Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 101

Thread: We cannot dig, build, or pave our way out of economic malaise

  1. #21
    [QUOTE=Buster;4232791]Malarkey

    It is a 3 week training course to get a CDL or heavy machinery license.

    This is rightwing BS.

    [URL="http://www.equipmentoperator.com/training/class-dates.php"]www.equipmentoperator.com/[/URL]



    The current economy is bad because money is not being spent. Spending is needed to create a good economy and the economy does not care if the money comes from the private sector or from the public sector.

    Cash is king.[/QUOTE]

    You have no clue about the problems in our economy. Your spend more money mantra is pathetic. We currently spend 50% over what we take in. Thats not enough for you??? I deal in manufacturing machinery. I speak to small and medium sized manufacturers all day every day. These people are in lock step agreement about our problems. Manufacturing is headed to China. We used to have many American Furniture factories in North Carolina. In the past 10 years almost all of them have shut down or moved production to China. It is similar for most of the plastics fabricators I deal with. The problems are wide and far reaching. None of it has anything to do with more stimulus spending. Its the cost of healthcare and the cost of oil that are killing us. Add in a sprinkle of a punishing taxation and regulatory environment and the final nail is in.

  2. #22
    [QUOTE=Buster;4233133]Warfish,
    Please stop posting straw-man arguments and post what you believe.
    Thanks[/QUOTE]

    Buster,
    I'll post whatever I like.
    Thanks

    P.S. Being called out on a "Straw Man' when I've in-effect quoted the poster in question, lolworthy.

  3. #23
    All League
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    East of the Jordan, West of the Rock of Gibraltar
    Posts
    4,785
    [QUOTE=chiefst2000;4233139]You have no clue about the problems in our economy. Your spend more money mantra is pathetic. We currently spend 50% over what we take in. Thats not enough for you??? I deal in manufacturing machinery. I speak to small and medium sized manufacturers all day every day. These people are in lock step agreement about our problems. Manufacturing is headed to China. We used to have many American Furniture factories in North Carolina. In the past 10 years almost all of them have shut down or moved production to China. It is similar for most of the plastics fabricators I deal with. The problems are wide and far reaching. None of it has anything to do with more stimulus spending. Its the cost of healthcare and the cost of oil that are killing us. Add in a sprinkle of a punishing taxation and regulatory environment and the final nail is in.[/QUOTE]

    You are describing the long term flaws with our economy. This discussion is about our current “malaise”.

    Unless you are saying that government contracts to fix/build highways, bridges, Railroads, etc... will not increase overall current employment.

  4. #24
    All League
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    East of the Jordan, West of the Rock of Gibraltar
    Posts
    4,785
    [QUOTE=Warfish;4233172]Buster,
    I'll post whatever I like.
    Thanks

    P.S. Being called out on a "Straw Man' when I've in-effect quoted the poster in question, lolworthy.[/QUOTE]


    I said please

    Your post has no quotes so I assumed you were paraphrasing.

  5. #25
    [QUOTE=Warfish;4233090]
    Is there more Bit, or is this matrially it for the "Bit Plan"? I want to make sure I understand it fully.[/QUOTE]

    I dont think you understand it fully. i do believe more (easier) immigration = more growth and it's easier to bring non-lazy workers in than to un-lazy the workers we have.

  6. #26
    [QUOTE=Buster;4233195]You are describing the long term flaws with our economy. This discussion is about our current “malaise”.

    Unless you are saying that government contracts to fix/build highways, bridges, Railroads, etc... will not increase overall current employment.[/QUOTE]

    We need to repair a system in decline. A few short term jobs wont do a thing. Obama just proposed a "jobs bill" that according to a bloomberg survey of economists will carry a cost of 1.8 million per job created. The scary part is that the money printing by the federal gov will by default increase the costs of oil, and commodities in general. Essentially your "solution" perpetuates the problem.

    To summarize, we are currently running a 1.6 trillion dollar deficit. The Keynsian definition of stimulus is any deficit spending. Your solution is to ramp up the stimulus even higher?? For me it doesn't make sense. There are structural problems that need to be addressed now. Healthcare was tops on the list and Obamacare literally made the problem worse by INCREASING the cost of health insurance. The second issue is commodity cost. Again all of the stimulus and deficit spending exacerbates the problem by weakening the currency. By my view the solutions you are offering up are actually making the problems worse.

  7. #27
    All Pro
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    6,926
    Agreed with the original premise, and the obvious question becomes what CAN we do...

    Criticism rings hollow without viable alternative.

  8. #28
    [QUOTE=chiefst2000;4233290] The scary part is that the money printing by the federal gov will by default increase the costs of oil, and commodities in general. Essentially your "solution" perpetuates the problem. [/QUOTE]

    hmm. maybe we should use less oil. any economy geared toward success only when oil is cheap is doomed.
    Last edited by bitonti; 11-14-2011 at 04:52 PM.

  9. #29
    [QUOTE=parafly;4233310]Agreed with the original premise, and the obvious question becomes what CAN we do...

    Criticism rings hollow without viable alternative.[/QUOTE]

    The solutions are out there. We need to repeal Obamacare and pass a healthcare bill that actually addresses the cost of the coverage. We could drive the price of healthcare down by allowing small businesses to group up and get the same rates as larger companies. Medical tort reform and insurance portability should be addresses. Allow competition across state lines.

    For energy we need to move to a Natty Gas model. Its cheaper than oil and available in abundance domestically. We would be energy independent in 5-10 years if that agenda was promoted. Plus a thriving drilling sector would create millions of blue collar jobs.

    Finally we need to balance our budget and stop the destruction of the value of the dollar. All of this "stimulus" is killing our currency.

  10. #30
    [QUOTE=bitonti;4233338]hmm. maybe we should use less oil. any economy geared toward success only when oil is cheap is doomed.[/QUOTE]

    Brilliant!! Why didn't anyone else think of that. :rolleyes: We have a consumer based economy right now. When it costs $80 a week to fill up your tank you have less money to spend elsewhere. When it costs $2000plus per month for family health insurance thats less money to spend on other stuff. Thats how our economy works or doesn't work as it is today.

  11. #31
    [QUOTE=chiefst2000;4233350]Brilliant!! Why didn't anyone else think of that.[/QUOTE]

    another useful comment from the right wing.

    Don't let me interrupt, you were on quite a roll. Please continue to tell us how Obamacare which doesn't take effect until 2014 is ruining everything. Maybe they knew Obamacare was coming in 2007 when the downturn started? I also want to know how a congress full of lawyers is going to pass tort reform.

  12. #32
    [QUOTE=chiefst2000;4233350] When it costs $80 a week to fill up your tank you have less money to spend elsewhere. [/QUOTE]

    contrary to popular belief, the US Gov't doesn't control the price of gasoline.

  13. #33
    All League
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    East of the Jordan, West of the Rock of Gibraltar
    Posts
    4,785
    [QUOTE=parafly;4233310]Agreed with the original premise, and the obvious question becomes what CAN we do...

    Criticism rings hollow without viable alternative.[/QUOTE]

    Silly, Do nothing. Next year elect a Republican and cut taxes.

    That is the cure all!

  14. #34
    [QUOTE=bitonti;4233360]another useful comment from the right wing.

    Don't let me interrupt, you were on quite a roll. Please continue to tell us how Obamacare which doesn't take effect until 2014 is ruining everything. Maybe they knew Obamacare was coming in 2007 when the downturn started? I also want to know how a congress full of lawyers is going to pass tort reform.[/QUOTE]

    The Obamacare mandate for increases in coverage have already gone in to effect. The price of healthcare has been skyrocketing the past 3 years. What hasn't taken effect yet is the exchange system and government subsidized portion which will be paid for by a job and middle class worker killing payroll tax hike which kicks in in 2012.

    None of what you said addresses the FACT that Obamacare did the opposite of what the name of the bill claimed to do. It is the opposite of affordable health care. It drives the price up. They could have dealt with the cost issue and they chose not to. That was not a new problem in 2008. Healthcare cost alongside the price of oil was hurting the economy even before the housing collapse. Obama had all of congress in 2009 and he CHOSE to ignore the problem and pass an ideologically driven agenda of green energy and universal health care. It predictably has been a disaster. They ignored the real problems.

  15. #35
    [QUOTE=bitonti;4233366]contrary to popular belief, the US Gov't doesn't control the price of gasoline.[/QUOTE]

    Contrary to moonbattery the US has an endless supply of cheap and clean natural gas. We could drill, remove it from the ground, and provide it to American Consumers. Bonus item!!! Drilling for the gas we have would create millions of blue collar jobs. Another Bonus!!! Natty Gas is cleaner burning than Gasoline!! Woot!!! Another Bonus!! Natty Gas is cheaper than Gasoline!!!

    Why don't you understand this stuff?

  16. #36
    All League
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    East of the Jordan, West of the Rock of Gibraltar
    Posts
    4,785
    [QUOTE=chiefst2000;4233290]We need to repair a system in decline. A few short term jobs wont do a thing. Obama just proposed a "jobs bill" that according to a bloomberg survey of economists will carry a cost of 1.8 million per job created. The scary part is that the money printing by the federal gov will by default increase the costs of oil, and commodities in general. Essentially your "solution" perpetuates the problem.
    [/QUOTE]

    I was unable to find the Bloomberg report. Link?

    The plan was to get the money for the stimulus thru tax increases or closing loopholes in the tax code.

    Some of this money will end up helping the states via income and sales tax.

    Necessary American infrastructure will be created, fixed and maintained thru this stimulus money. This needs to be done.

    [QUOTE=chiefst2000;4233290]

    To summarize, we are currently running a 1.6 trillion dollar deficit. The Keynsian definition of stimulus is any deficit spending. Your solution is to ramp up the stimulus even higher?? For me it doesn't make sense. There are structural problems that need to be addressed now. Healthcare was tops on the list and Obamacare literally made the problem worse by INCREASING the cost of health insurance. The second issue is commodity cost. Again all of the stimulus and deficit spending exacerbates the problem by weakening the currency. By my view the solutions you are offering up are actually making the problems worse.
    [/QUOTE]

    Some random thoughts:

    folks are falling over each other to lend the USA money at the lowest rates ever. Why not take advantage of that?

    If the repo-man showed up early Saturday morning at the US treasury demanding re-payment couldn’t the USA just sell its 140+ million ounces of gold in Fort Knox?

    Gold is well over $1500 isn't it?

    The Debt is a big issue, no doubt but it is secondary to unemployment. Debt is being used by the far right for political ends.

    We need to get people working, get kids to go to school for engineering again and then fix the wonkiness in our economy.

  17. #37
    All League
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    East of the Jordan, West of the Rock of Gibraltar
    Posts
    4,785
    [QUOTE=chiefst2000;4233403]

    Contrary to moonbattery the US has an endless supply of cheap and clean natural gas.

    [/QUOTE]

    Two things:

    Endless supply???

    Moonbat, does anyone really think that is funny and or clever?

  18. #38
    [QUOTE=chiefst2000;4233394]
    None of what you said addresses the FACT that Obamacare did the opposite of what the name of the bill claimed to do. It is the opposite of affordable health care. It drives the price up. They could have dealt with the cost issue and they chose not to. It predictably has been a disaster. They ignored the real problems.[/QUOTE]



    I don't know how an economic discussion became an Obamacare discussion. it could also be possible that the extra layers could actually create jobs in the healthcare industry.

    first off I don't know how you can call this bill a disaster when it hasn't even kicked in. It hasn't even started. the cost increases in healthcare has been happening pretty much non stop for 20+ years, with or without gov't intervention. We don't know that the recent cost increases are because of the ACA. We don't know what the costs will be like after 5 or 10 years of life under ACA. it's far too soon to judge these things, and like medicare signed under LBJ i predict this will be a popular bill when it is all said and done.

    also, there's alot of good in that bill like not allowing insurance companies to deny coverage on pre-existing conditions. Or dropping coverage when people get sick. You want to repeal this law and allow that to happen again? does the American people deserve that treatment?

    Even if nothing else in the bill has any value that was a good common sense part of the law.

  19. #39
    [QUOTE=bitonti;4233289]I dont think you understand it fully. i do believe more (easier) immigration = more growth and it's easier to bring non-lazy workers in than to un-lazy the workers we have.[/QUOTE]

    Oh, I think I understand it fine. I think you're simply fearful of saying it so openly and directly, that you support effective open-borders as an immigration policy.

    [QUOTE=bitonti;4233338]hmm. maybe we should use less oil. any economy geared toward success only when oil is cheap is doomed.[/QUOTE]

    Well if we "should", then "should" our Government MAKE us?

    Because if not "should" hold very little power. Only Law has power.

    So do you support State-based mandate to use less Oil, via ilegalization of older cars, mandates on fuel efficientcy, say, 150 miles/gallon or 100% electric only?

    Perhaps even a mandate a la Obamacare, that all Americans drivers must own an electric car by 201? or face fines and jailtime, just like w/ Healthcare? After all, healthcare pales in comparison to the importance of the Global Environemtn, right, so power used for a less important item (healthcare) should be legitimate for a vastly more important item (environemntal protection) that also directly effects health, right?

    [QUOTE=bitonti;4233435]Ifirst off I don't know how you can call this bill a disaster when it hasn't even kicked in. It hasn't even started.[/QUOTE]

    The mandate portion has not started.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but the taxation and other aspects have started, have they not?

    If wikipedia can be trusted, the following HAVE started:

    Effective at enactment
    The Food and Drug Administration is now authorized to approve generic versions of biologic drugs and grant biologics manufacturers 12 years of exclusive use before generics can be developed.[40]
    The Medicaid drug rebate for brand name drugs is increased to 23.1% (except the rebate for clotting factors and drugs approved exclusively for pediatric use increases to 17.1%), and the rebate is extended to Medicaid managed care plans; the Medicaid rebate for non-innovator, multiple source drugs is increased to 13% of average manufacturer price.[40]
    A non-profit Patient-Centered Outcomes Research Institute is established, independent from government, to undertake comparative effectiveness research.[40] This is charged with examining the "relative health outcomes, clinical effectiveness, and appropriateness" of different medical treatments by evaluating existing studies and conducting its own. Its 19-member board is to include patients, doctors, hospitals, drug makers, device manufacturers, insurers, payers, government officials and health experts. It will not have the power to mandate or even endorse coverage rules or reimbursement for any particular treatment. Medicare may take the Institute’s research into account when deciding what procedures it will cover, so long as the new research is not the sole justification and the agency allows for public input.[41] The bill forbids the Institute to develop or employ "a dollars per quality adjusted life year" (or similar measure that discounts the value of a life because of an individual’s disability) as a threshold to establish what type of health care is cost effective or recommended. This makes it different from the UK's National Institute for Health and Clinical Excellence.
    Creation of task forces on Preventive Services and Community Preventive Services to develop, update, and disseminate evidenced-based recommendations on the use of clinical and community prevention services.[40]
    The Indian Health Care Improvement Act is reauthorized and amended.[40]

    [edit] Effective June 21, 2010
    Adults with pre-existing conditions became eligible to join a temporary high-risk pool, which will be superseded by the health care exchange in 2014.[37][42] To qualify for coverage, applicants must have a pre-existing health condition and have been uninsured for at least the past six months.[43] There is no age requirement.[43] The new program sets premiums as if for a standard population and not for a population with a higher health risk. Allows premiums to vary by age (4:1), geographic area, and family composition. Limit out-of-pocket spending to $5,950 for individuals and $11,900 for families, excluding premiums.[43][44][45]

    [edit] Effective July 1, 2010
    The President established, within the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS), a council to be known as the National Prevention, Health Promotion and Public Health Council to help begin to develop a National Prevention and Health Promotion Strategy. The Surgeon General shall serve as the Chairperson of the new Council.[46][47]
    A 10% tax on indoor tanning took effect.[48]

    [edit] Effective September 23, 2010
    Insurers are prohibited from imposing lifetime dollar limits on essential benefits, like hospital stays, in new policies issued.[49]
    Dependents (children) will be permitted to remain on their parents' insurance plan until their 26th birthday,[50] and regulations implemented under the Act include dependents that no longer live with their parents, are not a dependent on a parent’s tax return, are no longer a student, or are married.[51][52]
    Insurers are prohibited from excluding pre-existing medical conditions (except in grandfathered individual health insurance plans) for children under the age of 19.[53][54]
    Insurers are prohibited from charging co-payments, co-insurance, or deductibles for Level A or Level B preventive care and medical screenings on all new insurance plans.[55]
    Individuals affected by the Medicare Part D coverage gap will receive a $250 rebate, and 50% of the gap will be eliminated in 2011.[56] The gap will be eliminated by 2020.
    Insurers' abilities to enforce annual spending caps will be restricted, and completely prohibited by 2014.[37]
    Insurers are prohibited from dropping policyholders when they get sick.[37]
    Insurers are required to reveal details about administrative and executive expenditures.[37]
    Insurers are required to implement an appeals process for coverage determination and claims on all new plans.[37]
    Enhanced methods of fraud detection are implemented.[37]
    Medicare is expanded to small, rural hospitals and facilities.[37]
    Medicare patients with chronic illnesses must be monitored/evaluated on a 3 month basis for coverage of the medications for treatment of such illnesses.
    Non-profit Blue Cross insurers are required to maintain a loss ratio (money spent on procedures over money incoming) of 85% or higher to take advantage of IRS tax benefits.[37]
    Companies which provide early retiree benefits for individuals aged 55–64 are eligible to participate in a temporary program which reduces premium costs.[37]
    A new website installed by the Secretary of Health and Human Services will provide consumer insurance information for individuals and small businesses in all states.[37]
    A temporary credit program is established to encourage private investment in new therapies for disease treatment and prevention.[37]

    [edit] Effective by January 1, 2011
    Insurers will be required to spend 85% of large-group and 80% of small-group and individual plan premiums (with certain adjustments) on healthcare or to improve healthcare quality, or return the difference to the customer as a rebate.[57]
    The Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services is responsible for developing the Center for Medicare and Medicaid Innovation and overseeing the testing of innovative payment and delivery models.[58]
    Flexible spending accounts, Health reimbursement accounts and health savings accounts cannot be used to pay for over-the-counter drugs, purchased without a prescription, except insulin.[59]

  20. #40
    [QUOTE=Warfish;4233457]Oh, I think I understand it fine. I think you're simply fearful of saying it so openly and directly, that you support effective open-borders as an immigration policy. [/quote]

    whats the alternative retrain American factory workers and college kids to pick fruit migrant? the fruit will go fallow in the field.

    [QUOTE=Warfish;4233457]
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but the taxation and other aspects have started, have they not?

    A 10% tax on indoor tanning took effect.[48]
    [/QUOTE]

    this is the big tax that is killing the economy. The tanning bed tax.

    There is no other part of the bill that is "job killing" to use the parlance of the GOP.

    the other common sense part that citizens would hate to lose in a "full repeal" is the less than 26 year olds on the parents health care plans. People are using that all the time, very popular part of the legislation. It's not a perfect bill but it's also not what's wrong with the economy.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Follow Us