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Thread: Photo ID Requirement in Illinois...

  1. #21
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    [QUOTE=Phoenixx;4318913]Perhaps Palmetto can fill in the details about his home state..but it appears what would satisfy PK does not satisfy EH.

    The new South Carolina law requiring photo ID to vote provides State Photo IDs for those who wish one....for free.

    Additionally, it offers rides to the polling places for any SC resident who is unable to get to the poll on their own. They also offered this to those who require it.....for free.


    The new South Carolina law was ruled invalid by Eric Holder's Justice Department.[/QUOTE]

    My point exactly. It is NOT about constitutionality...it is about making it easy for those here on the dole to vote.

  2. #22
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    [QUOTE=piney;4317973]I don't thnk that is the same thing. IDs cost money. Who foots that bill? Who determnes when they expire? Forcing me to pay for an ID in order to exercise my right to vote doesn't pas the smell test.[/quote]

    Do you have an ID Piney?

    If so, no one forced you, did they?

    How does one get through life in the modern world, without any form of legal photo ID?

    Do you know, personally, anyone in that spot?

    If so, why don't they have an ID? Are you saying a $5.00 ID is too much for them to afford, they literally do not have $5.00 at any point?

    Please, I want to understand who all these masses of soon-to-be-denied voters ARE, in the real world, and why they cannot aquire a legal ID.

    And if asking for a photo ID is a step to far, can we not ask for whatever OTHER ID all these claimed poor ID'less people use in their day to day lives to prove who they are? They must have something, right?

    [quote]I didn't know buying beer was a constitutional right.[/QUOTE]

    Even Constitutional Rights have limits.

    For example, the Liberal favorite, Gun Registration and Buying Limitation Laws (i.e. Gun Control).

    If the Right was as justified as the left on THAT issue, and took the line of argument you're taking here, there would be NO mandated registration of any kind, no background checks of any kind, and no limits of any kind.

    In fact, one wouldn;t even need t show a Picture ID to buy a gun, right?

    As you say, since when did one have to register, suffer a background check, and face intrinsic limitations on their right to vote?

    There seems a logic break here. It's ok to limit gun rights in a myriad of ways, for public good. It's ok to limit freedom of speech in many ways, for public good.

    But it's NOT ok to have voters prove who they are, that they actually HAVE teh right they wish to use?

    How do you explain this?
    Last edited by Warfish; 01-08-2012 at 06:46 PM.

  3. #23
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    [QUOTE=Warfish;4319089]Please, I want to understand who all these masses of soon-to-be-denied voters ARE, in the real world, and why they cannot aquire a legal ID.[/QUOTE]

    Please...I want to see the massive amounts of voter fraud that has occurred that makes new laws imperative....:P

  4. #24
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    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan;4319170]Please...I want to see the massive amounts of voter fraud that has occurred that makes new laws imperative....:P[/QUOTE]

    Go work at a polling place in November. You'll see it. Guaranteed.

    Voting fraud is rampant in this country.

  5. #25
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    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan;4316633]5 years ago...Republicans would have been jizzing all over themselves to pass a law like this...being that the particular chemical used in the attacks on the woman was sulfuric acid, not Drano.

    And sulfuric acid combined with other chemicals commonly found under your kitchen sink can be used to make a bomb.


    A BOMB!!!!!


    HOLY HELLL!!


    A CHEMICAL BOMB!!




    But keep in mind when you see this story lighting up the right wingnuts blogs (as it is right now) that these are the same people that had woman drinking their own breastmilk in airport security checkpoints after 9/11.[/QUOTE]
    No offense, but you do not add anything constructive to this forum.

  6. #26
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    [QUOTE=JetPotato;4319526]Go work at a polling place in November. You'll see it. Guaranteed.

    Voting fraud is rampant in this country.[/QUOTE]

    Cool.

    Just asked my GF who works at a polling place every year...and she said she never saw any "fraud".

    [QUOTE=Ernie]No offense, but you do not add anything constructive to this forum.[/QUOTE]

    And neither do you, Ernie. Sadly. :P

  7. #27
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    [QUOTE=JetPotato;4319526]Go work at a polling place in November. You'll see it. Guaranteed.

    Voting fraud is rampant in this country.[/QUOTE]

    How would you know?

  8. #28
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    There is voter fraud, registration fraud and electoral fraud (committed by govt officials)

    As the U.S. Supreme Court (Stevens) said when it upheld Indiana’s photo-ID law in 2008, “Flagrant examples of such fraud . . . have been documented throughout this Nation’s history by respected historians and journalists.”

    [URL]http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/29/washington/28cnd-scotus.html[/URL]

    [URL]http://www.cantonrep.com/opinion/letters/x1468791494/Court-statistics-side-with-need-for-value-of-voter-ID-law[/URL]

  9. #29
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    [QUOTE=Warfish;4319089]Do you have an ID Piney?[/QUOTE]

    of course I do, so I can drive.

    [QUOTE]If so, no one forced you, did they?[/QUOTE]

    what does that have to do with anything?

    [QUOTE]How does one get through life in the modern world, without any form of legal photo ID?[/QUOTE]

    You know how often I take out my ID. Never. I think the last time I took out my ID was 13 years ago to get into a bar. Obviously I have used ID in air travel, but not everyone flies.

    [QUOTE]Do you know, personally, anyone in that spot?[/QUOTE]

    I don't know, never asked.

    [QUOTE]If so, why don't they have an ID? Are you saying a $5.00 ID is too much for them to afford, they literally do not have $5.00 at any point?[/QUOTE]

    I think telling someone they have to get an ID and go through the process and pay a fee in order to vote is a little shady.

    I don't think the gov't can realistically get a photo ID out to everyone who wants to vote. You provide a system where grandma Pine doesn't have to go down to the DMV and pay out of her fixed income to get a voter ID and then I am all for it.



    [QUOTE]Please, I want to understand who all these masses of soon-to-be-denied voters ARE, in the real world, and why they cannot aquire a legal ID.[/QUOTE]

    so it has to be masses. I guess if only a few people get denied their right by the inconvenience, it is okay in the grand scheme of things. I never took you for limiting rights for the greater good. When did you become a liberal?

    [QUOTE]And if asking for a photo ID is a step to far, can we not ask for whatever OTHER ID all these claimed poor ID'less people use in their day to day lives to prove who they are? They must have something, right?[/QUOTE]

    I really don't know. I don't know everyone.
    [QUOTE]
    Even Constitutional Rights have limits.[/QUOTE]

    I guess some do. I never really looked into it. I believe in the "you have the right swing your fists as much as you want up until you reach the tip of my nose" so, as long as you don't infringe on someone else's rights, go crazy/.

    [QUOTE]For example, the Liberal favorite, Gun Registration and Buying Limitation Laws (i.e. Gun Control).

    If the Right was as justified as the left on THAT issue, and took the line of argument you're taking here, there would be NO mandated registration of any kind, no background checks of any kind, and no limits of any kind.

    In fact, one wouldn;t even need t show a Picture ID to buy a gun, right?

    As you say, since when did one have to register, suffer a background check, and face intrinsic limitations on their right to vote?[/QUOTE]

    funny, when people play this game with you I can actually see steam come out of your ears via your response, but you don't have a problem using the tactic as well.

    I think that is the NRAs stance on gun control.

    [QUOTE][I]In its lobbying for gun rights, the NRA asserts the Second Amendment guarantees the right of individuals to bear arms. The NRA opposes measures which it believes conflict with the Second Amendment and/or the right to privacy enjoyed by gun owning citizens. Additionally, the NRA has litigated against legislation such as the Brady Bill on the grounds that it conflicted with the Tenth Amendment, not the Second Amendment. Because the NRA considers gun ownership to be a civil right, the organization calls itself the "oldest civil rights organization in the United States", as it was founded in 1871.[19][20][21][/I][/QUOTE]

    and they are not alone"

    [QUOTE][I]he NRA has been criticized by other gun rights groups for doing too little to get existing restrictions repealed, and sometimes helping to draft restrictive legislation. This critique is most often voiced by gun rights organizations and libertarians or conservatives who take a more comprehensive view of the Second Amendment and Bill of Rights, and are viewed as being less amenable to compromise on these issues, e.g. Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership (JPFO), and Gun Owners of America (GOA). GOA has castigated the NRA in the past for what it perceives as its willingness to compromise on legislative restrictions concerning access to firearms.[50][/I][/QUOTE]

    basically, there are plenty of people and a lot of money behind the extrapolated logic you just provided. Are they wrong? I don't know. I am not really big into guns, but I am also not big into gun regulation. I think, for the most part, gun laws are an exercise in futility. Bad guys will get guns. Every now and then a nut case will do something stupid. People who are responsible gun owners shouldn't be inconvenienced in the act of exercising there constitutional rights just to make people feel better.



    [QUOTE]There seems a logic break here. It's ok to limit gun rights in a myriad of ways, for public good. It's ok to limit freedom of speech in many ways, for public good.

    But it's NOT ok to have voters prove who they are, that they actually HAVE teh right they wish to use?

    How do you explain this?[/QUOTE]

    you will have to ask people who believe in those two things, I don't believe in restricting either for the public good.

    Look, if there is a way to provide IDs for people who don't have them without making them pay a fee or have to jump through hoops to get it, then I say go for it, but if the idea is, "get your ass down to the DMV and pay for an ID that expires every three years and that you have to pay renewal fees in order to vote" then no, I don't agree with that.

    can't make it much plainer than that.
    Last edited by piney; 01-08-2012 at 10:27 PM.

  10. #30
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    Meanwhile these voters who can not afford an ID chat loudly into their i-Phones.

  11. #31
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    [QUOTE=southparkcpa;4317989]What ID is acceptable in your view? SAMs club card?[/QUOTE]

    something that is neither an inconvenience and alienates someone from exercising their rights.

    [QUOTE]You take the constitutional right so lightly to allow those who won't get an ID a chance to vote. [/QUOTE]

    I thought when I was born I got these rights, I didn't realize we have to now limit our rights for the greater good. When did all of you guys turn into liberals? Our system of is not infallible, but it is the best one out there. Sometimes to have the freedoms we have things can get messy. I'd rather have messy than less freedom.

    [QUOTE]To not recognize it opens the way for non citizens to elect our leaders is sad.
    [/QUOTE]

    I never said that, but I doubt it is some new epidemic. Create a better system of voter registration and maybe not have the local senior center run the polling station.

    [QUOTE][B]heck[/B]...we issue SS cards......how hard would a photo ID be to do?[/QUOTE]

    so my photo ID would have my baby picture on it? that doesn't sound right at all. And watch the salty language!

    Small price to pay for the right to vote.[/QUOTE]

  12. #32
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    [QUOTE=piney;4319808]of course I do, so I can drive.[/quote]

    Not so hard or costly then, eh?

    [QUOTE]what does that have to do with anything?[/QUOTE]

    You managed to somehow get one, and I'm guessing not specificly to vote, without being forced.

    Yet you think there is some large population who is lesser than yourself, less intelligent, less capable, less in need of having....basic ID?

    [QUOTE]You know how often I take out my ID. Never. I think the last time I took out my ID was 13 years ago to get into a bar. Obviously I have used ID in air travel, but not everyone flies.[/QUOTE]

    Never use it....yet, oddly, you still have it.

    Wow.

    [QUOTE]I don't know, never asked.[/QUOTE]

    Then what is your basis that there is any meaningful population unable (not unwilling, but truly unable) to aquire an ID?

    [QUOTE]I think telling someone they have to get an ID and go through the process and pay a fee in order to vote is a little shady. [/QUOTE]

    And I think not having to show any proof of who you are when you vote is shadier.

    What is it about proof of person that bugs you so, eh? Please, explain why proving who you are is somehow too high a burden for people, other than you of course?

    [QUOTE]I don't think the gov't can realistically get a photo ID out to everyone who wants to vote. You provide a system where grandma Pine doesn't have to go down to the DMV and pay out of her fixed income to get a voter ID and then I am all for it. [/QUOTE]

    "Pay out of her fixed income", what a lol red herring.

    $5.00

    Once. Every Five Years.

    What a burden.:rolleyes:

    [QUOTE]so it has to be masses. I guess if only a few people get denied their right by the inconvenience, it is okay in the grand scheme of things. I never took you for limiting rights for the greater good. When did you become a liberal?[/QUOTE]

    Proving you are who you say you are is not, in ANY form, a limitation of a right.


    [QUOTE]I really don't know. I don't know everyone.[/QUOTE]

    Aparrently, despire arguing for them, you don;t know ANYONE who fals into the category you feels needs defening.

    I wonder if any of them actually exist.

    I guess some do. I never really looked into it. I believe in the "you have the right swing your fists as much as you want up until you reach the tip of my nose" so, as long as you don't infringe on someone else's rights, go crazy/.



    [QUOTE]funny, when people play this game with you I can actually see steam come out of your ears via your response, but you don't have a problem using the tactic as well.

    I think that is the NRAs stance on gun control. [/QUOTE]

    A definition non-answer.

    No worries, I'll wait till you figure out how to squiggle past the obvious contradiction in argument.

    [quote]Look, if there is a way to provide IDs for people who don't have them without making them pay a fee or have to jump through hoops to get it, then I say go for it, but if the idea is, "get your ass down to the DMV and pay for an ID that expires every three years and that you have to pay renewal fees in order to vote" then no, I don't agree with that.

    can't make it much plainer than that.[/QUOTE]

    And I can't either. Proving you are who you claim to be is not a limitation of a right, period.

    It's stunning anyone would think otherwise. I'd love to know what OTHER areas of everyday life you'd be ok with me telling someone I'm you, without having to prove it, and getting to use your right.

    I'll wait while you summon up a list.;)

  13. #33
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    [QUOTE=Warfish;4319851]Not so hard or costly then, eh?



    You managed to somehow get one, and I'm guessing not specificly to vote, without being forced.

    Yet you think there is some large population who is lesser than yourself, less intelligent, less capable, less in need of having....basic ID?[/QUOTE]

    when did I say that? I never even hinted that there is a large number of people who couldn't do it, I just don't think it is a good direction to go in.



    [QUOTE]Never use it....yet, oddly, you still have it.

    Wow.[/QUOTE]

    I never get pulled over, I am a nerdy looking white guy. Very non-threatening.



    [QUOTE]Then what is your basis that there is any meaningful population unable (not unwilling, but truly unable) to aquire an ID?[/QUOTE]

    again, when did I say this?



    [QUOTE]And I think not having to show any proof of who you are when you vote is shadier.[/QUOTE]

    perhaps, but it is the nature of the beast

    [QUOTE]What is it about proof of person that bugs you so, eh? Please, explain why proving who you are is somehow too high a burden for people, other than you of course?[/QUOTE]

    man are you twisting this argument. Creating strawmen left and right. Another thing you call people out on regularly.




    [QUOTE]"Pay out of her fixed income", what a lol red herring.

    $5.00

    Once. Every Five Years.

    What a burden.:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

    I guess we should do that for every right we have? Want freedom of speech, that will be $5 buck every five years, want the fifth amendment? Five bucks please.

    I don't agree with setting the precedent that we now have to pay in order to exercise our constitutional rights, sorry you disagree and are fine with forking over money to the gov't for your rights.



    [QUOTE]Proving you are who you say you are is not, in ANY form, a limitation of a right.[/QUOTE]

    How about a hypothetical. It is election year in Chicago, and there is a district that generally votes republican, and the democrat heavy state senate suddenly closes the facility in that district that people could go to for the ID. Maybe they relocate it to a low income neighborhood. Now the seniors who may vote for the republican have to go three or four districts out of their way in order to get their ID. Is that something you really couldn't see happen? Shady Dems moving voter registration ID places around to actually make it harder for people they don't want to vote to get an ID?


    [QUOTE]A definition non-answer. No worries, I'll wait till you figure out how to squiggle past the obvious contradiction in argument.[/QUOTE]

    Why do I have to answer for policies I don't agree with? Now I have to defend everything. I will type it slowly so you read it: I don't believe in gun restrictions. People on the right do fight background checks and waiting periods and cite that it is unconstitutional and alienates their 2nd amendment rights. Your hypothetical is not only a false representation of my beliefs but also false in that the right do use the same tactics as the left.





    [QUOTE]And I can't either. Proving you are who you claim to be is not a limitation of a right, period.
    [/QUOTE]


    again, strawman. It isn't about proving who you are, it is about adding stipulations, costs, and inconvenience to what is basically one f our most sacred rights. I don't agree with doing that.


    [QUOTE]It's stunning anyone would think otherwise. I'd love to know what OTHER areas of everyday life you'd be ok with me telling someone I'm you, without having to prove it, and getting to use your right.

    I'll wait while you summon up a list.;)[/QUOTE]

    another strawman extrapolation, who are you Bitoni? 0
    where did I say I was okay with it?

    So if I am saying I don't think forcing people to get photo ID and pay a fee to vote is exactly constitutional I am now actually saying I am okay with identity theft.

    I'd love to know what other rights you are okay with the gov't making you pay a fee to exercise. I'll wait for your list as well.

    I think you have been chasing monsters too long....
    Last edited by piney; 01-08-2012 at 11:21 PM.

  14. #34
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    [QUOTE=piney;4319893]I never even hinted that there is a large number of people who couldn't do it[/quote]

    There is not a single person who could not aquire ID. Not one.

    [QUOTE]I just don't think it is a good direction to go in.[/QUOTE]

    Proving you are who you claim is not a good direction to go in. Got it.

    [QUOTE]man are you twisting this argument. Creating strawmen left and right. Another thing you call people out on regularly.[/QUOTE]

    And you're dodging the issue like a Rodeo Clown dodges the Bull, my friend.

    [QUOTE]I guess we should do that for every right we have? Want freedom of speech, that will be $5 buck every five years, want the fifth amendment? Five bucks please.[/QUOTE]

    What aspect of Freedom of Speech would, in order to be performed, require an ID?

    Thats right, none.

    Voting, however, is strictly "one man, one vote", and hence intrinsicly REQUIRES knowledge that you are the one man, making the one vote you have the right to make, that you claim to be.

    [QUOTE]I don't agree with setting the precedent that we now have to pay in order to exercise our constitutional rights[/QUOTE]

    You don't.

    You simply have to prove you are who you say you are.

    And a Photo ID is the simplest, cheapest, way to do that. But I'm supportive of ANY number of legal ways to prove one's identity.

    For example, every American Citizen has a Social Security Card, do they not?

    Again, prove your point. Show me an example of a person with no legal identification whatsoever that is an American Citizen with the right to vote. Show us an exemplar of who you're here defending.

    [QUOTE]sorry you disagree and are fine with forking over money to the gov't for your rights.[/QUOTE]

    I have an ID. I'm not part of the make-believe population of "don't have any ID at all" you appear to be representing in this debate.

    [QUOTE]How about a hypothetical. It is election year in Chicago, and there is a district that generally votes republican, and the democrat heavy state senate suddenly closes the facility in that district that people could go to for the ID.[/QUOTE]

    A laughable and totaly fantasy hypothetical. Govt. offices have schedules, they don't close early on election day to deprive people their right to vote (first) and again, I'm supportive of proving ones identity to vote, not specificly with a Driver's Licence. But some form of verifyable ID.

    [QUOTE]Maybe they relocate it to a low income neighborhood. Now the seniors who may vote for the republican have to go three or four districts out of their way in order to get their ID. Is that something you really couldn't see happen? Shady Dems moving voter registration ID places around to actually make it harder for people they don't want to vote to get an ID?[/QUOTE]

    Are you being serious? Red Herrings, derails and fantasy conspiracy theories will not sway a straitforward and basic argument.

    One man, One Vote, Prove You Are Who You Claim To Be. Period.

    [quote]I think you have been chasing monsters too long....[/QUOTE]

    Frankly, you're replies thus far are well below your usual quality, and unworthy of continued debate.
    Last edited by Warfish; 01-08-2012 at 11:55 PM.

  15. #35
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    [QUOTE=Warfish;4319950]



    Frankly, you're replies thus far are well below your usual quality, and unworthy of continued debate.[/QUOTE]

    because you are ignoring what I am saying and somehow making it sound as if I am saying something else.



    I don't have a real stake in this issue. It doesn't affect me either way, but it could reasonably affect someone, and therefore their right to vote is hindered.

    whatever, I don't care about enough this topic to keep jousting your windmills.

  16. #36
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    [QUOTE=piney;4320000]because you are ignoring what I am saying and somehow making it sound as if I am saying something else.



    I don't have a real stake in this issue. It doesn't affect me either way, but it could reasonably affect someone, and therefore their right to vote is hindered.

    whatever, I don't care about enough this topic to keep jousting your windmills.[/QUOTE]

    If photo ID cards were needed to pick up an entitlement......there would be no such outrage. So you simply want a person to walk in and vote based on what excatly? A power bill? Perhaps a verizon phone bill?

  17. #37
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    [QUOTE=southparkcpa;4320066]If photo ID cards were needed to pick up an entitlement......there would be no such outrage. So you simply want a person to walk in and vote based on what excatly? A power bill? Perhaps a verizon phone bill?[/QUOTE]

    Rights vs. privilege

    Why do you want to keep on ignoring that simple yet significant difference? South Carolina had to ask DOJ first because of their past dealings with minorities.

  18. #38
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    Saturday I had to show my photo ID at the drug store to but cold medicine. I have never tcouched meth, and wouldn't unless you put a gun to my head. Sucks that we have to show ID because fo these cretins. When the pharm tech asked for the ID, I showed it and moved on.

    When I moved to VA from RI I had to go to the DMV and chaneg mar car eg and get a VA liscense. I took the half day out of work, found the closest DMV and did it. I was not making much then and Northen VA is extremely expensive, but somehow I managed to survive the hideous ordeal.

    again, if you can show the financial need, I say waive the ID fee. But if you don't have a job, surely you have time to go to the DMV, right?

  19. #39
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    [QUOTE=cr726;4319696]How would you know?[/QUOTE]

    Like I've said before on this forum, I have worked at polling places periodically for about 20 years and I have close family members who work at the Board of Elections. I've been politcially active as a both a volunteer and an elected offical at local, county and state levels since I was in high school.

    Dead people vote. Illegal immigrants vote. Citizens vote in multiple states. Every. Single. Election. I've witnessed it with my own eyes and ears. It is beyond frustrating to me and to many others that there is nothing that we can do about it as it happens right before our eyes. And worse when people do it, and openly laugh about it, with no shame in admitting it.

    Anyone with any common sense would see why it is wrong and would be willing to implement laws to fix that. Simple laws like the checking of IDs. Even if it meant giving free state issued ones to those who supposedly can't afford one.

    But some people don't want to go there. Because very simply, voter fraud is to their benefit.

  20. #40
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    photo ID to vote law is the last desperate throes of a dying party

    let's be real

    the GOP has no new ideas, a serious demographics problem and flat out less registered voters than the DNC. Every day that goes by the country gets browner and less GOP. if Rich people's votes counted twice the GOP might be viable. as it stands they don't have the numbers to win a general election.

    these laws, and also gerrymandering that is occurring on the state level, are signs of the last days of the GOP. let them have their photo ID laws. It won't matter.

    to be clear I don't think conservatism is dead. In fact the tea party and libertarian threads will probably grow up and replace the GOP in a future incarnation of the 2 party system. but the brand of Republican politics, synonymous with W Bush, Newt etc is tainted, and a few more general elections it will be a memory.

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