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Thread: How does elite QB play relate to Super Bowl wins?

  1. #21
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    I applaud your efforts, PM, but your point is pretty much common knowledge.

    The super-D teams are the exception, not the rule. And 4 of those teams (85 Bears, 86 Giants, 91 Skins, 2002 Bucs) had QBs wth pro bowl yrs.

    Very Good QB play is a must to win the SB and Sanchez hasn't produced that thus far this year.

    The silver lining is that there are still 7 games left where Sanchez can really make a push.

  2. #22
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    [QUOTE=PMarsico9;4234095]I agree, to a point. I will say that by his 3rd year, Eli had shown some flashes as had Big Ben.[/QUOTE]Going to go back to this comparison as I keep tabs on it for my own sanity. Eli and Sanchez are remarkably similar to begin their careers. Ben was lightyears ahead of both of them though.

    These are their respective stats through 46 games starting, which in Eli's case is week 5 of the 2007 season.
    [code] Games Cmp Att Cmp% Yds TD INT TD% INT% Y/A Rate Rush TD
    E. Manning 46 808 1478 54.7% 9399 65 54 4.4% 3.7% 6.36 73.6 1
    Sanchez 46 738 1325 55.7% 8963 52 44 3.9% 3.3% 6.77 75.9 9[/code]
    Last edited by ozu; 11-15-2011 at 12:06 PM.

  3. #23
    [QUOTE=JB1089;4234160]Rodgers had a 93.8 QB rating his first year starting.[/QUOTE]

    Yeah, I was gonna say, Rodgers had a very good first season, although his D blew a lot of leads in the 4th quarter and they finished 6-10. Even the one game he played in 2007 (replacing Favre in 2nd quarter after injury), Rodgers played very well on the road against a Cowboy team that would go 13-3. It was in stark contrast to Favre's performance prior to the injury, in which he had been a complete disaster. From that game, I thought Rodgers was probably the best QB on GB's roster, although Favre had a good year up until the NFC CG nightmare finish.

  4. #24
    [QUOTE=ozu;4234183]Going to go back to this comparison as I keep tabs on it for my own sanity. Eli and Sanchez are remarkably similar to being their careers. Ben was lightyears ahead of both of them though.

    These are their respective stats through 46 games starting, which in Eli's case is week 5 of the 2007 season.
    [code] Games Cmp Att Cmp% Yds TD INT TD% INT% Y/A Rate Rush TD
    E. Manning 46 808 1478 54.7% 9399 65 54 4.4% 3.7% 6.36 73.6 1
    Sanchez 46 738 1325 55.7% 8963 52 44 3.9% 3.3% 6.77 75.9 9[/code][/QUOTE]

    Eli's growth and development is probably the best model for Sanchez. That's what we have to hope.

  5. #25
    [QUOTE=Savage69;4234162]Peyton Manning avg 20 picks a year his first 4 years and in his 5th year got killed by Chaddy and the Jets 41-0 in the playoffs..It took him 9 years to win a Bowl and lost his next chance with a pick 6.. Jet fans would have had him shot after year 4 if not sooner..:yes:[/QUOTE]

    Peyton also lost in his first 3 playoff appearances and didn't win his 4th playoff game until his 9th year (sanchez obviously has that matched after year 2).

    And it's not like Peyton wasn't surrounded with talent (M Faulk, Reggie Wayne, Edgerrin James, D Clark, M Harrison etc..)
    Last edited by revischrist; 11-15-2011 at 12:23 PM.

  6. #26
    [QUOTE=JB1089;4234175]Tebow hasn't played 16 games, he's played 13, and he's only started 7 of those games.[/QUOTE]

    9 games last year+7 games this year = 16

  7. #27
    [QUOTE=Monsterxman;4234140]Tim Tebow vs. Mark Sanchez

    First 16 games of their careers:

    Sanchez – 54.4% 2883 yards (2779 throwing/104 rushing), [B]17 tds (14 throwing/3 rushing), 21 ints, 12 fumbles - QB rating in the 60’s.[/B]

    Tebow – 47.1%, 1806 yards (1259 throwing/547 rushing), [B]20 td’s (12 throwing, 8 rushing), 4 ints, 5 fumbles – QB rating in the 80’s.[/B]

    Mods - please don’t put in the garbage, this is a serious comparison.[/QUOTE]

    Here is why your comparison doesn't work. Tebow has only attempted 187 passes in his career. Two times this season he has thrown 10 or less passes in a game. The more passes you throw, the more incompletions and chances for int's you have. Now if you compare total passes, then you can have a more accurate idea and I guarantee you the completion percentage goes down as it already has from last season when he threw less passes and the int's will go up (or maybe not because Tebow can't hit the broadside of a barn)

  8. #28
    [QUOTE=Monsterxman;4234195]9 games last year+7 games this year = 16[/QUOTE]

    [URL="http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/T/TeboTi00/gamelog/"]Tim Tebow[/URL]

  9. #29
    [QUOTE=SlickBri481;4234184]Yeah, I was gonna say, Rodgers had a very good first season, although his D blew a lot of leads in the 4th quarter and they finished 6-10. Even the one game he played in 2007 (replacing Favre in 2nd quarter after injury), Rodgers played very well on the road against a Cowboy team that would go 13-3. It was in stark contrast to Favre's performance prior to the injury, in which he had been a complete disaster. From that game, I thought Rodgers was probably the best QB on GB's roster, although Favre had a good year up until the NFC CG nightmare finish.[/QUOTE]

    His first year starting was his FOURTH year.

  10. #30
    I'd like to add a small point but hugely relevant regarding the evolution of Brady and why Sanchez is in a disadvantage. Up till 2005 and 2006, Brady had crappy receivers. But that's not the point i'm trying to make. The rules of the league then suited aggressive defense. There were less PI calls and you could really rough up receivers (Rodney Harrison). So the strategy then was to rely on the ground game with Dillon. The rules of the game then changed and it favored the passing game more after that. So they went to a spread offence.

    Sanchez strength is the play action, no doubt about it. He is not a pure passer. Can he be? Sure. But he needs to work on it. But he's just in a time where everyone is passing so by contrast, he's not as good as the others. I believe the Jets have to establish the run if they want to be successful. Sanchez is not a bad QB per se, he is just not built to play a spread offence. He would do really well in a run first offense.

  11. #31
    [QUOTE=JB1089;4234211][URL="http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/T/TeboTi00/gamelog/"]Tim Tebow[/URL][/QUOTE]


    Go look again.
    He played in 16 games.
    In some of those games he only had 1 or 2 rushes, in some he had zero stats.
    Still, he played/saw the field in 16 games.

    It’s not really important anyway, the point I was making had more to do with the overall stats and the fact that they are comparable given that everyone says how bad Tebow is and how great Mark is.

  12. #32
    [QUOTE=estang74;4234202]Here is why your comparison doesn't work. Tebow has only attempted 187 passes in his career. Two times this season he has thrown 10 or less passes in a game. The more passes you throw, the more incompletions and chances for int's you have. Now if you compare total passes, then you can have a more accurate idea and I guarantee you the completion percentage goes down as it already has from last season when he threw less passes and the int's will go up (or maybe not because Tebow can't hit the broadside of a barn)[/QUOTE]

    Maybe that is true, but wouldn’t you expect him to throw for more yards and account for more td’s too?

    Or does that remain the same and only the bad stats go up, like INTs, fumbles, lower completion percentage…

  13. #33
    [QUOTE=Monsterxman;4234241]Go look again.
    He played in 16 games.
    In some of those games he only had 1 or 2 rushes, in some he had zero stats.
    Still, he played/saw the field in 16 games.

    It’s not really important anyway, the point I was making had more to do with the overall stats and the fact that they are comparable [B]given that everyone says how bad Tebow is and how great Mark is.[/B][/QUOTE]

    Nothing wrong with using hyperbole and at least your half right. Everyone thinks Tebow is awful.
    Last edited by Winstonbiggs; 11-15-2011 at 01:08 PM.

  14. #34
    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;4234271]Nothing wrong with using hyperbole and at least your half right. Everyone thinks Tebow is awful.[/QUOTE]


    How else was I going to get people to think I was serious?

    :D

  15. #35
    [QUOTE=SMC;4234180]I applaud your efforts, PM, but your point is pretty much common knowledge.

    [B]The super-D teams are the exception, not the rule.[/B] And 4 of those teams (85 Bears, 86 Giants, 91 Skins, 2002 Bucs) had QBs wth pro bowl yrs.

    Very Good QB play is a must to win the SB and Sanchez hasn't produced that thus far this year.

    The silver lining is that there are still 7 games left where Sanchez can really make a push.[/QUOTE]

    I would also like to point out that Super-D teams are almost impossible to build anymore with the rules so heavily favoring the offense. In today's NFL is very hard with consistently with a great defense and strong running game.

    You have to be able to throw the ball downfield.

  16. #36
    We all love to stick the stats up to prove or disprove points and that is all well and good but my problem with Sanchez is the eyeball test and the team situation test.

    Eyeball test lat game he looked flat our crappy, jittery, looking back instead of downfield on a roll out. Slow decision making/reading. Parts of games he looks terrific and other parts of the same game he looks bad, offensive adversity causes him problems and early pressure gets him very jumpy.

    We know he can play at a high level in key games but it's getting frustrating not seeing that type of play come out more often. An early 1st round Qb is expected to elevate, even if it is slowly but he is up and down like the stock market.

    Also another worry is that this year he is facing his 1st real challenge with the make up of the rest of the team. His 1st two years he had the ultimate security blanket of a top 5 defense, running game and o-line.

  17. #37
    [QUOTE=fidelioion;4234288]I would also like to point out that Super-D teams are almost impossible to build anymore with the rules so heavily favoring the offense. In today's NFL is very hard with consistently with a great defense and strong running game.

    You have to be able to throw the ball downfield.[/QUOTE]

    The bigger issue isn't that the rules make it hard to build the teams, because a team with a crappy schedule can appear to have a devastating defense (you almost have to attach an L to whatever the niners end up with this year because 6 of their 16 games are against the Seahawks, Cardinals, and Rams).

    However, you run into Brady or Rodgers and that #1 defense in the league can quickly get shredded, just like how Tom stuck with a 2 TE set Sunday night and kept what looked like the Nickle on the field the whole time.........

    League-wide parity is high, but the gap between teams with awesome QB's and those without have never been worse. Especially with QB's quickly getting close to the 5,000 yard marks in single seasons............

    I don't even remember Marino pumping out 5-6 400 yard games a season............and he remains the best QB I've ever seen play.

  18. #38
    It's really delusional to say it's only his third year - what did the other guys do.
    Right. Sanchez with Bart Starr, Bradshaw, Montana, Staubach, Elway, Plunkett, Aikman etal. Why not compare Sanchez to Otto Graham and Unitas.
    Sanchez is lucky to be the #18 QB in the NFL right now. He is barely ok.
    I saw every QB on the list play and Unitas before. Sanchez - can everybody please be realistic. He is a lower level of talent.

  19. #39
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    Sanchez is not elite, but we don't know what he'll become yet. Keep in mind he only started 16 games in college and left a year early. This really should be his second year. Sanchez needs another year or two to see what he has. He got thrown into the fire right away. He needs time.

  20. #40
    The one thing I'm getting tired of hearing is how he's only 3rd year and "X" player only did this in his 3rd season. Can't I do the opposite? Dalton is a rookie, has the same stats as Sanchez and led his team to a better record so far. Ryan and Flacco recently put up great numbers in their 2nd seasons. These comparison arguments are stupid. Right now Sanchez is not where we want him to be, he's inconsistent and has to improve. It takes time to develop, but flops like Sunday night are getting tiresome

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