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Thread: The wonderful church at work.

  1. #21
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    If you sincerely want to become an authority on the subject matter, the John Jay report is a great place to start:

    [url]http://www.bishop-accountability.org/reports/2004_02_27_JohnJay/[/url]

    [url]http://www.catholicleague.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/John-Jay-Report-1-27-12-Update.pdf[/url]

    If you want more, I can provide more.
    Last edited by Frequent Flyer; 03-27-2012 at 01:39 PM.

  2. #22
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    [QUOTE=FF2®;4418791]Looks like the church is going to have to open up the coffers again.



    [url]http://news.yahoo.com/forced-adoptions-for-unwed-mothers-around-the-globe.html[/url]



    Adopted or abducted?

    Veil of secrecy lifts slowly on decades of forced adoptions for unwed mothers around the globe.

    By Dan Rather | Yahoo! News

    Most women describe giving birth to a child as a life changing experience – in a word – “challenging”, “joyous”, “miraculous.” But generations of young, unwed women describe their experience of giving birth to a child as a nightmare – and decades later their suffering has yet to end.

    From Australia to Spain, Ireland to America, and as recent as 1987, young mothers say they were “coerced”, “manipulated”, and “duped” into handing over their babies for adoption. These women say sometimes their parents forged consent documents, but more often they say these forced adoptions were coordinated by the people their families trusted most...priests, nuns, social workers, nurses or doctors.

    Last month, a Dan Rather Reports producer and crew were in Canberra, Australia as Parliament released the findings of an 18-month-long investigation revealing illegal and unethical tactics used to convince young, unmarried mothers to surrender their babies to adoptive homes from the late 1940s to the 1980s. And we interviewed some of the victims -- adoptees and mothers separated at birth.

    “One of the happiest days of my life, most proudest achievements, is giving birth and holding my newborn child,” says Senator Rachel Siewert, who oversaw the Australian Senate Committee Report. “These women didn't have that experience. And I can't imagine it.”

    [B]Siewert added, “There was a lot of testimony from people that were associated with Catholic institutions. And Catholic Health Services here issued an apology and I understand they're gonna be putting in place some grievance procedures.” [/B]

    In some cases, mothers in Australia were [B]drugged and forced to sign papers[/B] relinquishing custody. In others, women were told their children had [B]died[/B]. Single mothers also did not have access to the financial support given to widows or abandoned wives, and many were told by doctors, nurses, and social workers that they were unfit to raise a child. Siewert says, “We heard practices that were either [B]illegal or unethical and downright cruel[/B].”

    “It wouldn't surprise me to hear the same thing happened elsewhere,” continues Siewert, “...the U.K., the U.S., Canada and Ireland. So you could, I think, expect that those countries also had these sorts of practices.”

    Two weeks ago, a prominent Canadian law firm announced that it would file a [B]class-action lawsuit against Quebec's Catholic Church[/B] accusing the Church of kidnapping, fraud and coercion to force unwed mothers to give up their children for adoption.

    Attorney Tony Merchant represents several hundred women who claim that when they were in maternity homes in the 1950s and 1960s, [B]social workers, nurses, doctors, and even men and women in the employ of the Catholic Church cooperated with government officials to force or, even coerce, young women to sign away their rights to keep their child never knowing they even had a choice. [/B]

    Merchant was quoted in the Montreal Gazette as saying, "The beliefs the Catholic Church (in Quebec) had about premarital sex and the judgmental approach the church had, made it particularly aggressive in pressuring women into putting their children up for adoption."

    In Spain, an 80-year-old nun, Sister Maria Gómez, became the first person accused of baby snatching in a scandal over the trafficking of 1,500 newborns in Spanish hospitals over four decades until the 1980s. The babies were either stolen, sold or given away by adoption.

    Since October, Dan Rather Reports has contacted nearly 100 alleged victims, social workers, researchers, lawyers and authors from around the world to shine a bright light on the issue of forced adoptions. The two most respected books on the subject of “forced adoptions,” Ann Fessler's The Girls Who Went Away and Rickie Solinger's Beggars and Choosers indicate that the tactics used to procure adoptable babies in Australia, Ireland, Canada and Spain were also implemented in the United States.

    We have interviewed numerous women in the U.S. who told us that they were sent to maternity homes, denied contact with their families and friends, forced to endure labor with purposely painful procedures and return home without their babies. Single, American mothers were also denied financial support and told that their children would be better off without them.

    [B]In some cases, they too were told that their babies had died[/B]. Many signed away their rights while drugged and exhausted after childbirth. Others were threatened with substantial medical bills if they didn't surrender or were manipulated through humiliation. According to Fessler, these seemingly unethical practices were used against as many as [B]1.5 million[/B] mothers in the United States.

    When we asked these women who say they were victims of “forced adoption” to use one word to describe their experience giving birth…here’s what they told us…

    “Sad” states Angie from Colorado, who says at age 19 her pregnancy was kept an absolute secret and that she disappeared before her infant daughter was put up for adoption against her will in 1972. “Sad” also states Chris from Massachusetts, who gave up her firstborn through Catholic Charities in 1969.

    “Trauma” states Valerie from Toronto who says in 1970 a Salvation Army matron at the Bethany Home for unwed mothers dropped her off at Grace Hospital in Toronto to labor alone. [B]While crying out in pain during labor, she says a nurse called her a “slut.” [/B]

    “Barbaric” states Christine, a PhD. candidate at the University of Western Sydney in Australia, who heads the Apology Alliance, made up of individuals and groups from all around Australia who seek an apology for the practices and policies that led to forced adoptions in her country.

    “Devastating” states Shawn who was a sophomore in college in 1974 when at age 19 she gave birth to a son she has yet to see in person or touch. During the delivery, she says her doctor forcibly grabbed her foot and said, [B]“I hope this has taught you not to get in trouble again.”[/B]

    “Horrifying” states Lily who was 17 in 1967 when she says she was “held in slavery for nearly 10 months” in a home for unwed mothers before she says she was forced to give her son up for adoption.

    “Traumatic” states Fran from Pennsylvania, who says in 1959 at age 20 she did not give informed consent before her son was placed for adoption. “It was not a choice…it was social policy.”

    “Tragic” states Susan, who at age 21 in 1967 says she had to fight just to see her daughter a day after giving birth to her at Miserecordia Hospital in Milwaukee. A supervisor tried to talk her out of it, but she persisted. A few days later, she regrettably agreed to give her daughter up for adoption.

    "Torture" states Hanne from British Columbia, Canada, who says at age 16, her baby girl was “stolen...abducted on the delivery table.” “Torture” also states Carlynne from Florida, who says at age 20, she was not able to see, touch or was told the sex of her baby before being forced to put it up for adoption.

    “Shattering” states Karen who was living in Virginia in 1966, when at age 18, she says she was “told by Catholic Charities to sign the paper” and give her daughter up for adoption. “I was never told I could visit her in foster care. I didn’t even know she was in foster care. I wasn’t told that I had six months to get her!! To change my mind.. as if I had even made up my own mind. I didn’t...they did.”

    “Horrific” states Laura from Virginia, who says at age 16 she was “forced” to give her son up for adoption in 1972. “I was totally coerced from day one.”

    “Decimated” states Elizabeth from Melbourne, Australia, who says in 1963 at age 18 she was rendered unconscious before her daughter was taken from her at birth, even though she was married to the father of her baby 11 months before the adoption was finalized. “Decimated” also states Leslie, who at age 17 was going into labor at a maternity home in Alabama when “Sister Martha, the director of the maternity home drove me to the hospital, pulled into the driveway and let me out. I went in and admitted myself. I labored that night (alone) in one of the hallways” because she says she was told the maternity ward was only for married women. Ironically, the son she says was taken from her was born on Mother’s Day 1966.

    Carol, was a college freshman in 1966, when she says a social worker in Pittsburgh betrayed her with promises to help her keep newborn son. After the birth, drugged and disoriented, Carol says she unknowingly signed relinquishment papers presented by that social worker as hospital release forms. She needed two words to answer our question, “soul rape.”[/QUOTE]



    to recap:

    Obama declares war on Church
    Church declares war on Obama
    media comes to Obama's aid

    I saw this coming a mile away. :yes:

  3. #23
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    [QUOTE=quantum;4419341]to recap:

    Obama declares war on Church
    Church declares war on Obama
    media comes to Obama's aid

    I saw this coming a mile away. :yes:[/QUOTE]

    Maybe the church should pray for God's aid, huh? ;)

  4. #24
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    very interesting stab at reinforcing abortion as the best moral choice a mother could make....but still stupid

  5. #25
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    [QUOTE=palmetto defender;4419241]I know you are a religious person and I know you are a lawyer. We have some theological differences but that is to be expected among those of different faiths.
    That said, I can think of no religion that I aware of - Catholic, Jewish, Moslem, most Protestant religions that do not have behavioral problems.
    The fact that the Catholic Church is centralized and Judaism is not as an example does not mean there are not major culprits among Jewish clergy. When I lived in NJ they were rampant. I am NOT singling out Judaism because you are a Jew but because you are certainly aware of problems in your own area of knowledge. Can't overly comment on the Hindu religion, or Buddism or Shinto.[/quote]

    Agreed. Rabbis and prominent jews have engaged in child abuse, white collar crime, and other abominable behavior. Here's the thing, though. Jews have a doctrine that covers that type of behavior: it's called a [I]chillul Hashem[/I] - disgracing the name of God. It is one of the worst things a Jew can do.

    In other words, we recognize that it reflects poorly not only on the individual but on the community as a whole, and react accordingly.

    The church's behavior on a number of issues has been a stain on the catholic religion. That is true on the cover up of sex abuse, true on this issue, was true on the issue of forced conversions and kidnappings of jewish children in the relatively recent past. I can't speak for catholics, but the appropriate response from catholics, IMO, would be similar to what I think we all agree ought to be the response from muslims to Islamic terrorism: vocal condemnation and calls for such practices to end, and steps taken to prevent recurrences. Instead, the response I usually see (and I can only go by what I've seen) is to circle the wagons and condemn the people identifying these issues as bigots.

    I don't make any judgments about catholicism or catholics on the basis of these issues - I have theological judgments about catholicism, and christianity in general, that catholics wouldn't particularly agree with or like :D, but that's the nature of having a different religious viewpoint, and not based on bad behavior by individuals or institutions. But I do think the response from catholics ought to be different than the response I usually see here and elsewhere.

  6. #26
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    [QUOTE=JetPotato;4419222]Perhaps celibacy is not only a cause, but it also attracts certain people to the priesthood? People who maybe recognize their own sick sexual desires and seek to repress them through a lifestyle dedicated to that? And then some of them ultimately fail...[/QUOTE]

    That would be my guess as well.

  7. #27
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    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan;4419359]Maybe the church should pray for God's aid, huh? ;)[/QUOTE]

    thought you would make a Tebow joke.


    Disappoint is me. :(

  8. #28
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    [QUOTE=doggin94it;4419450]Jews have a doctrine that covers that type of behavior: it's called a chillul Hashem - disgracing the name of God. It is one of the worst things a Jew can do.

    In other words, we recognize that it reflects poorly not only on the individual but on the community as a whole, and react accordingly.

    The church's behavior on a number of issues has been a stain on the catholic religion.

    [/QUOTE]


    [B][SIZE="5"]Suffering In Silence: Child Sexual Abuse In Kiryas Joel[/SIZE][/B]

    Shlomo Weiss grew up in Kiryas Joel, a rural Orthodox-Jewish town, and says that he was sexually abused starting at the age of 7, adding that the abuse was regularly covered up by others in the close-knit community.

    Suffering in Silence: A News 12 special report

    News12

    (08/31/10) KIRYAS JOEL - Shlomo Weiss grew up in Kiryas Joel, a rural Orthodox-Jewish town, and says that he was sexually abused starting at the age of 7, adding that the abuse was regularly covered up by others in the close-knit community.

    Now 36 years old and living in Brooklyn, Weiss says that in a horrifying twist, his abuser was the one man who should've been protecting him -- his father.

    It would be nine long years before Weiss would seek help, revealing his secret to his school teachers and to the head rabbi at the Nitra Yeshiva in Mount Kisco, where he was studying.

    Instead of calling police, however, Weiss says he was sent to study in Europe and then pressured into an arranged marriage at the age of 19. Meanwhile, Weiss' father remained free, working as a school bus driver.

    Weiss recently visited the Westchester campus of his yeshiva to demand answers. His former teacher admitted to remembering his story, but said their community is resistant to outside involvement when handling sex abuse cases.

    "For them, it's easier not to acknowledge a problem exists," Weiss says.

    Advocates say Weiss' story is much more common than people might think.

    "I don't think there's any community on Earth that has this percentage of people victimized," says Ben Hirsch, of Survivors for Justice.

    Hirsch's Manhattan-based group is dedicated to helping ultra-Orthodox Jewish victims of sexual abuse. Hirsch believes there are thousands of them, yet their cases seldom end up in court because a rabbi's permission is needed to call police.

    Over the past 30 years, there has been only one Hassidic man from Kiryas Joel who was convicted of a sex crime. Most pedophiles, however, are simply expelled out of the community, Hirsch says.

    However, Ari Felberman, the public relations director for Kiryas Joel, denies all allegations of covering up sexual abuse cases.

    Following his interview with News 12, Weiss confronted his father about the alleged abuse, to which Joseph Weiss responded with silence and stormed away. Still, Shlomo Weiss says the experience has left him a changed man. He hopes it will encourage other victims to speak up.


    [url]http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2010/08/suffering-in-silence-child-sexual-abuse-in-kiryas-joel-345.html#tp[/url]


    Thats just one...out of many articles covering sexual abuse, rape and cover-ups in the orthodox community. Just sayin.

    -

  9. #29
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    Living in their own clannish non-Catholic conclaves, some people obviously haven't seen a lot.


    Unlike say the conflicted boycott-minded folks of Park Slope, no right-minded Catholics are for coverups of predators of any kind. The laity by and large would like whatever criminals in ther midst if not swinging on a gallows locked up with the key thrown away.


    A minority of priests may be drawn into, or wish to live a deviant/deviate lifestyle, but most go into the priesthood for altruistic reasons, with many opportunties to exit if sexuality became a concern. And, if you actually knew any priests, you'd know their biggest problem was keeping their [B]goumadas[/B] secret.


    Millions of Catholics grew up and went to their churches and parochial schools without ever being abused in any way, yet some are very eager to tarnish all with the same broad brush when the incidence of abuse is greater in public schools or other institutions.


    You want systemic institutionalized and endemic? Try investigating the mysogyny and hatred broadcast by such as Calypso Louie towards others that you will never hear in your garden variety synagogue or Catholic church.

  10. #30
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    [QUOTE=quantum;4419481]thought you would make a Tebow joke.


    Disappoint is me. :([/QUOTE]

    I promised to not say anything about Tebow's beliefs after he knocked the Steelers out of the playoffs.

    I still stand by that promise.

  11. #31
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    So no one will condemn this practice. just attack?

    shocking.

  12. #32
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    Tebow in the house.

  13. #33
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    [QUOTE=32green;4419524][B][SIZE=5]Suffering In Silence: Child Sexual Abuse In Kiryas Joel[/SIZE][/B]

    Shlomo Weiss grew up in Kiryas Joel, a rural Orthodox-Jewish town, and says that he was sexually abused starting at the age of 7, adding that the abuse was regularly covered up by others in the close-knit community.

    Suffering in Silence: A News 12 special report

    News12

    (08/31/10) KIRYAS JOEL - Shlomo Weiss grew up in Kiryas Joel, a rural Orthodox-Jewish town, and says that he was sexually abused starting at the age of 7, adding that the abuse was regularly covered up by others in the close-knit community.

    Now 36 years old and living in Brooklyn, Weiss says that in a horrifying twist, his abuser was the one man who should've been protecting him -- his father.

    It would be nine long years before Weiss would seek help, revealing his secret to his school teachers and to the head rabbi at the Nitra Yeshiva in Mount Kisco, where he was studying.

    Instead of calling police, however, Weiss says he was sent to study in Europe and then pressured into an arranged marriage at the age of 19. Meanwhile, Weiss' father remained free, working as a school bus driver.

    Weiss recently visited the Westchester campus of his yeshiva to demand answers. His former teacher admitted to remembering his story, but said their community is resistant to outside involvement when handling sex abuse cases.

    "For them, it's easier not to acknowledge a problem exists," Weiss says.

    Advocates say Weiss' story is much more common than people might think.

    "I don't think there's any community on Earth that has this percentage of people victimized," says Ben Hirsch, of Survivors for Justice.

    Hirsch's Manhattan-based group is dedicated to helping ultra-Orthodox Jewish victims of sexual abuse. Hirsch believes there are thousands of them, yet their cases seldom end up in court because a rabbi's permission is needed to call police.

    Over the past 30 years, there has been only one Hassidic man from Kiryas Joel who was convicted of a sex crime. Most pedophiles, however, are simply expelled out of the community, Hirsch says.

    However, Ari Felberman, the public relations director for Kiryas Joel, denies all allegations of covering up sexual abuse cases.

    Following his interview with News 12, Weiss confronted his father about the alleged abuse, to which Joseph Weiss responded with silence and stormed away. Still, Shlomo Weiss says the experience has left him a changed man. He hopes it will encourage other victims to speak up.


    [URL]http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2010/08/suffering-in-silence-child-sexual-abuse-in-kiryas-joel-345.html#tp[/URL]

    [B]
    Thats just one...out of many articles covering sexual abuse, rape and cover-ups in the orthodox community. Just sayin.[/B]

    -[/QUOTE]

    Sure - and what do you think the mainstream orthodox jewish response to that is? (aside from the fact that Satmar, like many hassidic sects, is akin to a particularly small stream of protestant christianity - its own, insular leaders and no real connection to the broader orthodox world) Outrage and disgust.

  14. #34
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    [QUOTE=doggin94it;4419685]Sure - and what do you think the mainstream orthodox jewish response to that is? (aside from the fact that Satmar, like many hassidic sects, is akin to a particularly small stream of protestant christianity - its own, insular leaders and no real connection to the broader orthodox world) Outrage and disgust.[/QUOTE]

    So its not...... a "stain on the Jewish religion?"


    Because its Satmar....

    I get it.

    I'll match your mainstream ortho jewish "outrage and disgust" with mainstream catholic outrage and disgust.

    -

  15. #35
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    [QUOTE=32green;4419734]mainstream catholic outrage and disgust.

    -[/QUOTE]

    tut tut...a few bad apples. nothing to see here. everybody does it.

  16. #36
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    [QUOTE=FF2®;4419759]tut tut...a few bad apples. nothing to see here. everybody does it.[/QUOTE]

    The b*lls.

    :rolleyes:

    -

  17. #37
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    [QUOTE=32green;4419806]The b*lls.

    :rolleyes:

    -[/QUOTE]

    Albeit for me to advise a MOD but this thread should be on lock down. As a Catholic I have bitten my tongue as to not offend fellow JETS fans.

  18. #38
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    [QUOTE=southparkcpa;4419812]Albeit for me to advise a MOD but this thread should be on lock down. As a Catholic I have bitten my tongue as to not offend fellow JETS fans.[/QUOTE]

    You are wise.

    No good can come of this.

    -

  19. #39
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    [QUOTE=FF2®;4419675]So no one will condemn this practice. just attack?

    shocking.[/QUOTE]

    Well what do you expect when you began the thread with a sarcastic, incendiary thread title? Already that put people on the defensive. The Church DOES do a lot of good work, whether you believe it or not.

    And of course everyone with half a brain condemns stuff like this. You really need a consensus on JI to reaffirm your belief that most people don't agree with child abuse? :rolleyes:

    This is out and out relig-trolling.

  20. #40
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    We need to eliminate the protection these organizations get, otherwise it's always going to seem to those in power that it's in their best interests to cover up crimes and indiscretions. Right now, sure, we'll prosecute the offenders, even chastise the organization that ran the cover up, but what other organization would be allowed to exist, let alone continue to conduct their business with full protections of the law (and then some) after half the number of transgressions of the same or similar nature. You want these crimes to stop? Shut 'em down. I'm not saying you shutter the whole catholic church, or ban the following of a particular sect of judaism, christianity, etc - you take it as far up the ladder as it goes, no more, no less. That way the top of the global organizations will start to police themselves, for fear of the trail leading further up the ladder, and the bottom of the local organizations as well, for fear of losing their local institution, instead of engaging in/abiding cover ups. Use RICO, infiltrate, etc - all of the tools that you'd use against any other organization, especially one that has been proven to be part of an ongoing criminal act (the cover up, hiding the crimes to further their financial enterprise).

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