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Thread: Europe

  1. #1
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    Europe

    Socialism in Europe is really doing so well, Spain, Portugal, Greece are broke and they are bringing everyone else down. Looks like we will be next. BTW they tax like there is no tomorrow. Look in the mirror USA your next!

  2. #2
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    Italy and Spain actually aren't all that bad. Italy actually runs a budget surplus - yes they have a massive debt compared to GDP, but, yeah there's that surplus.

    The USA does not have a surplus and is nowhere near getting close to one - it also has a shocking level of debt.

    Couldn't call Italy "socialist" given their proporitional government thing they have going on. They have extreme right wing and extreme left-wing people in their Parliament and a lot of people inbetween.

    Spain? Socialist? lol - you must learn your history my friend. Franco isn't that far in the past and his shadow hangs long and dark over the country. Franco was about as far right as you can get given he was a fascist and led the longest surviving facsist government the world has ever seen.

    Like the attempt though - Europe is indeed the place where socialism arose, but its also the place where the polar opposite did as well. The "socialist Europeans" tag is basically rubbish given the huge diversity of the place.

  3. #3
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    [QUOTE=Black Death;4097089]Italy and Spain actually aren't all that bad. Italy actually runs a budget surplus - yes they have a massive debt compared to GDP, but, yeah there's that surplus.

    The USA does not have a surplus and is nowhere near getting close to one - it also has a shocking level of debt.

    Couldn't call Italy "socialist" given their proporitional government thing they have going on. They have extreme right wing and extreme left-wing people in their Parliament and a lot of people inbetween.

    Spain? Socialist? lol - you must learn your history my friend. Franco isn't that far in the past and his shadow hangs long and dark over the country. Franco was about as far right as you can get given he was a fascist and led the longest surviving facsist government the world has ever seen.

    Like the attempt though - Europe is indeed the place where socialism arose, but its also the place where the polar opposite did as well. The "socialist Europeans" tag is basically rubbish given the huge diversity of the place.[/QUOTE]

    Thanks for the info!

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    [QUOTE=MnJetFan;4097165]Thanks for the info![/QUOTE]

    Sorry, mate - didn't mean to "score points" off you. The funny thing is is that the Italian Parliament is known for being (by and large) a complete circus. You have people who are the total opposite of one another politically in the same chamber - unlike places like the USA where the Dems and Repubs are actually pretty close politically - its like getting rabid Jets, Pats and Jets fans round for a party - there are going to be issues. Can't remember how many changes of governments they've had since WW2 but its a huge number compared to other countries. When I think of "unstable" politically I think of the Italians.

    Lets face it - it wasn't that long ago where the Italian Parliament featured a well known porn star "La Cicolina" or whoever it was, who flashed her assets while Parliament was sitting. The current Prime-Minister is just a total joke - known for running orgies at his multiple residences and owns a massive media empire. If you can imagine a priapic Rupert Murdoch or Ted Turner as your President that's a similar comparison.

    The Italian government is just a joke, yet they've actually managed to get their fiscal house in order - what the hell does that say about the United States who can't? What an abysmal situation you and your fellow citizens have had to put up with, from both sides of politics.

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    The PSOE has governed Spain for nearly a decade...

    Not sure how or why you're trying to argue Spain isn't a socialist nation...

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    [QUOTE=AlwaysGreenAlwaysWhite;4097238]The PSOE has governed Spain for nearly a decade...

    Not sure how or why you're trying to argue Spain isn't a socialist nation...[/QUOTE]

    I know Spain has a "left-leaning" ruling party, but are you serious in calling them "socialist"?

    The current government lost power to a right-wing coalition who lost because of the Madrid Bombings in 2004. The country has been held by more nominal right-wing parties than yours has since World War Two, and that's a fact.

    Only an idiot would call the United States right now as "socialist" given its led by the "left-leaning" party - but yeah, keep on calling Spain socialist. :rolleyes:

  7. #7
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    [QUOTE=Black Death;4097214]Sorry, mate - didn't mean to "score points" off you. The funny thing is is that the Italian Parliament is known for being (by and large) a complete circus. You have people who are the total opposite of one another politically in the same chamber - unlike places like the USA where the Dems and Repubs are actually pretty close politically - its like getting rabid Jets, Pats and Jets fans round for a party - there are going to be issues. Can't remember how many changes of governments they've had since WW2 but its a huge number compared to other countries. When I think of "unstable" politically I think of the Italians.

    Lets face it - it wasn't that long ago where the Italian Parliament featured a well known porn star "La Cicolina" or whoever it was, who flashed her assets while Parliament was sitting. The current Prime-Minister is just a total joke - known for running orgies at his multiple residences and owns a massive media empire. If you can imagine a priapic Rupert Murdoch or Ted Turner as your President that's a similar comparison.

    The Italian government is just a joke, yet they've actually managed to get their fiscal house in order - what the hell does that say about the United States who can't? What an abysmal situation you and your fellow citizens have had to put up with, from both sides of politics.[/QUOTE]

    When people vote for morons you get morons!

  8. #8
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    so how do explain Germany, Finland, Norway, Sweden etc ?

    it's not about socialism it's about having a responsible gov't.

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    [QUOTE=Black Death;4097265]Only an idiot would call the United States right now as "socialist" given its led by the "left-leaning" party - but yeah, keep on calling Spain socialist. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

    You are absolutely clueless...

    Please look up social democracy, the European socialist parties that PSOE is tied directly to and a few of the PSOE beliefs and get back to me.

    It has nothing to do with the fact that they're "left-leaning"... It has everything to do with the fact that the entire party is openly a part of socialist organizations and promotes socialist agendas...

    Jesus dude. It's almost like you jumped into this without even knowing who was in control of Spain's government.

  10. #10
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    [QUOTE=bitonti;4097459]so how do explain Germany, Finland, Norway, Sweden etc ?

    it's not about socialism it's about having a responsible gov't.[/QUOTE]

    Just about every other country with a Triple A rating has a greater degree of socialism than the United States.

    It's a stupid argument to point out Spain and Greece, and neglect Germany and Sweden. Bitonti is dead right on this.

  11. #11
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    [QUOTE=AlwaysGreenAlwaysWhite;4097609]You are absolutely clueless...

    Please look up social democracy, the European socialist parties that PSOE is tied directly to and a few of the PSOE beliefs and get back to me.

    It has nothing to do with the fact that they're "left-leaning"... It has everything to do with the fact that the entire party is openly a part of socialist organizations and promotes socialist agendas...

    Jesus dude. It's almost like you jumped into this without even knowing who was in control of Spain's government.[/QUOTE]


    Actually it is you who is clueless about European politics. There are parties in all European countries that call themselves "socialist, social democrat" or something else to that effect. It does not make them a socialist in the Marxist sense of the word. From Europe the Dems and the Reps in the US seem like right and far right (and now with the even more far right tea party as well) I guess that's why some of you guys see every left leaning party in europe as a "socialist".

    To give an example from Turkey; our main opposition party calls itself a Social Democratic party and is a member of Socialists International. However it is also a very nationalist party which rejects unversalism which is one of the very basic tenets of socialism.


    And +1 to Bitonti and Safety Blitz.

  12. #12
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    [QUOTE=The Turk;4098208]Actually it is you who is clueless about European politics. There are parties in all European countries that call themselves "socialist, social democrat" or something else to that effect. It does not make them a socialist in the Marxist sense of the word. From Europe the Dems and the Reps in the US seem like right and far right (and now with the even more far right tea party as well) I guess that's why some of you guys see every left leaning party in europe as a "socialist".

    To give an example from Turkey; our main opposition party calls itself a Social Democratic party and is a member of Socialists International. However it is also a very nationalist party which rejects unversalism which is one of the very basic tenets of socialism.


    And +1 to Bitonti and Safety Blitz.[/QUOTE]

    Is the PSOE a socialist group or not...

  13. #13
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    [QUOTE=AlwaysGreenAlwaysWhite;4098592]Is the PSOE a socialist group or not...[/QUOTE]

    not every issue can be discussed in yes/no questions, you are oversimplifying it

    yes it is a leftist party, no I would not call them a socialist paty.


    Per wiki:

    [QUOTE]
    The PSOE was founded with the purpose of representing the interests of the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_class"]working class[/URL] born from the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_Revolution"]Industrial Revolution[/URL] with the declared objective of achieving [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism"]socialism[/URL], and inspired by the revolutionary principles of [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxism"]Marxism[/URL].
    After the 1979 extraordinary congress, the PSOE renounced Marxism as its main ideology, becoming a social-democratic party. [B][U]Currently, the party has moved away from [/U][/B][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_politics"][B]left-wing politics[/B][/URL][B][U], adopting a [/U][/B][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Way_(centrism)"][B]Third Way[/B][/URL][B][U] approach and supporting free-market policies, including reforms to curtail the Spanish [/U][/B][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_state"][B]welfare state[/B][/URL][/QUOTE]


    And you're also ignoring the historical context, in spain the opposition to socialism did not come from free market advocate liberals but from royalists or fascists. Which is why at a time in their history the socialists were actually the closest party to the ideals of liberty.

  14. #14
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    [QUOTE=The Turk;4098636]not every issue can be discussed in yes/no questions, you are oversimplifying it

    yes it is a leftist party, no I would not call them a socialist paty.


    Per wiki:




    And you're also ignoring the historical context, in spain the opposition to socialism did not come from free market advocate liberals but from royalists or fascists. Which is why at a time in their history the socialists were actually the closest party to the ideals of liberty.[/QUOTE]

    If you want to argue the degree of socialism, that's all well and good...

    A party backed by ideals to eliminate as much capatalism as possible is socialist in nature... Therefore, I will label them socialist.

    Will they succeed in eliminating capitalism in a world that's run by few? No country can probably ever make the conversion again... There's simply too much money in the hands of global business to allow it...

    Perhaps I jumped the gun earlier when being called an idiot. For that, I stand corrected.

  15. #15
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    [QUOTE=AlwaysGreenAlwaysWhite;4098820]If you want to argue the degree of socialism, that's all well and good...

    A party backed by ideals to eliminate as much capatalism as possible is socialist in nature... Therefore, I will label them socialist.

    Will they succeed in eliminating capitalism in a world that's run by few? No country can probably ever make the conversion again... There's simply too much money in the hands of global business to allow it...

    Perhaps I jumped the gun earlier when being called an idiot. For that, I stand corrected.[/QUOTE]

    See that was me in a post above - didn't actually call you an idiot, but can see how you would take it that way. Apologies anyway.

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