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Thread: Pepper Spraying the Protestors...where the police went wrong.

  1. #1
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    Pepper Spraying the Protestors...where the police went wrong.

    I'm sure most of you have seen the pics/new footage of the CA cop pepper spraying the line of protestors at that college. I am a cop and I think the police screwed up.

    The pepper spraying was entirely reasonable given that the protestors sat with arms interlocked. If they resisted empty handed control to seperate and remove them they'd likely claim brutality with the escort holds and various other control methods used to gain compliance.

    I have been pepper sprayed during OC training- it burns like hell but it almost always does not leave any lasting injury once you're decontaminated with water. The same can't be said for a shoulder or elbow dislocation, sprains and possibly broken bones inadvertantly suffered when cops try to remove a bunch of people refusing to unlock their arms from one another.

    I think the public doesn't realize that the police have the lawful authority to go "one up" on the level of the resistance they are encountering.

    Where the cops went wrong is to largely remain silent while the college big shots throw them to the media wolves. They wanted the protestors removed, the cops moved them. Is the college dean an expert in police training? Every PD has rules and regulations- if the OC use was covered in the PD policy how come the ivory tower micro managers didn't change it beforehand if it wasn't to their liking? If it was consistent with policy and training then why are they throwing their cops under the bus?

    To the folks who believe the police were wrong I ask you what you would have done? You have a couple dozen protestors with interlocked arms refusing to move despite repeated verbal commands ordering to do so. How to you seperate/move them?
    Last edited by PatriotReign; 11-22-2011 at 12:19 AM.

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    [QUOTE=PatriotReign;4246536]To the folks who believe the police were wrong I ask you what you would have done?[/QUOTE]

    I think we have a quite a few here who either would have joined them, or left them in-place to protest.

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    [QUOTE=PatriotReign;4246536]
    [B]
    I think the public doesn't realize that the police have the lawful authority to go "one up" on the level of the resistance they are encountering.[/B]
    [/QUOTE]

    Bingo.

    Some people don't care what the law says -- if they think something isn't "fair", then the accused party must be in the wrong.

    The fact that these protestors were willingly and purposefully defying police orders becomes practically irrelevant . . .

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    [QUOTE=Warfish;4246540]I think we have a quite a few here who either would have joined them, or left them in-place to protest.[/QUOTE]

    Pretty funny coming from the drama queen of JI.

    Patriot reign is correct about the force continuum, pepper spray is a better choice than getting hands on.

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    I am a law and order guy but what I saw was wrong. It was as if the cop was out of control. But let's not forget these were COLLEGE cops, not city cops. Not up to the same quality or discipline level.
    I think the way to handle it would have been to single out one person and either spray him or cuff and remove them - just one.

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    [QUOTE=palmetto defender;4246874]I am a law and order guy but what I saw was wrong. It was as if the cop was out of control. But let's not forget these were COLLEGE cops, not city cops. Not up to the same quality or discipline level.
    I think the way to handle it would have been to single out one person and either spray him or cuff and remove them - just one.[/QUOTE]

    They would've had to be careful to select a white male to be that just one or there would be all kinds of other problems.

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    [QUOTE=PatriotReign;4246536]I'm sure most of you have seen the pics/new footage of the CA cop pepper spraying the line of protestors at that college. I am a cop and I think the police screwed up.

    The pepper spraying was entirely reasonable given that the protestors sat with arms interlocked. If they resisted empty handed control to seperate and remove them they'd likely claim brutality with the escort holds and various other control methods used to gain compliance.

    I have been pepper sprayed during OC training- it burns like hell but it almost always does not leave any lasting injury once you're decontaminated with water. The same can't be said for a shoulder or elbow dislocation, sprains and possibly broken bones inadvertantly suffered when cops try to remove a bunch of people refusing to unlock their arms from one another.

    I think the public doesn't realize that the police have the lawful authority to go "one up" on the level of the resistance they are encountering.

    Where the cops went wrong is to largely remain silent while the college big shots throw them to the media wolves. They wanted the protestors removed, the cops moved them. Is the college dean an expert in police training? Every PD has rules and regulations- if the OC use was covered in the PD policy how come the ivory tower micro managers didn't change it beforehand if it wasn't to their liking? If it was consistent with policy and training then why are they throwing their cops under the bus?

    To the folks who believe the police were wrong I ask you what you would have done? You have a couple dozen protestors with interlocked arms refusing to move despite repeated verbal commands ordering to do so. How to you seperate/move them?[/QUOTE]

    Several "talking heads" on TV agree with you. It LOOKED awful, but as I thought it through.... GOOD!

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    Where this episode went wrong was trying to move a bunch of protesters from sitting across a foot path and camping in tents in the quad. The Horror of kids sitting around and hanging out! A brief study of American history will show you the best way for colleges to deal with this behavoir is to ignore it. In the past demonstrators have occupied (sit-ins) college buildings and were not treated so poorly. Usually after a week or two all of the kids get bored and go back to their dorms.

    This was just politically dumb.

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    [QUOTE=palmetto defender;4246874]I am a law and order guy but what I saw was wrong. It was as if the cop was out of control. But let's not forget these were COLLEGE cops, not city cops. Not up to the same quality or discipline level.[/quote]

    I don't live in CA but I know that the large college police officers are POST certified and attend the same police academies as the city and towns do. If anything the discipline level would be higher because its drilled into their heads that each college kids tuition is considered an investment.

    [quote]I think the way to handle it would have been to single out one person and either spray him or cuff and remove them - just one.[/QUOTE]

    This reminds me of the "why didn't the police just shoot the guy in the leg" crtiques when a cop has to resort to deadly force. What I'm trying to say is that either the cop had the lawful authorty to deploy the pepper spray or he didn't. There is no such thing as half pregnant when it comes to the use of force.

    I doubt there is a requirement in CA law or department policy that requires the police to single out someone to set an example. Also as noted by JetPotato how do you single a person out for this targeted use of force? The protestors were not naive school children, they were young adults who refused to comply with repeated lawful commands to leave/move. The fact that their willful refusal to comply with the law lead to an unpleasent consequence does not equate to brutality.

    This is why cops are against civilian review boards. BTW I wouldn't have a problem with a CRB if said civilians had to complete a police academy. That way they'd understand that sometimes enforcing the law isn't always pretty or politically correct.

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    [QUOTE=PatriotReign;4246999]I don't live in CA but I know that the large college police officers are POST certified and attend the same police academies as the city and towns do. If anything the discipline level would be higher because its drilled into their heads that each college kids tuition is considered an investment.



    This reminds me of the "why didn't the police just shoot the guy in the leg" crtiques when a cop has to resort to deadly force. What I'm trying to say is that either the cop had the lawful authorty to deploy the pepper spray or he didn't. There is no such thing as half pregnant when it comes to the use of force.

    I doubt there is a requirement in CA law or department policy that requires the police to single out someone to set an example. Also as noted by JetPotato how do you single a person out for this targeted use of force? The protestors were not naive school children, they were young adults who refused to comply with repeated lawful commands to leave/move. The fact that their willful refusal to comply with the law lead to an unpleasent consequence does not equate to brutality.

    This is why cops are against civilian review boards. BTW I wouldn't have a problem with a CRB if said civilians had to complete a police academy. That way they'd understand that sometimes enforcing the law isn't always pretty or politically correct.[/QUOTE]


    Your second point is off. Obviously, a police officer can't always pinpoint a bullet strike. BUT, he can choose the method of deployment. Cuff the easiest looking target. Single out is the simple way.
    I think the kids are punks and in all honesty, in my younger days would have had problems restraining myself if I was a police officer. Sometimes in a combat situation it was hard not shooting the civilian you KNEW was a bad guy. But.....

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    What ever happened to German Shepard's and fire hoses?

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    [QUOTE=palmetto defender;4247012]Your second point is off. Obviously, a police officer can't always pinpoint a bullet strike. BUT, he can choose the method of deployment. [B]Cuff the easiest looking target. Single out is the simple way.[/B]
    I think the kids are punks and in all honesty, in my younger days would have had problems restraining myself if I was a police officer. Sometimes in a combat situation it was hard not shooting the civilian you KNEW was a bad guy. But.....[/QUOTE]

    That is how cops get hurt. What does the easiest looking look like exactly?

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    [QUOTE=palmetto defender;4246874] It was as if the cop was out of control. [/QUOTE]

    Funny...I saw the opposite; He seemed to be calmly executing a strategy to achieve the goal placed upon him by the University, using a tool and training provided by his dept.

    This stuff irritates...its doesnt injure, in place of physical contact and force... yet the press feeds into... and perpetuates the public outrage.

    Just because you place yourself under the umbrella of protest, doesnt exempt you from following lawful instructions. These kids bought a ticket....and saw a show.

    The cops were told to move them, the kids refused, and they were moved [I]with no injuries. [/I]

    It was tough to watch, but so is alot of police work; People want it done, but they dont want to see it getting done.

    -

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    [QUOTE=cr726;4247364]That is how cops get hurt. What does the easiest looking look like exactly?[/QUOTE]


    The smallest and weakest and one cowering.
    You don't think lions atttack the largest wildebeast, do you? Look for the easy "kill".

  15. #15
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    School will be paying all costs of the protestors.

    Lawsuits inbound.

    Firings inbound.

    A clear win by OWS.

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    [QUOTE=cr726;4246584]Pretty funny coming from the drama queen of JI.

    Patriot reign is correct about the force continuum, pepper spray is a better choice than getting hands on.[/QUOTE]

    [QUOTE]Respiratory responses to OC spray include burning of the throat, wheezing, dry cough, shortness of breath, gagging, gasping, inability to breathe or speak (due to laryngospasm or laryngeal paralysis), and, rarely, cyanosis, apnea, and respiratory arrest. Nasal application of capsaicin causes sneezing, irritation, and reflex mucus secretion. Its inhalation can cause acute hypertension (similar to ammonia inhalation), which in turn can cause headache and increase the risk of stroke or heart attack.

    [/QUOTE]

    So pepper spraying Americans is acceptable to you but water boarding terrorists(which causes no physical harm) hell bent on annihilating Americans is torture and unacceptable?

    Got it........

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    [QUOTE=DeanPatsFan;4248417]So pepper spraying Americans is acceptable to you but water boarding terrorists(which causes no physical harm) hell bent on annihilating Americans is torture and unacceptable?

    Got it........[/QUOTE]

    They were blocking a sidewalk.

    [IMG]http://www.anaglyph.net/kevin/LJ/20070128/oh-the-huge-manatee.jpg[/IMG]

  18. #18
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    [QUOTE=DeanPatsFan;4248417]So pepper spraying Americans is acceptable to you but water boarding terrorists(which causes no physical harm) hell bent on annihilating Americans is torture and unacceptable?

    Got it........[/QUOTE]

    Really? Holy sh!t, please go to a Pats site. You are desperate for attention.

  19. #19
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    [QUOTE=cr726;4248484] please go to a Pats site. You are desperate for attention.[/QUOTE]

    Ummmm no.....

    I'm just asking why that vacuous orb on your shoulders thinks pepper spraying, which can cause extreme pain, even health complications is perfectly acceptable on Americans, who I admit are imbeciles but pose no real threat to other Americans...Yet, water boarding knuckle dragging troglodytes that want to annihilate America/Americans is unacceptable torture even though it causes no real physical pain....

    Just trying to get a grasp of the bizzaro libtard mentality here.....

  20. #20
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    [QUOTE=DeanPatsFan;4248525]Ummmm no.....

    I'm just asking why that vacuous orb on your shoulders thinks pepper spraying, which can cause extreme pain, even health complications is perfectly acceptable on Americans, who I admit are imbeciles but pose no real threat to other Americans...Yet, water boarding knuckle dragging troglodytes that want to annihilate America/Americans is unacceptable torture even though it causes no real physical pain....

    Just trying to get a grasp of the bizzaro libtard mentality here.....[/QUOTE]

    You're reaching. In order for me to carry pepper spray I had to be sprayed with it and the majority of police departments use it because it is non-lethal. I am not going to argue with you about water boarding because your argument is stupid.

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