Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 79

Thread: Has anyone ever picked a fight with the Catholic Church and won?

  1. #1
    Banned
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    1,903
    Post Thanks / Like

    Has anyone ever picked a fight with the Catholic Church and won?

    It's a rhetorical question, the answer is no.

    I feel really good about this upcoming election, I think our American dictator will finally be crossing the Rubicon, shortly. I don't care who the challenger is as long as he can fog a mirror, and has a pulse.

    [B][U]Do They Know Who They’re Messing With?[/U][/B]


    During a recent conversation about the HHS anti-conscience mandate, a friend who is neither Catholic nor particularly religious asked the following rhetorical question about the Obama administration:

    Do these people know who they’re messing with?

    Her point, of course, was that the Church has spent nearly two millennia crushing attempts by secular rulers to dictate the way it carries out its charitable ministries. Commanding Catholic hospitals to fund sterilizations, contraceptives, and abortifacients isn’t like twisting the arm of some roundheel congressman. It’s going to take more than the usual Chitown chicanery to cow a venerable and well-funded organization that has brought more than one emperor to his knees.

    The Church’s charitable work has been seen as a threat to the power of the state as far back as the reign of Julian the Apostate. Julian was the Roman Emperor who tried to drag his subjects back to the crumbling altars of the old state gods a half a century after his uncle, Constantine I, had legitimized Christianity by converting to the new faith. Julian’s project didn’t go well, and he complained in a letter to one of his high priests that the effort was failing because “the impious Galileans support not only their own poor but ours as well.” What’s an Emperor to do with opponents whose tactics include such dirty tricks as lending aid and comfort to all who need it, including people with religious and political views that differ from their own?

    Julian tried to counter the effect of such “impious” tactics by restructuring the imperial administration in such a way that it could compete with the “Galileans” in good works and thereby erode the connection in the public consciousness between charity and the Church. In a move that eerily echoes the progressive vernacular of our own age, Julian issued the Tolerance Edict of 362. The purpose of this decree, like calls for tolerance from modern liberals, was precisely the opposite of its ostensible intent. It re-privileged the old pagan cults, rescinded religious freedoms recognized by Constantine and attempted to sow dissention among Christian ranks by reigniting long-resolved doctrinal controversies.

    The Tolerance Edict and a variety of similar edicts flopped. And, after Julian’s short reign ended, his successors gave up his pagan revival project as a bad job. But the meaning of Julian’s failure has been lost on many subsequent rulers, and Barack Obama is among the slow learners who refuse to heed the lessons of history. The president, like Julian, wishes to “transform” his country into a place in which every aspect of the citizen’s life is connected to and controlled by the state. He wants the federal government to be seen as the ultimate arbiter and provider of the electorate’s needs. Obviously, however, this can’t be managed while large and influential institutions like the Catholic Church and its charitable ministries remain in place.

    And, where health care is concerned, Catholic institutions are definitely a force to be reckoned with. For example, they provide care to one in six patients treated in the United States every year. During 2010, America’s more than 600 Catholic facilities treated well over 100 million patients, including 19 million emergency patients, and 5.5 million inpatients. And much of the care received by these patients was provided at a loss. Of the 5.5 million in-patients treated by these hospitals during 2010, 3.3 million were covered by Medicare or Medicaid, both of which pay less than the amount it costs to provide treatment. Of the 19 million emergency patients treated at Catholic hospitals, a large percentage paid nothing at all.

    So, what happens if the Catholic hospitals simply refuse to abandon their principles and decide to get out of the health care business? This possibility is not as remote as some may believe. Don’t forget what happened in Massachusetts when Catholic charities faced a similar choice relating to adoption. Rather than abandoning their principles they simply stopped offering adoption services. If they take the same course in health care, the effect on our medical delivery system will be disastrous. Not all of the Church’s 600 hospitals would disappear, of course. Some would be bought by large for-profit chains, like HCA. Others would be picked up by big not-for-profit systems. But at least a third would probably go out of business.

    And that third will consist mostly of rural and inner city hospitals that treat the nation’s most vulnerable patients. These institutions will never show a positive bottom line because most of their patients are covered by government insurance or none at all. They are only open at present due to the good graces of the Catholic Church and its members. Once those good graces are withdrawn, there will be no buyers and these hospitals will be forced to shut their doors. Where will their patients go for care? The rural patients will have to travel for hours, in some cases, to access care. And many will die on the way. The inner city patients will go to hopelessly overcrowded safety net hospitals where patients already die in the waiting rooms.

    Would the Church really withdraw from U.S. health care? In a recent letter to all the Catholic bishops of the United States, Cardinal Timothy Dolan wrote, “We have made it clear in no uncertain terms to the government that we are not at peace with its invasive attempt to curtail the religious freedom we cherish as Catholics and Americans. We did not ask for this fight, but we will not run from it.” In the same letter, Cardinal Dolan quotes supportive words from the Pope: “We recall the words of our Holy Father Benedict XVI to our brother bishops on their recent ad limina visit: ‘Of particular concern are certain attempts being made to limit that most cherished of American freedoms, the freedom of religion.’”

    I, like my friend, am not a Catholic. And I am certainly no expert on Church politics. But the Cardinal’s letter to the bishops does not read like a bluff. It is true, of course, that the Church is no longer as powerful as it was in Julian’s day or 700 years later when the Holy Roman Emperor was forced to walk across the Alps and stand barefoot in the snow begging for an audience with Pope Gregory VII. But it is by no means without influence in the modern era, as the conspicuous absence of the Soviet Union attests. If Cardinal Dolan is not Gregory VII, neither is he Bart Stupak. When he writes, “As our ancestors did with previous threats, we will tirelessly defend the timeless and enduring truth of religious freedom,” I think he means it.

    Nonetheless, it isn’t at all clear that Obama, his cadre of Chicago sycophants, and their accomplices in the media do understand “who they’re messing with.” If they think the absurd Sandra Fluke and their phony crusade against a fictional “war on women” will make the very real issue of religious liberty go away, they are even dumber than their policies suggest. In fact, it could mean they are so clueless that it may indeed be possible to beat them in November — even with Mitt Romney as the GOP presidential nominee.

    David Catron is a health care finance professional who has spent more than twenty years working for and advising hospitals and medical practices. He blogs at Health Care BS.

    [url]http://catholicexchange.com/obama-the-apostate/[/url]

  2. #2
    All League
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    East of the Jordan, West of the Rock of Gibraltar
    Posts
    4,764
    Post Thanks / Like
    Henry VIII

  3. #3
    All League
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    East of the Jordan, West of the Rock of Gibraltar
    Posts
    4,764
    Post Thanks / Like
    Martin Luther

  4. #4
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Van down by the river
    Posts
    22,376
    Post Thanks / Like
    The beast with the 10 horns will:

    [QUOTE=Revelation 17:16]The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. [/QUOTE]

  5. #5
    All League
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Farmingdale, NY
    Posts
    2,517
    Post Thanks / Like
    A lion in the coliseum.

  6. #6
    All League
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    3,638
    Post Thanks / Like
    but I thought the catholic faith was under attack and being subverted? I thought Catholics were victims of persecution in America by the left? I thought there was a war on Christmas?



    If they never lose then why all the outrage?

  7. #7
    Banned
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    1,903
    Post Thanks / Like
    Sucks to be you, Moonbats, you won't be able to destroy the Catholic Church like you destroyed the Anglican/Episcopal Church....

    [B][U]How the Apostates Take Over, Part 1[/U][/B]



    The evangelical church is under constant threat to compromise its reliance on biblical truth. The human desire to be accepted, to not be seen as “outside the mainstream,” can be overwhelming. But that desire is our weakness, our downfall. It does not always immediately destroy the dam we build to protect the waters of truth, but instead it leads to tiny fissures that grow until destruction is inevitable.

    Twenty years ago, I experienced the painful demise of the Episcopal Church, who once was a bastion of biblical truth. It was not a pretty picture. It was a picture painted in the primary colors of relentlessness and deception.

    The combination of those elements inevitably led some sincere folks to weariness, and willingness to compromise, and yes, ultimately to surrender. For those who sought peace at any price, conformity over conviction, and popularity over principle, capitulation seemed the easier way out.

    The initial compromise, which caused the first cracks in the dike, seemed innocent enough at the time: the ordination of women.

    But to truly understand how that initial compromise caused a wave of liberalism to overcome biblical boundaries within the Episcopal Church (and soon by the rest of the mainline denominations), we have to understand the different groups involved.

    Sincere followers of Christ made up the first group. They believed in Jesus and the scriptures. To them, the effort to ordain women seemed genuine. But they ultimately bought into the secular argument that the ordination of women was merely an issue of equality, sharing power, responding to new realities, and gaining relevancy with modern culture. Those believers were most troublesome of all. Although they adhered to the secular perspective, no one could accuse them of having “departed the faith once delivered.”

    The second group, which pushed the breached even further, was comprised of people who were religious but biblically illiterate. They followed a simple faith not rooted in history. They were more willing to follow than to think.

    The third group was made up of committed liberals, or as I prefer to call them, apostates. That group often worked behind the scenes. They hid in the shadows, preferring to steer the second group forward while putting pressure on the first group. They fueled the secular media with proclamations that the church was “hopelessly out of touch with the real world” or that the “male-dominated church is unwilling to share power with women.”

    The media—which loves to denigrate the church and its leadership for refusing to adhere to a godless culture—used its powerful megaphone to condemn the church. Of course, the media never understood that ministry in the Church of Jesus Christ is not about power. A pastor models himself after Jesus, who “did not come to be served, but to serve.”

    When apostate Christians and agnostics were allowed to set the agenda and define the arguments, the faint of heart self-consciously sought to surrender. Quickly abandoned were Martin Luther’s words: “Here I stand. I can do no other.”

    The ordination of women was not the end of the road—not by any means. Those who had stood up for adherence to biblical standards knew all too well that the push for compromise was merely a prelude to a long hidden agenda: extreme feminism, abortion rights, homosexual advocacy, and the tolerance of all sorts of unsavory practices within the church.

    Back then, I watched and wept over the first group; they were my comrades in arms, and they surrendered their birthright for a morsel of peace and acceptability. They surrendered their birthright, and before long, the cracks in the dam led to its massive collapse.

    When communities in the Bible rejected the disciples, Jesus instructed his followers to shake the dust off their feet and move on. He did not instruct them to compromise in order to avoid rejection. He told them that rejection would be part of the deal.

    Countless followers of Jesus, from those first disciples to today’s martyrs, have ultimately given their lives rather than compromise. That same courage is expected of us as well.

    [url]http://townhall.com/columnists/michaelyoussef/2012/03/18/how_the_apostates_take_over_part_1[/url]

  8. #8
    All League
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    East of the Jordan, West of the Rock of Gibraltar
    Posts
    4,764
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=Frequent Flyer;4401356]Sucks to be you, Moonbats, [B][U]you [/U]won't be able to destroy the Catholic Church[/B] like you destroyed the Anglican/Episcopal Church....

    [/QUOTE]

    Right...They will do it to themselves by covering-up for the Pedophiles that hide in their ranks.

  9. #9
    Jets Insider VIP
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    14,746
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=Buster;4401401]Right...They will do it to themselves by covering-up for the Pedophiles that hide in their ranks.[/QUOTE]

    Costs for clergy sex abuse at $2.6 billion

  10. #10
    JetsInsider.com Legend
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    49,999
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=cr726;4401413]Costs for clergy sex abuse at $2.6 billion[/QUOTE]

    I guess the abuse victims picked a fight and won.

  11. #11
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Van down by the river
    Posts
    22,376
    Post Thanks / Like
    What's really hilarious....and it escapes Mr. Catholic here...is that his own comic, er, holy book ACTUALLY spells out in prophecy that his church....










    ...wait for it....











    WOULD HAVE "FIGHTS" PICKED WITH IT during the end days.

    So, for all of his internet bellyaching about how mean the secular world is to his poor poor church, his spiritual leader predicted and prophesied that what is happening would happen. I'm unsure of Jesus's thoughts on football message boards however.

  12. #12
    All League
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    East of the Jordan, West of the Rock of Gibraltar
    Posts
    4,764
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=FF2®;4401420]I guess the abuse victims picked a fight and won.[/QUOTE]


    I think all of the abuse victims would rather not have been involved

  13. #13
    JetsInsider.com Legend
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    37,611
    Post Thanks / Like
    The Protestants all did, and they all won. They're all still here, after all.

  14. #14
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Van down by the river
    Posts
    22,376
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=Warfish;4401502]The Protestants all did, and they all won. They're all still here, after all.[/QUOTE]

    The Aztecs didn't. Or the Mayans or Incans.

    But the pope has a really cool golden scepter in the shape of cross that is made out of a mixture of stolen gold and warm blood.

    Very cool. It's makes God happy.

  15. #15
    Veteran
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    1,710
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan;4401428]I'm unsure of Jesus's thoughts on football message boards however.[/QUOTE]

    I bet Jesus hates the Jets.

  16. #16
    Banned
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    1,903
    Post Thanks / Like
    I see I struck a nerve with the moonbats on this issue. Good. I'm going to drive the pin in your ear a little further, more and more each day as we lead up to the glorious day in November when Barry boy is sent packing back to Chicago.:yes:



    “This isn’t about Catholics or contraception. This is about the government coercing religious institutions to violate their own beliefs.”

    So clarifies the Becket Fund for Religious Liberty in their feature ‘The Truth Should Not Be A Secret’. It aims to debunk the top myths that quickly circulated out of spin control centers from the administration and their complicit media partners.

    I’ve heard every one of them and have had to counter them with facts, time and again, so this post by Becket Fund helps center and ground the debate.

    Take this one, for instance:

    Myth #5: The federal mandate actually protects women’s health because it increases access to free birth control.

    Truth: Access isn’t the issue. 9 out of 10 employer-based insurance plans already cover these services. There is no need for the government to force religious groups to provide these services against their religious convictions.

    One could launch a whole debate just on component parts of that sentence in Myth #5.

    And then a whopper:

    Myth #6: In a recent poll, 98% of Catholic women said they already used artificial birth control anyhow. So what’s the big deal?

    The ‘lie repeated often enough’ that is not only addressed succinctly here but nailed perfectly by Michael Cook here.

    The government would just prefer that we focus on Catholics and their beliefs about birth control. Because that deflects attention from the far less winnable battle for the Obama administration over denying fundamental religious liberty in America for individuals and institutions.

    But that’s what the controversial HHS mandate is about. Which is why so many religious leaders and scholars are speaking out.

    Like Dr. Timothy George and Chuck Colson.

    The Catholic bishops in America have responded quickly, decrying the Administration’s decision for what it is—an egregious, dangerous violation of religious liberty—and mobilizing a vast grassroots movement to persuade the Administration to reverse its decision.

    We evangelicals must stand unequivocally with our Roman Catholic brothers and sisters. Because when the government violates the religious liberty of one group, it threatens the religious liberty of all.

    And Rev. Dr. Matthew Harrison, President of the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, who testified by a House Committee on the mandate.

    While we are opposed in principle, not to all forms of birth control, but only abortion-causing drugs, we stand with our friends in the Catholic Church and all others, Christians and non-Christians, under the free exercise and conscience provisions of the U.S. Constitution.

    “Religious people determine what violates their consciences, not the federal government. The conscience is a sacred thing. Our church exists because overzealous governments in northern Europe made decisions which trampled the religious convictions of our forebearers.

    They’re facing off with an overzealous government in the US with either a short memory or deliberate defiance of fundamental founding principles or both. And, as President Harrison told me at the end of the week, opponents of this mandate are not going away. There’s too much at stake.
    This article was originally published on MercatorNet under a Creative Commons License.

    [url]http://catholicexchange.com/debunking-obamas-myths-about-catholics-and-contraception/[/url]

  17. #17
    All League
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Parsippany, NJ
    Posts
    3,663
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=Frequent Flyer;4402180]I see I struck a nerve with the moonbats on this issue. Good. I'm going to drive the pin in your ear a little further, more and more each day as we lead up to the glorious day in November when Barry boy is sent packing back to Chicago.:yes:

    [/QUOTE]

    Actually don't think you've really struck much of a nerve with anyone.

    You're gonna wake up on November 7 thinking something like this: how the **** did we lose to this guy again? Just like left in 2004.

  18. #18
    Banned
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    1,903
    Post Thanks / Like
    This election comes down to 4 or 5 swing states, Ohio being one of them. Ohio voters in 2010 were angry at the president and at Democrats, and they showed it in voting booths: Republicans swept every statewide office, defeating a sitting governor and four other incumbent executives, adding 13 seats in the Ohio House and two in the Ohio Senate.

    On the federal level, Ohio Republicans defeated five incumbent Democrats, winning 13 of 18 U.S. House seats and helping to make Ohio's John Boehner the next House Speaker.

    Republicans also retained a U.S. Senate seat by electing Rob Portman, and they scored a 77 percent success rate in down-ballot county races.

    That reflects a lot of voter anger.

    Did I mention there are alot of Catholics in Ohio?

  19. #19
    Jets Insider VIP
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    14,746
    Post Thanks / Like
    2 questions:
    1. Ohio must be in great shape now that the GOP has had 2 years of power, right?
    2. When will you be moving to Ohio?


    [QUOTE=Frequent Flyer;4402203]This election comes down to 4 or 5 swing states, Ohio being one of them. Ohio voters in 2010 were angry at the president and at Democrats, and they showed it in voting booths: Republicans swept every statewide office, defeating a sitting governor and four other incumbent executives, adding 13 seats in the Ohio House and two in the Ohio Senate.

    On the federal level, Ohio Republicans defeated five incumbent Democrats, winning 13 of 18 U.S. House seats and helping to make Ohio's John Boehner the next House Speaker.

    Republicans also retained a U.S. Senate seat by electing Rob Portman, and they scored a 77 percent success rate in down-ballot county races.

    That reflects a lot of voter anger.

    Did I mention there are alot of Catholics in Ohio?[/QUOTE]

  20. #20
    Hall Of Fame
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Van down by the river
    Posts
    22,376
    Post Thanks / Like
    [QUOTE=cr726;4402250]2 questions:
    1. Ohio must be in great shape now that the GOP has had 2 years of power, right?
    2. When will you be moving to Ohio?[/QUOTE]

    Ohio. Leading the nation in Meth labs and Catholicism....but second in the nation to Florida for frequency of flat-out BizzaroWorld news stories.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Follow Us