98 percent of donors gave less than $250.

    “We did this from the bottom up,” Mr. Messina said in a video released early Wednesday. “We didn’t accept one single dollar from Washington lobbyists or special-interest PACs.”

    The Republican National Committee sought to turn the Obama campaign’s money announcement into a political negative: “Too bad for the 14 million unemployed that Obama is more focused on raising cash for his own political future than America’s,” the RNC said in a statement.[/QUOTE]

    [url]http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Elections/President/2011/0713/What-Obama-s-record-fundraising-haul-means-for-Election-2012[/url]

    Even Ron Paul will have difficulty against this kind of money

  15. #35
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    [QUOTE=quantum;4061281]You're a bit premature (no offense). :D[/QUOTE]
    Premature, to put it mildly. The GOP field isn't even finalized yet and won't be in full swing to win over voters for some time.

    And Obama is pretty much presiding over a depression, the more time elapses, the more he needs to pin economic failure on Bush. While defending all the ignored/broken campaign promises?

    Provided Paul doesn't steal the "Anyone-But-Obama" vote as a third party candidate, and I can totally see this happening by the way, it will be the GOP in a walk.

    The electorate doesn't need hocus pocus to figure out how f'd our economy is.

  16. #36
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    [QUOTE=chiefst2000;4061187]I have spoken with the "elderly" aka my grandparents and my in laws. They greatly prefer the Ryan plan because it guarantees their coverage wont change for their lifetimes. The ones that should be concerned are those under 55. The problem is that for those of us under 55 we wont get any coverage under the Obama do nothing plan as the system will simply go bankrupt in 10 years. My grandparents are very nervous about that possibility. They are also concerned that Obamacare pulls half a trillion from the Medicare pool making insolvency a more near term worry.

    I am absolutely against all ethanol and farm subsidies. In addition if there are special tax breaks being given to oil companies "i havent seen any evidence of this" I would be all for eliminating them.[/QUOTE]

    The Ryan plan is a winner for Democrats. The republicans got killed who went back to their districts with it. Medicare is done under Ryan. No one will be able to buy affordable health care with a voucher. It's simply a way for insurance companies to have a rate system for the sick and the healthy with the sick out of luck. Insurance only works when you have a pool of both high and low cost insured. An elderly pool doesn't exist under the Ryan plan.

    No doubt the current system is unsustainable but the Ryan plan isn't going to do anything to structurally change the way health care is delivered to get costs under control. It will simply ration health care to those who don't need it. The delivery system needs wholesale changes and the Ryan plan doesn't address that at all. The big lie that both parties are hiding behind is we don't need to change the delivery we do.
    Last edited by Winstonbiggs; 07-13-2011 at 02:41 PM.

  17. #37
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    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;4061359]The Ryan plan is a winner for Democrats. The republicans got killed who went back to their districts with it. Medicare is done under Ryan. No one will be able to buy affordable health care with a voucher. It's simply a way for insurance companies to have a rate system for the sick and the healthy with the sick out of luck. Insurance only works when you have a pool of both high and low cost insured. An elderly pool doesn't exist under the Ryan plan.

    No doubt the current system is unsustainable but the Ryan plan isn't going to do anything to structurally change the way health care is delivered to get costs under control. It will simply ration health care to those who don't need it. The delivery system needs wholesale changes and the Ryan plan doesn't address that at all. The big lie that both parties are hiding behind is we don't need to change the delivery we do.[/QUOTE]

    The Ryan plan for Medicare needs some work but it is a better option than doing nothing. The Medicaid plan on the Ryan Plan is solid. You say that healthcare under the Ryan Plan wont be affordable but that is difficult to know. I agree that we need major changes to the delivery system but I think the possibility was squandered when Obama used his super majorities to pass the unaffordable health care act. A plan which did everything BUT address healthcare affordability.

    I will paint my personal scenario for you. I pay $22,000 per year for basic insurance for my family. This includes $2000 per person deductables and $50 copays. I just got a letter in the mail that the rate will be going up another 20% at renewal time. That will bring my cost up to $27,000 per year. As a small business with 5 employees I am forbidden from grouping with other small business and getting a larger pool of people. I am forbidden from purchasing a plan from ny neighboring state that is offered for half the price as well.

    Now to the business side. I also have a small interest in a newly opened hospitality business. It is a small hotel that employs around 65 people. The margins on that business are a razor thin 3-4%. With the healthcare mandate from Obama care we will need to lay off enough workers to get below the 50 person threshold before the mandate kicks in. The alternative is to shut it down. Those folks will lose their jobs. Every Applebees/Chilis/Diner/Restaurant/Hotel will be facing similar situations and most will simply eliminate workers over the 50 employee threshold. Similarly businesses thinking of expansion and growth will need to calculate the cost of the Obamacare mandates when running risk reward scenarios with regards to expansion. This is a complete disaster for the economy and real headwind to job growth.

    The reason I mention this is because people like Obama that have never run a business have no clue how the regulations and mandates they throw against the wall effect actual real world business. All this political posturing around the fake spending cuts being proposed by the Dem is just that. Fake garbage designed to fool the masses. Everyone knows that cuts are only relevant in the year they are made. Tax increases are generally permanent and structural. That's why the GOP are wisely opposing any tax increases. Those will most definately be permanent.

  18. #38
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    [QUOTE=chiefst2000;4061406]The Ryan plan for Medicare needs some work but it is a better option than doing nothing. The Medicaid plan on the Ryan Plan is solid. You say that healthcare under the Ryan Plan wont be affordable but that is difficult to know. I agree that we need major changes to the delivery system but I think the possibility was squandered when Obama used his super majorities to pass the unaffordable health care act. A plan which did everything BUT address healthcare affordability.

    I will paint my personal scenario for you. I pay $22,000 per year for basic insurance for my family. This includes $2000 per person deductables and $50 copays. I just got a letter in the mail that the rate will be going up another 20% at renewal time. That will bring my cost up to $27,000 per year. As a small business with 5 employees I am forbidden from grouping with other small business and getting a larger pool of people. I am forbidden from purchasing a plan from ny neighboring state that is offered for half the price as well.

    Now to the business side. I also have a small interest in a newly opened hospitality business. It is a small hotel that employs around 65 people. The margins on that business are a razor thin 3-4%. With the healthcare mandate from Obama care we will need to lay off enough workers to get below the 50 person threshold before the mandate kicks in. The alternative is to shut it down. Those folks will lose their jobs. Every Applebees/Chilis/Diner/Restaurant/Hotel will be facing similar situations and most will simply eliminate workers over the 50 employee threshold. Similarly businesses thinking of expansion and growth will need to calculate the cost of the Obamacare mandates when running risk reward scenarios with regards to expansion. This is a complete disaster for the economy and real headwind to job growth.

    The reason I mention this is because people like Obama that have never run a business have no clue how the regulations and mandates they throw against the wall effect actual real world business. All this political posturing around the fake spending cuts being proposed by the Dem is just that. Fake garbage designed to fool the masses. Everyone knows that cuts are only relevant in the year they are made. Tax increases are generally permanent and structural. That's why the GOP are wisely opposing any tax increases. Those will most definately be permanent.[/QUOTE]

    Doing nothing isn't the democrats plan. They plan to starve Medicare to change the delivery for everyone. The Ryan plan starves the less then wealthy from getting care at all at the expense of maintaining the same delivery system.

    Neither plan is honest or transparent on that we agree completely.

  19. #39
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    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;4061420]Doing nothing isn't the democrats plan. They plan to starve Medicare to change the delivery for everyone. The Ryan plan starves the less then wealthy from getting care at all at the expense of maintaining the same delivery system.

    Neither plan is honest or transparent on that we agree completely.[/QUOTE]

    The Ryan plan actually had additional subsidies for those unable to pay. The means testing is troubling to me because it punishes responsible people that lived within their means and saved money for retirement but oh well. Libs will continue to say Republicans hate poor people.

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    [QUOTE=chiefst2000;4061491]The Ryan plan actually had additional subsidies for those unable to pay. The means testing is troubling to me because it punishes responsible people that lived within their means and saved money for retirement but oh well. Libs will continue to say Republicans hate poor people.[/QUOTE]

    It's not about hate for the poor or the rich, it's about ending the concept of covering Seniors universally. As seniors age and their income drops and medical expenses go up Ryan's plan will simply fail them completely.

    Without a completely different method of delivering the care we are screwed. Ryan has no mechanism at all for that, Obama at least has death panels.

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