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Thread: Obama vs the Catholic Church

  1. #21
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    If someone wanted these sorts of things covered by their health insurance plan, no one is preventing them from working for an employer who's plan covers them. One does not have "the right" to work for a Catholic school or hospital. And a Catholic hospital or school does not have the ability to demand that an individual work for them. It is ultimately a question of choice. What is more important to the individual, that birth control be covered or that they have a good job. Life is all about choices. This is just one of them.

  2. #22
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    [QUOTE=Ernie;4364822]If someone wanted these sorts of things covered by their health insurance plan, no one is preventing them from working for an employer who's plan covers them. One does not have "the right" to work for a Catholic school or hospital. And a Catholic hospital or school does not have the ability to demand that an individual work for them. It is ultimately a question of choice. What is more important to the individual, that birth control be covered or that they have a good job. Life is all about choices. This is just one of them.[/QUOTE]

    The problem is people aren't making the right choices so the government needs to make them for them!

  3. #23
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    The Healthcare business isn't religous. If a religous organization wants to provide health care and takes payment or insurance for it and provides health insurance to their employees, they should comply with the laws of our secular society. That in no way excludes them from practicing their religous beliefs.

    Women deserve to have their health care which includes reproductive services provided for by health care providers.

  4. #24
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    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;4364867]The Healthcare business isn't religous. If a religous organization wants to provide health care and takes payment or insurance for it and provides health insurance to their employees, they should comply with the laws of our secular society. That in no way excludes them from practicing their religous beliefs.

    Women deserve to have their health care which includes reproductive services provided for by health care providers.[/QUOTE]

    They can make the choice to go to a secular hospital or work in a secular business. My kids were both born in a Catholic hospital but when my ex wanted her tubes tied when she was in for a different procedure her doctor did the operation in the surgery building of a municipal hospital. Our insurance paid for all of the aforementioned procedures.

    Where is the problem?

  5. #25
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    [QUOTE=Trades;4364892]They can make the choice to go to a secular hospital or work in a secular business. My kids were both born in a Catholic hospital but when my ex wanted her tubes tied when she was in for a different procedure her doctor did the operation in the surgery building of a municipal hospital. Our insurance paid for all of the aforementioned procedures.

    Where is the problem?[/QUOTE]

    Why should our secular government license a hospital or doctors that refuses to treat women based on their religous beliefs? Where is the problem?

  6. #26
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    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;4364906]Why should our secular government license a hospital or doctors that refuses to treat women based on their religous beliefs? Where is the problem?[/QUOTE]

    Why not? Separation of church and state and a free market says they shouldn't care either way.

  7. #27
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    [QUOTE=Trades;4364911]Why not? Separation of church and state and a free market says they shouldn't care either way.[/QUOTE]

    When a Church steps into the arena of providing health care and other none religious services they are no longer simply in the faith business.

  8. #28
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    [QUOTE=FF2;4364399]As soon as the catholic church actually does something about the systematic creation of pedophile priests, then, maybe, they can claim some kind of moral high ground to lecture us all from.

    Until then they can STFU and stay out of my vagina.[/QUOTE]


    I always thought you had a vagina. Thanks for coming clean and admitting it.
    That said, there are some pedophile priests AND pedophile RABBIS too. I am sure you are aware of that. And pedophiles in every religion and profession. As for moral high ground - how wou you recognize it. Most religions are a positive force in people's lives. This president who is essentially born and brought up a Moslem is anti Catholic.
    This is a fight he can't win. Sue the Church? That's illegal. BTW, there are 6 Supreme Court justices who are Catholic. One is a commie but the other 5 will stick it in his ear.

  9. #29
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    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;4364867]The Healthcare business isn't religous. If a religous organization wants to provide health care and takes payment or insurance for it and provides health insurance to their employees, they should comply with the laws of our secular society. That in no way excludes them from practicing their religous beliefs.

    Women deserve to have their health care which includes reproductive services provided for by health care providers.[/QUOTE]...wrong...churches and religion have been in the healing business long before FF got sand in his vagina...

  10. #30
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    [QUOTE=FF2;4364465]Why is the church in the healthcare business anyway?[/QUOTE]

    The Church, because you are such an informed genius, has been involved in health care for well over a thousand years. The have had hospitals and orders (you of course have heard of the Knights Hospitalers) that have been most involved.
    There are numerous Catholic hospitals throught the U.S. and other countries to help people who want a religious order helping.
    Nuns work in many of those facilities. Patients find that comforting plus they have a better work ethic. Jews have hospitals as well.
    Plus, how about Catholic schools and other organizations being required to provides birth control to employees.
    Hey, how about Jewish organizations being required to serve pork regularly for "dietary diversity". Sounds like a Michelle program.
    It is government overreach.

  11. #31
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    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;4364921]When a Church steps into the arena of providing health care and other none religious services they are no longer simply in the faith business.[/QUOTE]

    I'm confused by your response here. If a religious institution is kind enough to provide health insurance to its employees why would they not have the right to determine what the coverage should entail. If a NFP Catholic charity decides that their insurance will not fund abortions shouldn't that be their right. Their employees can go to Planned Parenthood and get free abortions there. They can also reach in their pockets and kick in the few hundred dollars that the procedure costs. I don't see the big deal here. Why is government involved in this issue?

  12. #32
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    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;4364867]The Healthcare business isn't religous. If a religous organization wants to provide health care and takes payment or insurance for it and provides health insurance to their employees, they should comply with the laws of our secular society. That in no way excludes them from practicing their religous beliefs.[/QUOTE]

    Completely agreed.

    [QUOTE]Women deserve to have their health care which includes reproductive services provided for by health care providers.[/QUOTE]

    This is where our views divert. Health insurance coverage for birth control services should not be a federal mandate under the current system. It's an issue that should be left to the discretion of the insurance provider where free market forces can take reign.

    I agree with your overall point that the Catholic Church needs to conform to secular health care laws or get out of the heath care business. I just don't agree with the law.

  13. #33
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    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;4364921]When a Church steps into the arena of providing health care and other none religious services they are no longer simply in the faith business.[/QUOTE]

    This.

    I would be considered "very religious" by most people, but I don't want to hear any complaints about the gov't as long as you're taking money from it. Even the tax exempt status -- if the gov't is "forcing" you to do something you don't agree with, validate your faith by forfeiting the status and dealing with the consequences, then tell me why you shouldn't have to follow their policies . . .

  14. #34
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    [QUOTE=chiefst2000;4364946]If a religious institution is kind enough to provide health insurance to its employees why would they not have the right to determine what the coverage should entail.[/QUOTE]

    Like in every industry, there are certain standards that must be set and conformed to. In this case, the standard has been set whether you agree with it or not.

  15. #35
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    [QUOTE=OCCH;4364951]This.

    I would be considered "very religious" by most people, but I don't want to hear any complaints about the gov't as long as you're taking money from it. Even the tax exempt status -- if the gov't is "forcing" you to do something you don't agree with, validate your faith by forfeiting the status and dealing with the consequences, then tell me why you shouldn't have to follow their policies . . .[/QUOTE]

    Still confused here. Are you assuming that this particular law only applies to religious institutions that recieve money from the Federal Government? That would be factually incorrect. Maybe you are saying that because a Religious ORG is by definition a tax exempt entity that it should bow to any and all regulations set forth by the Federal Government even when those regulations conflict with their religious beliefs or face loss of its tax exempt status? That seems like a scary and tyrannical proposal. Not something I would support. Finally are you arguing that if these charitable institutions would simply give up their tax exempt status then this particular government regulation would not apply? That statement would also be factually incorrect. Please explain.

  16. #36
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    [QUOTE=OCCH;4364951]This.

    I would be considered "very religious" by most people, but I don't want to hear any complaints about the gov't as long as you're taking money from it. Even the tax exempt status -- if the gov't is "forcing" you to do something you don't agree with, validate your faith by forfeiting the status and dealing with the consequences, then tell me why you shouldn't have to follow their policies . . .[/QUOTE]


    Perhaps the Church should not be in the education business either. Interesting, because the Church has been in both health care and education long before there was even a United States. Or a New World for that matter.
    THe gov is, in fact, forcing a religion to do something that is against dogma - provide birth control and abortions. Want birth control - it's cheap, get a smaller TV, cut back on the booze, don't have intercourse.

    I recall my father telling me about a situation in NYC in the 1950s. I was alive but not into this stuff. NYC put pressure on the Catholic schools relative to busing and other things provided. It got real nasty on the part of the politicians. The Cardinal at the time, I believe Cardinal Spellman, said, "Fine, I'm ordering every Catholic school in NYC closed. You now have 500,000 extra students. Deal with it". Guess what happened. That could happen again. That's unfunded money folks.

  17. #37
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    [QUOTE=parafly;4364948]
    I agree with your overall point that the Catholic Church needs to conform to secular health care laws or get out of the heath care business. I just don't agree with the law.[/QUOTE]

    If it ever came to that there would be a HUGE void in our health care system. Do you know how many of our hospitals are faith based in this country? They are private businesses.

    You don't see the problem with enacting laws that would create a huge void in our system? Why is the government giving waivers to every union and dem leaning business for Obamacare but they can't give a waiver to Catholic organizations for this? Hypocrisy at its finest.

  18. #38
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    [QUOTE=parafly;4364954]Like in every industry, there are certain standards that must be set and conformed to. In this case, the standard has been set whether you agree with it or not.[/QUOTE]

    So your position is that because Nancy Pelosi added a requirement in to a 2000+ page Obamacare bill that no one could have possibly read before a vote was crammed down our throats that the case is closed and the people should suck it up and move on? That thought process seems odd.

    I will explain the basics of this issue in a nut shell before we continue in this discussion. Before Obamacare, the individual States all had a set of basic minimum requirements for healthcare plans. This was a NECESSARY regulation because without a basic minimum requirement, insurance companies could have easily misled consumers and taken advantage of them due to the long and complex sets of terms that come with insurance coverage. For example a company could have written in to their contract that if the insured get ill the company has the right not to renew their coverage during the yearly renewal process. That would be counter intuitive to the insured party. The basic premise of insurance is to get coverage when you are sick. Most States regulate insurance plans to force them to at minimum provide services they promise and prevent them from gaming the system. In New York and New Jersey for example any person that has been continuously covered for the previous year can not be denied renewal or even coverage from another insurance co. Those are State regulations required of any insurance Co looking to do business in those States. Obamacare nationalizes these regulations and mandates and steps them up a few notches. One of the provisions of Obamacare is that virtually all womens health services must be covered in full without copays or deductibles. From mamograms to birth control pills to OBGYN visits. All covered in full without copays or deductibles. For me personally this requirement confuses me. Why only womens services? Why shouldn't mens preventive care be free and without copays or deductibles? As a matter of choice why shouldn't a consumer be able to choose what services they want and how much coverage or copay's or deductibles they want then purchase a plan accordingly? It makes little sense and there is no logical justification.

  19. #39
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    [QUOTE=chiefst2000;4364981]One of the provisions of Obamacare is that virtually all womens health services must be covered in full without copays or deductibles. From mamograms to birth control pills to OBGYN visits. All covered in full without copays or deductibles. For me personally this requirement confuses me. Why only womens services? Why shouldn't mens preventive care be free and without copays or deductibles?.[/QUOTE]

    Couldn't this be challenged/overturned due to sexual discrimination then?

  20. #40
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    [QUOTE=Trades;4364985]Couldn't this be challenged/overturned due to sexual discrimination then?[/QUOTE]

    It could. These are strange laws being pushed by agenda driven politicians. another requirement is that family health coverage be extended to children up to age of 26. There is no compelling reason to regulate such a thing. In private plans you can choose to include that rider and pay an additional fee for the coverage. The new requirement is that everyone must buy a plan with that additional coverage regardless if they want or need it. This is a classic government overreach. Essentially everyone's premiums go up and their choice is reduced by these overreaches. Now imagine what the libs will say. They will say that anyone that disagrees with the requirement that women's preventative care carry NO COPAY OR DEDUCTIBLE is against women. I have 2 daughters and a wife. For me the regulation is a benefit. Thats not the point. The point is that this type of thing should not be mandated by the government. People should be able to choose the type of coverage they want. I may like a high co-pay and deductable plan if I believe that the lower cost of such a plan is more palatable for me. It's my choice. This overreach takes that choice out of the equation.

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