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Thread: Photo ID's

  1. #61
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    [QUOTE=piney;4396467]so I have to answer for everyone? I must defend all positions even if I don't subscribe to them or mention them? [/QUOTE]

    That simply IS the primary legal argument against Voter ID Checks.

    Support it, don't support it. But that is the case at hand.

    Now, if thats not why you're against it, why are you against it then?

    "It won't do anything" is the only argument I've seen from you thus far.....if so, ok, you can safely be ignored going forward, as thats laugahble on it's face.

    What it "will do" is check that each voter is who they claim. Something not being done now. You may not support that, and thats your right, but ti will do that.

    As for the rest. :zzz:

  2. #62
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    [QUOTE=Warfish;4396479]That simply IS the primary legal argument against Voter ID Checks.

    Support it, don't support it. But that is the case at hand.

    Now, if thats not why you're against it, why are you against it then?

    "It won't do anything" is the only argument I've seen from you thus far.....if so, ok, you can safely be ignored going forward, as thats laugahble on it's face.

    What it "will do" is check that each voter is who they claim. Something not being done now. You may not support that, and thats your right, but ti will do that.

    As for the rest. :zzz:[/QUOTE]

    then ignore me on this, because I am a pragmatist, and pragmatically, our election issues will not be solved by a photo ID where it seems our only problem is that voter fraud at the booth is apparently so rampant and countless people go in a vote twice, or vote in other peoples names.




    also I am very upset that my "liberal Frankenstein" line didn't even induce a chuckle.

  3. #63
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    [QUOTE=piney;4396485]then ignore me on this, because I am a pragmatist, and pragmatically, our election issues will not be solved by a photo ID where it seems our only problem is that voter fraud at the booth is apparently so rampant and countless people go in a vote twice, or vote in other peoples names.[/QUOTE]

    [U]Today:[/U] No ID Checks, i.e. the identity of voters is not verified.

    [U]My Preference:[/U] ID Checks, so the identity of voters IS verfied.

    The argument against it (by the majority making it, and legally speaking) is that it is form of supression of minority voters.

    I have more faith in our minorities than that, and I do not agree it's a burden of any kind.

    Anything beyond that is a clouding of the issue.

    [QUOTE=piney;4396478]I wouldn't oppose photo ID at the voter booth if it came to pass[/QUOTE]

    /facepalm

  4. #64
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    [QUOTE=Warfish;4396491]



    /facepalm[/QUOTE]




    I've been saying that all along. Just voicing why I don't think it would make a difference and areas of contention that could be a problem. You have just turned my argument into something else.

    Like I said. I would love To test it locally. See if voter turnout goes down. Push people to get the ID. If it works then go large scale with it.


    To ignore any issues that could come up with the ID or that many Problems won't be addressed by it seems silly to me.

  5. #65
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    [QUOTE=piney;4396450]you've been strong-armed into not reporting voter fraud?????


    I mean, there is a f-ing iPhone app to report voter fraud......but you were physically attacked for reporting it to the authorities?

    if something doesn't pass the smell test, it is this right here.[/QUOTE]

    I'll PM you your poll assignment as soon as I iron out the details.

    Get ready to learn how little you know.

    There's a reason there's a saying that goes "You can't fight city hall". You're about to find out where it came from.

  6. #66
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    [QUOTE=piney;4396478]I really don't have a problem with it, but everyone has been creating my argument for me.


    here is my argument:


    I don't think Voter Photo ID will really stop voter fraud that truly does happen, because most reports of fraud happen outside the polling booth. Ballot stuffing and other forms of electoral fraud would be unaffected.[/QUOTE]

    There is no logical way to explain how voter ID requirements won't improve voter ID fraud. Ballot stuffing and other forms are exactly that: other forms that have nothing to do with this specific case. Seatbelts don't prevent drunk driving. Doesn't mean we shouldn't have them.

    [QUOTE=piney;4396478]
    I don't think it would have any effect on voter registration fraud.[/QUOTE]

    Again, separate issue. Doesn't mean this one shouldn't be addressed.

    [QUOTE=piney;4396478]
    I don't think the cost associated with giving everyone a free ID would be well spent.[/QUOTE]

    Some folks are fine with a corrupted system, I guess. :huh:

    [QUOTE=piney;4396478]
    The only thing an ID would do is possibly suppress voting, now what that number would be.[/QUOTE]

    Yes. It would suppress illegal votes. The harm in that is?

    [QUOTE=piney;4396478]
    How would the expiration work? If I had to pay for it what would it cost? When do I have to renew it? Where do I go to do that?[/QUOTE]

    Details easily worked out, and worth to fix a piece of the system that is clearly broken.

    [QUOTE=piney;4396478]
    having said all that, I wouldn't oppose photo ID at the voter booth if it came to pass, I just don't think it is a cure for the actual election shenanigans that really happen in this country.[/QUOTE]

    No one claims it is a cure-all. It's one patch of many that needs to occur.

  7. #67
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    I support the requirement of photo identification during the voting process, but it has to come with a stipulation that acceptable identification be available free of charge. I fundamentally disagree with a de facto poll tax.

    With that said, the issue of voter fraud was heavily and thoroughly investigated by the Bush administration. The studies found that the chances of uncovering a case of voter fraud are less than the chances of getting struck by lightning.

    I am all for making the voting process as legitimate as possible, but Republicans/conservatives tend to make a mountain out of a molehill when it comes to this issue.

  8. #68
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    [QUOTE]NAACP Asks UN to Judge America's Voter ID Laws

    UN rights council delves into US voter I.D. laws

    By Eric Shawn

    Published March 14, 2012

    | FoxNews.com

    The controversy over requiring voters to provide photo IDs has reached the world stage.

    The United Nations Human Rights Council is investigating the issue of American election laws at its gathering on minority rights in Geneva, Switzerland.. This, despite the fact that some members of the council have only in the past several years allowed women to vote, and one member, Saudi Arabia, still bars women from the voting booth completely.

    Officials from the NAACP are presenting their case against U.S. voter ID laws, arguing to the international diplomats that the requirements disenfranchise voters and suppress the minority vote.

    Eight states have passed voter ID laws in the past year, voter ID proposals are pending in 32 states and the Obama administration has recently moved to block South Carolina and Texas from enacting their voter ID measures.

    "This really is a tactic that undercuts the growth of your democracy," said Hillary Shelton, the NAACP's senior vice president for advocacy, about voter photo ID requirements.

    In a Fox News interview prior to his trip, Shelton said the message from the NAACP delegation to the Human Rights Council is that the photo ID law "undercuts the integrity of our government, if you allow it to happen. It's trickery, it's a sleight-of-hand. We're seeing it happen here and we don't want it to happen to you, and we are utilizing the U.N. as a tool to make sure that we are able to share that with those countries all over the world."

    The United Nations has no legal jurisdiction over the American electoral system, which Shelton acknowledges. Asked whether he thinks that the U.N. should be involved in domestic American laws, he answered, "No, not specifically. The U.N. should certainly be involved in sharing a best practice for the world."

    "We're the greatest country on the face of the earth, but we can be better still," he said.

    The NAACP had scheduled two American citizens to present their claims at the U.N. panel who, the group says, worry they will be disenfranchised by the requirement to present a photo ID to vote. The civil rights group says one, Kemba Smith Pradia, was convicted of a drug-related offense and is concerned that if she moves back to Virginia from the Midwest, state law will block her voting because of her record, even though she was granted clemency by President Bill Clinton.

    A second American, Austin Alex, is a Texas Christian University student. The NAACP says he is worried that he will be barred from voting because he only holds an out-of-state driver's license and a non-government student ID, not a Texas issued photo ID.

    But supporters of photo ID requirements argue that states provide such identifications for free, and in some cases, voters can cast provisional or absentee ballots that do not even require a photo ID. The NAACP disputes those claims.

    In 2008, the United States Supreme Court upheld the voter photo ID law enacted in Indiana.

    The U.N. Human Rights Council members include communist China and Cuba. In addition, several Arab nations are on the council that have only granted the right to vote to women in recent years, such as Kuwait in 2005 and Qatar in 2003. Women in the Republic of Moldova have had the right to vote for less than 20 years.

    Council member Saudi Arabia announced six months ago that women will be granted the right to vote, but that change does not go into effect until 2015.

    "The idea that this is a human rights abuse is ridiculous," said Hans von Spakovsky, a voter fraud expert and senior legal fellow at the conservative Heritage Foundation, in Washington, D.C.

    "The UN allowing this to take place under their roof makes them, unfortunately, complicit in what really is a publicity stunt by the NAACP, and I think it wastes their time, when they should be going after real and sustained human rights abuses like the things going on in horrible places, like North Korea."

    Spakovsky, who supports voter photo ID laws, says it is a hypocritical and meaningless waste of time to present a case against American electoral laws at the UN forum.

    "I think the leadership of the NAACP is, quite frankly, doing a disservice to American citizens and the democracy that we have here, by going abroad to the Human Rights Council, which is filled with dictatorships and other countries that actually and really abuse human rights."

    He called the council's weighing of U.S. laws "an insult to the United States that the NAACP thinks we should be getting advice from those kinds of countries, which are not democracies, on how to administer elections in this country.

    But Shelton argues that the NAACP's presence at the Geneva conference can teach other nations how to improve their electoral systems.

    "We can learn a lot from those who haven't gone through as much as we have," he said.

    "Everyone has a different struggle, but there's lessons to learn from whoever we come across ... but there's also some things I think we can still help teach the rest of the world."

    Read more: [url]http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/03/14/un-delves-into-us-voter-id-laws/#ixzz1p7AxwVMf[/url][/QUOTE]

    ;)

  9. #69
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    [QUOTE=piney;4396478]I really don't have a problem with it, but everyone has been creating my argument for me.


    here is my argument:


    I don't think Voter Photo ID will really stop voter fraud that truly does happen, because most reports of fraud happen outside the polling booth. Ballot stuffing and other forms of electoral fraud would be unaffected.

    I don't think it would have any effect on voter registration fraud.

    I don't think the cost associated with giving everyone a free ID would be well spent.

    The only thing an ID would do is possibly suppress voting, now what that number would be.

    How would the expiration work? If I had to pay for it what would it cost? When do I have to renew it? Where do I go to do that?

    having said all that, I wouldn't oppose photo ID at the voter booth if it came to pass, I just don't think it is a cure for the actual election shenanigans that really happen in this country.[/QUOTE]

    If you can't don't have a picture ID of some kind I'm betting you were paid to vote and brought to the voting booth. You can't function legally day to day in this society without a picture ID.

    You can't cash a government check without a picture ID.

  10. #70
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    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;4396776]If you can't don't have a picture ID of some kind I'm betting you were paid to vote and brought to the voting booth. You can't function legally day to day in this society without a picture ID.

    You can't cash a government check without a picture ID.[/QUOTE]

    Can't open a bank account.

    Can't drive a vehicle.

    Can't own property or rent property (legally).

    Can't get credit of any kind.

    Can't buy smokes, beer or a number of other products.

    Can't use any Govt. services.

    Etc.

    Frankly, if there are people who don't have ID, it is in societies best interests to push them to get one, not to protect their right to vote without proving who they are.

    If they can get to the polls to vote, they can get to the DMV to obtain a State ID.

    Unless, of course, they can't get the ID for other reasons.;)

  11. #71
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    [QUOTE=Warfish;4396840]Can't open a bank account.

    Can't drive a vehicle.

    Can't own property or rent property (legally).

    Can't get credit of any kind.

    Can't buy smokes, beer or a number of other products.

    Can't use any Govt. services.

    Etc.

    Frankly, if there are people who don't have ID, it is in societies best interests to push them to get one, not to protect their right to vote without proving who they are.

    If they can get to the polls to vote, they can get to the DMV to obtain a State ID.

    Unless, of course, they can't get the ID for other reasons.;)[/QUOTE]

    Isn't Piney right when he supposes that the majority of voter fraud occurs away from the voting booth?

    For example, Acepepe cited the case where LBJ stole a senate election from some guy named Coke (snicker). Had to do with a bunch of absentee ballots and sh*t.

    Would a voter ID law have prevented that?

  12. #72
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    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan;4396847]Isn't Piney right when he supposes that the majority of voter fraud occurs away from the voting booth?

    For example, Acepepe cited the case where LBJ stole a senate election from some guy named Coke (snicker). Had to do with a bunch of absentee ballots and sh*t.

    Would a voter ID law have prevented that?[/QUOTE]

    This argument is so stupid.

    Firearms account for 67% of murders. Knives for 13%. Should knife murders be ignored by law because it wouldn't have an affect on the number of gun murders? :huh:

  13. #73
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    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan;4396847]Isn't Piney right when he supposes that the majority of voter fraud occurs away from the voting booth?[/quote]

    I don't know for sure one way or another.

    But honestly PK, it's irrelevant to THIS topic.

    If there is a policy-change availabel to fix those other types of frauds, I'm all over it, and we can and should discuss those in their own threads, with their own discussions.

    Someone said it right earlier, and I'll repeat it Comedy-Version:

    Just because seatbelts don't stop drunk driving, doesn't mean we shouldn't have seatbelts in our cars.

    Just because we have voter fruad with say, voting machines, doesn;t mean we should not verify the ID's of voters about to vote.

    It means we should work on Drunk Driving and Votign Machines TOO.

    Multitasking ftw.

  14. #74
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    Actually, the NAACP and the UN are perfect for each other. Two useless Orgs that have have outlived their usefulness. Wonder what this crack UN committee will announce in their finding?:rolleyes:

  15. #75
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    [QUOTE=Warfish;4396894]I don't know for sure one way or another.

    But honestly PK, it's irrelevant to THIS topic. [/QUOTE]

    It sort of is when voter fraud is the reason politicians are citing to make the law in the first place.

    [QUOTE]If there is a policy-change availabel to fix those other types of frauds, I'm all over it, and we can and should discuss those in their own threads, with their own discussions.[/QUOTE]

    Actually our elected officials who are desperately worried about voter fraud should be discussing it...IF they are actually serious about preventing voter fraud.

    When they DON'T discuss legitimate ways to curb the most serious of voter fraud, they give credence to the accusations being thrown against them.


    I have an idea. Wanna REALLY stop voter fraud?

    Make absentee ballots illegal.



    BTW...I have no problem with ID laws as I have previously stated. If those state issued ID's can be obtained at no cost.

  16. #76
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    [QUOTE=JetPotato;4396876]This argument is so stupid.

    Firearms account for 67% of murders. Knives for 13%. Should knife murders be ignored by law because it wouldn't have an affect on the number of gun murders? :huh:[/QUOTE]

    not a great analogy, more like what you guys are saying is that we should register all knife owners because people kill people with knives.

    and PK and I say, yeah, but that isn't the only weapon people use in murder cases. You aren't really going to curb violent crime with that law. Then you guys yell at us about how that should be in a different thread.

  17. #77
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    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;4396776]If you can't don't have a picture ID of some kind I'm betting you were paid to vote and brought to the voting booth. You can't function legally day to day in this society without a picture ID.

    You can't cash a government check without a picture ID.[/QUOTE]

    ah, so we should have voting laws reflect what you bet the truth is. Cool.

  18. #78
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    [QUOTE=JetPotato;4396523]There is no logical way to explain how voter ID requirements won't improve voter ID fraud. Ballot stuffing and other forms are exactly that: other forms that have nothing to do with this specific case. Seatbelts don't prevent drunk driving. Doesn't mean we shouldn't have them.[/QUOTE]

    but what you are telling me is how important it is to focus on a voter ID card to deal with something that comprises about .003 percent of voter/electoral/registration fraud.

    [QUOTE]Again, separate issue. Doesn't mean this one shouldn't be addressed.[/QUOTE]

    To me it isn't, because we are going to invest taxpayer money into something that will have a very minimal effect in the real world.

    [QUOTE]
    Some folks are fine with a corrupted system, I guess. :huh:[/QUOTE]

    yeah, that is what I'm all for.

    [QUOTE]
    Yes. It would suppress illegal votes. The harm in that is?[/QUOTE]

    There are plenty of studies that say it could have some effect on minority and elderly voters who aren't illegally voting. To ignore that is to be intellectually dishonest. The idea would be a system that verifies and improves voter turnout, not lowers it.

    [QUOTE]
    Details easily worked out, and worth to fix a piece of the system that is clearly broken.[/QUOTE]

    but a small piece, I want the entire enchilada, not just one tortilla chip.

    [QUOTE]
    No one claims it is a cure-all. It's one patch of many that needs to occur.[/QUOTE]

    that isn't how it gets spun everyday by people who support it, this is the cure-all.

    Again, I don't have a huge problem with voter ID, but it is much more involved than anyone who supports it seems to understand, where do we draw the line at what ID is acceptable, what do we provide to those who don't have ID, what is the expiration of the ID, can I use any photo ID, does that open it up to forgery (you know, since voter fraud is so rampant, then making fraudulent IDs will also be rampant), the list goes on and on.

    Just saying, hey people, get an ID, and pay us for it too, isn't exactly kosher.

    again, lets try it out, pick a few districts, see how it affects voter turn out, does it affect vote results, how easy is it to get an ID if you don't have one, what IDs are acceptable, what aren't. Some basic beta testing seem logical.

  19. #79
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    [QUOTE=Warfish;4396840]Can't open a bank account.

    Can't get credit of any kind.

    Can't buy smokes, beer or a number of other products.[/QUOTE]

    None of these are true. I have personally done all of them without photo id.

    [QUOTE]Can't drive a vehicle.[/QUOTE]

    True

    [QUOTE]Can't own property or rent property (legally).[/QUOTE]

    Possibly, but I am not entirely sure. If you show up to an apartment complex with a birth certificate (long form of course :D), a social security card, proof of employment, and three months security deposit, will they turn you down due to lack of photo id?

    [QUOTE]Can't use any Govt. services.[/QUOTE]

    What government services specifically? Last time I checked, you don't need a photo id to mail a letter or file a police report.

    [QUOTE]Frankly, if there are people who don't have ID, it is in societies best interests to push them to get one.[/QUOTE]

    Agreed, but "freedom from id possession" is actually a very conservative principle.

  20. #80
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    [QUOTE=parafly;4397148]None of these are true. I have personally done all of them without photo id.[/QUOTE]

    When did you open a bank account without ID and where?

    Prior to 2001? Probably...

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