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Thread: Photo ID's

  1. #21
    meh



    I think I would need to see actual evidence of widespread voter fraud in order to fully support the cost (taxpayer or individual) and time used to give everyone a free ID card.

    Not that I would oppose a photo ID requirement it if it came to pass, even though it is more of a political tool than anything else.


    Voter fraud, real voter fraud, is so uncommon, and most instances of suspected voter fraud have been thrown out or proven false that it just doesn't make sense.

    Voter fraud is sort of like alligators living in the sewers, a bit of an urban myth.
    Last edited by piney; 03-14-2012 at 12:47 AM.

  2. #22
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    The only plausible explanation I can think of is if they're poor and don't own a vehicle, so they don't get their driver's license, and are ignorant of other ways to get any other photo id.

  3. #23
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    [QUOTE=piney;4395970]meh



    I think I would need to see actual evidence of widespread voter fraud in order to fully support the cost (taxpayer or individual) and time used to give everyone a free ID card.

    Not that I would oppose a photo ID requirement it if it came to pass, even though it is more of a political tool than anything else.


    Voter fraud, real voter fraud, is so uncommon, and most instances of suspected voter fraud have been thrown out or proven false that it just doesn't make sense.

    Voter fraud is sort of like alligators living in the sewers, a bit of an urban myth.[/QUOTE]

    Have any proof of that or just guessing?

    I've said this multiple times on this site. I've worked campaigns and at polling places for over 20 years. Have family at the Board of Elections.

    Voter fraud is not only not a myth, it is RAMPANT. It changes outcomes. No doubt about it. You may not want to believe it, but I've witnessed it. It's real. Worst part about it, is poll workers can watch it happen, but have no power to do anything about it. It's painful watching, knowing your vote and the vote of other honest people are being cancelled out by an illegal immigrant or repeat voter on behalf of an non-existant or dead person. If you even try to ask for ID, you can get [I]yourself[/I] in trouble.

    There's simply no reason to not have this law, other than to allow fraud to continue. Any other excuse is nothing but pure BS.
    Last edited by JetPotato; 03-14-2012 at 07:50 AM.

  4. #24
    [QUOTE=piney;4395970]I think I would need to see actual evidence of widespread voter fraud in order to fully support the cost (taxpayer or individual) and time used to give everyone a free ID card.[/quote]

    Is the reverse also appropriate?

    Can we request to see widespread proof of inabillity to aquire any form of state issued ID? Not just that they do not have one today, but proof they could not reasonable obtain one knowing the Law was in place?

    [QUOTE]Not that I would oppose a photo ID requirement it if it came to pass, even though it is more of a political tool than anything else.[/QUOTE]

    I see as it as very basic. To vote, you must be registered. To prove you are the person who registered (i.e. that you are who you claim), simply show an ID, like you have to do for many many other daily things in our country and culture.

    Basic, simply and easy.

    [quote]Voter fraud is sort of like alligators living in the sewers, a bit of an urban myth.[/QUOTE]

    I only laugh, because I think the exact same thing about the supposed masses of possibel voters who not only have no form of Identification, but apparently lack any abillity to aquire any form of identification......but we're to take it they're all rightful, legal voters whose rights to vote trump basic checks and balances in out voting system.

    How many people do you know who don't have any identification, and could not get one if they had to?

  5. #25
    [QUOTE=JetPotato;4396032]Have any proof of that or just guessing?

    I've said this multiple times on this site. I've worked campaigns and at polling places for over 20 years. Have family at the Board of Elections.

    Voter fraud is not only not a myth, it is RAMPANT. It changes outcomes. No doubt about it. You may not want to believe it, but I've witnessed it. It's real. Worst part about it, is poll workers can watch it happen, but have no power to do anything about it. It's painful watching, knowing your vote and the vote of other honest people are being cancelled out by an illegal immigrant or repeat voter on behalf of an non-existant or dead person. If you even try to ask for ID, you can get [I]yourself[/I] in trouble.

    There's simply no reason to not have this law, other than to allow fraud to continue. Any other excuse is nothing but pure BS.[/QUOTE].




    There is simply no evidence that backs this up.


    Saying, "I know. I've seen people. People I know have seen it.". Goes against every study done on the subject. Sorry if I'll believe reputable studies over a belligerent JI poster

  6. #26
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    [QUOTE=JetPotato;4396032]It changes outcomes.[/QUOTE]

    Damn. That's crazy. In a democratic nation, that should not be happening.

    Is there a list somewhere of people sitting in office or who have held office illegitimately? That would quite an eye opener! :yes:

  7. #27
    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan;4396289]Damn. That's crazy. In a democratic nation, that should not be happening.

    Is there a list somewhere of people sitting in office or who have held office illegitimately? That would quite an eye opener! :yes:[/QUOTE]

    Kennedy pres. Beat my Johnson TX senate, setting in motion the enslavement ( both sides, those receiving and those forced to pay) of the welfare state we have today. Not only changed the election, changed U.S. history ( Vietnam)
    How Johnson Won Election He'd Lost
    By MARTIN TOLCHIN, Special to The New York Times
    Published: February 11, 1990

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    Print

    A study of Lyndon B. Johnson provides new evidence that the 36th President stole his first election to the United States Senate, in 1948.

    The book, ''Means of Ascent,'' by Robert A. Caro, is the second volume of a projected four-volume study, ''The Years of Lyndon Johnson.'' With a first printing of 250,000 copies, it is to be published on March 15 by Knopf, and excerpts have appeared in The New Yorker.

    Mr. Caro maintains that although ballot fraud was common in the late 1940's in some parts of Texas, the Johnson campaign of 1948 raised it to a new level. Mr. Caro supports his charge with an interview with Luis Salas, an election judge in Jim Wells County who said he acknowledged his role only after all others involved in the theft had died.

    Determined to Win at All Costs

    It has been alleged for years that Johnson captured his Senate seat through fraud, but Mr. Caro goes into great detail to tell how the future President overcame a 20,000-vote deficit to achieve his famous 87-vote victory in the 1948 Democratic runoff primary against a former Governor, Coke Stevenson. A South Texas political boss, George Parr, had manufactured thousands of votes, Mr. Caro found. Johnson died in 1973, Stevenson and Parr in 1975. Mr. Caro says the election showed Johnson's determination to win at all costs as well as his coolness under fire and his ability to select gifted lieutenants, whom he then manipulated.

    Now say something stupid, PK. It's your only defense as of late. CR=PK

  8. #28
    [QUOTE=Warfish;4396222]Is the reverse also appropriate?

    Can we request to see widespread proof of inabillity to aquire any form of state issued ID? Not just that they do not have one today, but proof they could not reasonable obtain one knowing the Law was in place?[/QUOTE]


    it is a bit of a silly comparison, I am asking for documented proof of widespread voter fraud, a crime, something that should be really easy to find and should be documented.

    Your asking for proof of something not easily documented. "Prove it is hard."

    All I can say is what I have read on the subject from different sources all seem to agree on it.

    [QUOTE]Studies show that as many as [B]11 percent of eligible voters do not have government-issued photo ID. That percentage is even higher for seniors, people of color, people with disabilities, low-income voters, and students.[/B] Many citizens find it hard to get government photo IDs, because the underlying documentation like birth certificates (the ID one needs to get ID) is often difficult or expensive to come by. At the same time, [B]voter ID policies are far more costly to implement than many assume.[/B][/QUOTE]

    Voter ID really wouldn't make a difference, voter fraud is not very common, and most instances of reported suspected voter fraud have been mostly dismissed, there have been some local election instances, but very few.

    I think the common wisdom is voter fraud is less likely than getting struck by lightning.

    People lump voter registration fraud in with voter fraud, but they are completely different, and voter registration fraud normally has no effect on an actual election, as is illustrated by the difference in punishment for voter fraud vs voter registration fraud.

    Voter ID wouldn't have any effect of election fraud, tampering with machines, gerrymandering, ballot stuffing, etc, etc, etc.

    To me, it seems, voter ID cards will cost us, the taxpayer a lot of money, and will not have any effect.

    I don't know, to me, photo ID cards are like when children keep a light on to keep the monsters away.

    I would say, lets see it in action on a local level first. See what the effects are, find an area where voter fraud has been proven and try it there.

  9. #29
    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan;4396289]Damn. That's crazy. In a democratic nation, that should not be happening.

    Is there a list somewhere of people sitting in office or who have held office illegitimately? That would quite an eye opener! :yes:[/QUOTE]

    Plumber, there is nothing he can do, there is no recourse if you suspect voter fraud, you just have to sit there, smile, and accept it.

    There is absolutely no one you can report it to, so there will be no evidence of it.

    Our hands are tied, only a photo ID can save the Republic.

  10. #30
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    [QUOTE=piney;4396269].




    There is simply no evidence that backs this up.


    Saying, "I know. I've seen people. People I know have seen it.". Goes against every study done on the subject. Sorry if I'll believe reputable studies over a belligerent JI poster[/QUOTE]

    Reputable studies? What a joke.

    As I stated, these are facts. I challenge you to volunteer this November at your local poll and come back and tell me otherwise.

    No study will be able to accurately quantify it, because as I stated, there is nothing that can be currently done about voter fraud in many states. In NY, if I watch it happen, I can do nothing about it, so how can it possibly be documented?

    If voter fraud truly isn't a problem in your mind, then there simply shouldn't be a problem implementing free voter photo IDs. What would possibly be the objection?

  11. #31
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    [QUOTE=piney;4396327]it is a bit of a silly comparison, I am asking for documented proof of widespread voter fraud, a crime, something that should be really easy to find and should be documented.

    Your asking for proof of something not easily documented. "Prove it is hard."

    All I can say is what I have read on the subject from different sources all seem to agree on it. .[/QUOTE]

    Except this flies in the face of logic, because under current laws, voter fraud can and does happen and it is IMPOSSIBLE to document it legally.

    [QUOTE=piney;4396327]
    Voter ID really wouldn't make a difference, voter fraud is not very common, and most instances of reported suspected voter fraud have been mostly dismissed, there have been some local election instances, but very few.

    I think the common wisdom is voter fraud is less likely than getting struck by lightning.

    People lump voter registration fraud in with voter fraud, but they are completely different, and voter registration fraud normally has no effect on an actual election, as is illustrated by the difference in punishment for voter fraud vs voter registration fraud.

    Voter ID wouldn't have any effect of election fraud, tampering with machines, gerrymandering, ballot stuffing, etc, etc, etc.

    To me, it seems, voter ID cards will cost us, the taxpayer a lot of money, and will not have any effect.

    I don't know, to me, photo ID cards are like when children keep a light on to keep the monsters away.

    I would say, lets see it in action on a local level first. See what the effects are, find an area where voter fraud has been proven and try it there.[/QUOTE]

    Your entire theory is based in 100% speculation.

    There is no downside. Only upside.

    Even if your wrong-headed assumptions were even close, and there is only ONE fraudulent vote this upcoming November, it means that one legitimate voter in this country has be denied a say in the democratic process.

    If you don't see that as worth fixing, then why even vote yourself? You clearly don't value the process at all.

  12. #32
    [QUOTE=piney;4395970]meh



    I think I would need to see actual evidence of widespread voter fraud in order to fully support the cost (taxpayer or individual) and time used to give everyone a free ID card.

    Not that I would oppose a photo ID requirement it if it came to pass, even though it is more of a political tool than anything else.


    Voter fraud, real voter fraud, is so uncommon, and most instances of suspected voter fraud have been thrown out or proven false that it just doesn't make sense.

    Voter fraud is sort of like alligators living in the sewers, a bit of an urban myth.[/QUOTE]

    For the most part I agree. With the exception of close elections voter fraud and fraud in counting and reporting votes rarely impacts elections.

  13. #33
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    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;4396361]For the most part I agree. With the exception of close elections voter fraud and fraud in counting and reporting votes rarely impacts elections.[/QUOTE]

    Rarely? So the occasional election here and there is fine?

    I find this so absurd.

    Let me ask you all... what possible motivation would one have for "making up" the witness of voter fraud? :rolleyes:

    Excuse me if that makes me a little upset. Being called a liar is one thing. Being called a liar on something that I've seen and upsets me so much to my core takes it to another level.

  14. #34
    [QUOTE=JetPotato;4396341]Reputable studies? What a joke.

    As I stated, these are facts. I challenge you to volunteer this November at your local poll and come back and tell me otherwise.

    No study will be able to accurately quantify it, because as I stated, there is nothing that can be currently done about voter fraud in many states. In NY, if I watch it happen, I can do nothing about it, so how can it possibly be documented?

    If voter fraud truly isn't a problem in your mind, then there simply shouldn't be a problem implementing free voter photo IDs. What would possibly be the objection?[/QUOTE]

    suspected voter fraud should be reported to your states dept of state. You can contact your state attorney general office, you can actually take photos at the location where you think fraud is occurring, etc etc.

    cost would be my main concern for something that only exists to make people feel good.

    Look, I really don't care, if tomorrow we had to produce an ID I wouldn't be outrages. It isn't that important to me.

    A Voter ID wouldn't really help anything, and if it were free then the ease to obtain one would sort of cancel out the power of the ID at the voting location.

    Voter fraud like ballot stuffing wouldn't be affected, and ballot stuffing has happened much more than a guy walking into a place and voting under someone else's name.

  15. #35
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    [QUOTE=acepepe;4396324]Now say something stupid, PK.[/QUOTE]

    OK.

    I'm not surprised that voter fraud occurred in Texas. That state has a dearth of honest folks.

  16. #36
    [QUOTE=JetPotato;4396368]Rarely? So the occasional election here and there is fine?

    I find this so absurd.

    Let me ask you all... what possible motivation would one have for "making up" the witness of voter fraud? :rolleyes:

    Excuse me if that makes me a little upset. Being called a liar is one thing. Being called a liar on something that I've seen and upsets me so much to my core takes it to another level.[/QUOTE]

    because what you say is unverifiable.

    using your logic I would also have to believe everyone who tells me they saw a UFO because even though evidence states the contrary, I might be calling them a liar.

    If you say you saw it you should have reported it. Saying you have no recourse when you witness voter fraud is another incorrect assumption.

    I would expect someone who volunteered at a polling place to know at least that.

  17. #37
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    [QUOTE=piney;4396374]suspected voter fraud should be reported to your states dept of state. You can contact your state attorney general office, you can actually [B]take photos at the location where you think fraud is occurring[/B], etc etc. [/QUOTE]

    Um, no. You can't. Not sure what you think you could prove that way anyway.

    [QUOTE=piney;4396374]
    cost would be my main concern for something that only exists to make people feel good. [/QUOTE]

    It isn't about feeling good. It's about the integrity of our entire system.

    [QUOTE=piney;4396374]
    Voter fraud like ballot stuffing wouldn't be affected, and ballot stuffing has happened much more than a guy walking into a place and voting under someone else's name.[/QUOTE]

    Have stats to back that up? So one time of fraud excuses another?

    Mind boggling.

  18. #38
    [QUOTE=piney;4396327]it is a bit of a silly comparison, I am asking for documented proof of widespread voter fraud, a crime, something that should be really easy to find and should be documented.[/quote]

    If there is no ID check at the time of the vote, how is voter fraud "easily documented"?


    Sounds like a Catch-22 to me.

    [QUOTE]Your asking for proof of something not easily documented. "Prove it is hard."[/QUOTE]

    Yes. The burden in this issue should be on those claiming they cannot meet a basic requirement of identifying themselves, and establishing they posess the right to vote in the first place.

    [QUOTE]I think the common wisdom is voter fraud is less likely than getting struck by lightning.[/QUOTE]

    Not common where I sit.

    From where I sit I see one side protecting a system that does not meet a basic sniff test of accountabillity.

    An ID check at the voting both is as basic and fundamental a rule as I could image. If I were crafting any kind of Democartioc system, proof of identity at the time of vote would almost literally be step #1 in the voting process.

    Hell, I'd get rid of registration before I'd get rid of ID checks. If it were up to me, everyone with a Social Security Card could vote be default, and simply have to produce it at the time of casting their vote.

  19. #39
    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;4396361]For the most part I agree. With the exception of close elections voter fraud and fraud in counting and reporting votes rarely impacts elections.[/QUOTE]

    that is really my point.


    The kind of real voter fraud that does occasionally occur would not be affected by a photo ID.

    Voter suppression and counting fraud happen outside the confines of the voter booth

  20. #40
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    [QUOTE=piney;4396380]because what you say is unverifiable.

    using your logic I would also have to believe everyone who tells me they saw a UFO because even though evidence states the contrary, I might be calling them a liar.

    If you say you saw it you should have reported it. Saying you have no recourse when you witness voter fraud is another incorrect assumption.

    I would expect someone who volunteered at a polling place to know at least that.[/QUOTE]

    It can be reported, and given what I can report, not much (almost nothing) can be done about it. Believe me, what you think you know is little. Like I said, try it yourself and report back to me the first Wednesday in November.

    Your UFO example is as absurd as it gets. Some guy's report of a UFO has no impact on the real world, and no one cares about it. Voter fraud is plausible, real, and a large amount of people who care about democracy want action.

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