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Thread: Not sure why this is a surprise

  1. #1
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    Not sure why this is a surprise

    I include myself in this for allowing my bias as a Jet fan from blinding to me the FACT that this is a mediocre team.

    However, just a few points

    Besides Revis and Harris, name me one above average player on the defense? We don't have one elite pass rusher and would probably be an awful defense if it wasn't for Rex and Pettine's schemes

    Windows open slowly and close real quick in the NFL. The first year, Rex caught alot of teams off guard with his defense. For the most part teams have caught up to Rex's schemes and he doesn't have the pure talent on the line or at linebacker to play base defense. there is no speed at all at linebacker to cover back and Tight ends and there is not one pass rusher on the team that can pressure a QB without a stunt or the benefit of a blitz tying up lineman

    The offensive talent was severely downgraded this offseason, why, including myself did we expect it to get better with less talent and the same awful coordinator? Clear downgrades at RT, FB and WR. Hunter has improved but Woody is 10X the run blocker. We still try 4-5 times a game to run our "power run" behind the right side of the line and it never gains more than 2 yards. Conner was fun for Hard Knocks but he's not near as savvy as Richardson in blitz pickup. And at WR, we lost one of the main reasons our third down percentage wasn't putrid (Cotchery) and severely miscalculated in thinking Plax could replace Braylon. Braylon ran the routes Sanchez is good at throwing and could get vertical which Plax clearly can't do. Along with that, Greene is a straight ahead runner running behind a declining line. Name me one time Greene has made a cut or a run that has gained yardage where he had no business gaining yards. Good backs do this. Greene is an average back.

    With all those factors why are we surprised? Cause of Rex's expectations and the HOPE that Sanchez was going to overcome those downgrades to start winning games on his own. I love Sanchez more than most, but he has clearly shown he stares down receivers when all the elements of the offense aren't clicking enough for him to feel comfortable. Also, Schotty NEVER calls boots and moves Sanchez which is clearly his strength, when he improvise and buy time for his receivers to get open.

    If you think back to last year and all the victories this team pulled out of it's ass, this year and mediocrity is not surprising at all. The more painful thing for me is they don't have much pure, young talent on the rise to avoid a total rebuild. Pace and Scott will be terrible next year. Their window is almost closed now. Bryan Thomas is a goner, leaving 3 holes at LB. Pouha is older than you think, being drafted at a late age. We have NO safeties next year, we're barely getting by with the limited athletic ability we have now. There are literally 7 holes to fill on defense coming very soon (excluding Revis, Cromartie, Wilkerson, Harris)

    This team is a case of poor timing. If Sanchez wasn't a first/second year QB in the years the defense's window was there they could have done it. Now the window is closed on the defense and a rebuild is in order.

  2. #2
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    dump

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    Harris is an above-average player?

    Dump.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by sg3 View Post
    dump
    That's right, I forgot thought out, reasoned arguments weren't welcome on this board

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    Quote Originally Posted by met92jet View Post
    That's right, I forgot thought out, reasoned arguments weren't welcome on this board

    Please don't pay any attention to that "dump" crap, I agree that it's a really stupid reply and a waste of everyone's JI reading time, but so is freedom of speech when some folks talk out of their asses.

    What I do care about are the players on this team & IMO the defense is a very well gelled squad. Eric Smith, Jim Leonard, Sione, Mike DeVito, David Harris, Bart, Revis, even ole Cro are doing the best they can under very trying circumstances. How many 3 and outs did the team have on Monday night again? To try & distinguish any player as "above average" IMO is unfair when they are playing well as a unit and a team.

    JMHO.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Limolady View Post
    Please don't pay any attention to that "dump" crap, I agree that it's a really stupid reply and a waste of everyone's JI reading time, but so is freedom of speech when some folks talk out of their asses.

    What I do care about are the players on this team & IMO the defense is a very well gelled squad. Eric Smith, Jim Leonard, Sione, Mike DeVito, David Harris, Bart, Revis, even ole Cro are doing the best they can under very trying circumstances. How many 3 and outs did the team have on Monday night again? To try & distinguish any player as "above average" IMO is unfair when they are playing well as a unit and a team.

    JMHO.

    Lost count of the three and outs... Too many to track without a scorecard. Our first, first down was with 5:34 left in 2Q.... Something needs to be done there..... If this D stunk we lose 35 - 17 on Monday night.

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    I take it you're a glass half full type of guy?

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    Quote Originally Posted by met92jet View Post
    Besides Revis and Harris, name me one above average player on the defense?
    Bart Scott
    Calvin Pace
    Sione Pouha
    Mike DeVito

    Done!

  9. #9
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    Good Luck with this crew new guy. You make excellent points which I totally agree with. I also noticed you did not suggest firing our OC & Plax mid season and bringing in a new OC along with Randy Moss now. Good show.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozu View Post
    Bart Scott
    Calvin Pace
    Sione Pouha
    Mike DeVito

    Done!
    You really think Mike DeVito is an above average NFL defensive lineman?

    I think the OP is correct that our defensive success has more to do with scheme than talent.

    We had the same talent (and Kris Jenkins) in '08 with Mangini and we had a very average D. Rex comes in and in one year we're ranked #1.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozu View Post
    Bart Scott
    Calvin Pace
    Sione Pouha
    Mike DeVito

    Done!
    Adding Antonio Cromartie and Jim Leonhard

  12. #12
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    What? No love for Kyle Wilson, Brodney Pool, Jamaal Westerman or Muhammed Wilkerson either?


  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by met92jet View Post
    I include myself in this for allowing my bias as a Jet fan from blinding to me the FACT that this is a mediocre team.

    However, just a few points

    Besides Revis and Harris, name me one above average player on the defense? We don't have one elite pass rusher and would probably be an awful defense if it wasn't for Rex and Pettine's schemes

    Windows open slowly and close real quick in the NFL. The first year, Rex caught alot of teams off guard with his defense. For the most part teams have caught up to Rex's schemes and he doesn't have the pure talent on the line or at linebacker to play base defense. there is no speed at all at linebacker to cover back and Tight ends and there is not one pass rusher on the team that can pressure a QB without a stunt or the benefit of a blitz tying up lineman

    The offensive talent was severely downgraded this offseason, why, including myself did we expect it to get better with less talent and the same awful coordinator? Clear downgrades at RT, FB and WR. Hunter has improved but Woody is 10X the run blocker. We still try 4-5 times a game to run our "power run" behind the right side of the line and it never gains more than 2 yards. Conner was fun for Hard Knocks but he's not near as savvy as Richardson in blitz pickup. And at WR, we lost one of the main reasons our third down percentage wasn't putrid (Cotchery) and severely miscalculated in thinking Plax could replace Braylon. Braylon ran the routes Sanchez is good at throwing and could get vertical which Plax clearly can't do. Along with that, Greene is a straight ahead runner running behind a declining line. Name me one time Greene has made a cut or a run that has gained yardage where he had no business gaining yards. Good backs do this. Greene is an average back.

    With all those factors why are we surprised? Cause of Rex's expectations and the HOPE that Sanchez was going to overcome those downgrades to start winning games on his own. I love Sanchez more than most, but he has clearly shown he stares down receivers when all the elements of the offense aren't clicking enough for him to feel comfortable. Also, Schotty NEVER calls boots and moves Sanchez which is clearly his strength, when he improvise and buy time for his receivers to get open.

    If you think back to last year and all the victories this team pulled out of it's ass, this year and mediocrity is not surprising at all. The more painful thing for me is they don't have much pure, young talent on the rise to avoid a total rebuild. Pace and Scott will be terrible next year. Their window is almost closed now. Bryan Thomas is a goner, leaving 3 holes at LB. Pouha is older than you think, being drafted at a late age. We have NO safeties next year, we're barely getting by with the limited athletic ability we have now. There are literally 7 holes to fill on defense coming very soon (excluding Revis, Cromartie, Wilkerson, Harris)

    This team is a case of poor timing. If Sanchez wasn't a first/second year QB in the years the defense's window was there they could have done it. Now the window is closed on the defense and a rebuild is in order.
    Fine a rebuild is in order. So what? You forgot Kenrick Ellis, Aaron Maybin, Kyle Wilson, Jamaal Westermann, Marcus Dixon.

    Get a Free safety and an athletic linebacker or two

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Austin View Post
    You really think Mike DeVito is an above average NFL defensive lineman?

    I think the OP is correct that our defensive success has more to do with scheme than talent.

    We had the same talent (and Kris Jenkins) in '08 with Mangini and we had a very average D. Rex comes in and in one year we're ranked #1.
    Why does Devito get hate? Because he doesn't produce stats? He dominated Logan Mankins.

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    You've talked about no speed at our LB positions. I guess you've yet to pay actual attention to Aaron Maybin over the past couple of weeks. He's the fastest/quickest LB we've had in quite some time. He's only 23 years of age. 2009's 11th overall pick. All he needed were a coach, such as Ryan to turn his career around. Someone who could put this kid in the best possible position for success. He's put up two sacks and has forced three fumbles in only 3 games of action. He's also shown the overall speed and capability to chase down amazingly fast backs such as Reggie Bush from 5 yards back. Calvin Pace is also a very solid pass rusher. The Jets rank 3rd in sacks, lets not complain about one of the better pass rushes around. Of course Rex sends the blitz package to pick up sacks and pressure QB's. We run a 3-4 defense. How else are we expected to pressure opposing quarterbacks? With our 3-4 defensive ends? No. You're thinking of a 4-3 scheme, because what you're saying in regards to our pass rush, or expected pass rush makes no sense.

    You also mention how the Jets lack much of pure, young talent on the rise to avoid a total rebuild... You failed to mention Kyle Wilson. His early season performance has been nothing less than outstanding as our nickel back. Sanchez is a young franchise QB. Ferguson and Mangold are both young, starting at two of the most important positions on the offensive line. LT and Center. Joe McKnight is an up and coming back. You mention Greene not being abler to make a cut back that's gained yardage, but no mention of McKnight who will start to earn more carries as the years go on? Kerley is a young slot WR. Holmes is still young. Slauson at LG too. Revis and Cromartie are young as well. David Harris is in his prime as our #1 IMLB. We just revamped our defensive front with Wilkerson and Ellis.

    Which total rebuild are you talking about? Your post had one too many flaws to count.

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    You need a special player at every level. Currently the Jets think they are grooming MoW for that in level 1. I personally think our LBs suck. No speed. I'd move Bart to OLB, and draft a stud ILB. Pace just disappears for stretches of the season and then he has a blowout game. So quite frankly I think we need a special player at the LB position and quite frankly I don't think David Harris is it. He's solid. I like the guy. But he's not a game changer IMO. And obviously our 3rd level is off the charts with Revis, but I think they need a quality Safety.

    I'd actually move Smith to ILB next to Harris and move Bart to OLB and play Pool at safety for this season.

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    Quote Originally Posted by southside View Post
    I don't think David Harris is it. He's solid. I like the guy. But he's not a game changer IMO.


    Nevermind see, did you HEAR that sack on Matt Moore Monday night? David Harris made him cry. Girly moment tears from getting hit so hard crying too. IMO he & Revis deserved the game balls for that win.


  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Limolady View Post
    Nevermind see, did you HEAR that sack on Matt Moore Monday night? David Harris made him cry. Girly moment tears from getting hit so hard crying too. IMO he & Revis deserved the game balls for that win.

    Oh he's earned the nickname Hitman Harris for a reason. I like him. But he's not a game changer. He's just quietly a great LB. But he isn't a wreaking havoc type of player. I'm sure I'm being too hard on him. He's been actually really good this season. I'm thoroughly impressed to be honest. There aren't a lot of Ray Lewis types out there, they are once in a generation. So I'm going to recant my undervaluing of Harris. Happy now?

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    Quote Originally Posted by GangGreenNY View Post
    You've talked about no speed at our LB positions. I guess you've yet to pay actual attention to Aaron Maybin over the past couple of weeks. He's the fastest/quickest LB we've had in quite some time. He's only 23 years of age. 2009's 11th overall pick. All he needed were a coach, such as Ryan to turn his career around. Someone who could put this kid in the best possible position for success. He's put up two sacks and has forced three fumbles in only 3 games of action. He's also shown the overall speed and capability to chase down amazingly fast backs such as Reggie Bush from 5 yards back. Calvin Pace is also a very solid pass rusher. The Jets rank 3rd in sacks, lets not complain about one of the better pass rushes around. Of course Rex sends the blitz package to pick up sacks and pressure QB's. We run a 3-4 defense. How else are we expected to pressure opposing quarterbacks? With our 3-4 defensive ends? No. You're thinking of a 4-3 scheme, because what you're saying in regards to our pass rush, or expected pass rush makes no sense.

    You also mention how the Jets lack much of pure, young talent on the rise to avoid a total rebuild... You failed to mention Kyle Wilson. His early season performance has been nothing less than outstanding as our nickel back. Sanchez is a young franchise QB. Ferguson and Mangold are both young, starting at two of the most important positions on the offensive line. LT and Center. Joe McKnight is an up and coming back. You mention Greene not being abler to make a cut back that's gained yardage, but no mention of McKnight who will start to earn more carries as the years go on? Kerley is a young slot WR. Holmes is still young. Slauson at LG too. Revis and Cromartie are young as well. David Harris is in his prime as our #1 IMLB. We just revamped our defensive front with Wilkerson and Ellis.

    Which total rebuild are you talking about? Your post had one too many flaws to count.
    You're really going to bring Maybin up as a future star in our defense after 3 weeks?! I'll grant you he has great speed off the edge, but he has not shown one ounce of being a complete player and not just a 3rd down specialist. If you think that potential is there fine, but let's back up a bit

    I agree Wilson has potential. However, with Cromartie signed for 4 years, you've not got a 1st round corner locked in to play the slot. Poor team management there. I'm not a Cromartie fan at all but I'll take these 3 corners over most teams, we can agree there, however you used a first round pick on a guy and gave up on him quick enough to sign Cromartie for 4 years.

    Pace is a nice player but I don't consider him elite , especially at his cap number. Scott is extremely overrated. Anyone who can't see the amount of missed tackles in crucial situations this guy has is blind.

    We can agree the O-line still has a decent window of high level play left if Moore can last a few more years, but I'm not ready to say Hunter is a starter off the Dolphin game. Also not sold on Slauson. If this line is so elite, why can I count the number of 10 yard runs this year on one hand???

    McKnight has earned his 4th round status by becoming an elite returner so I'll take the bust label off, however there's no way he's a between the tackles runner. I'll be the first to admit i'm wrong if he's given the shot and can produce as a lead back, just don't see that happening.

  20. #20
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    The OP expresses some reasonable concerns...
    But I'm sure every team can be scrutinized in this way, with similar results of "windows closing" on key players...
    Most important is the quality of the HC and the QB...
    If you believe that they are good enough to win, then other positions can be retooled each season...
    So, there is hope...

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