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Thread: New York Knicks (7) vs. Miami Heat (2): Eastern Conference Quarterfinals

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Drama View Post
    The Knicks suffer from the problem of incredible loyalty. I would be pumped if we could somehow trade Amare+Chandler for Howard+(**** Player). Melo needs a guy with a back to the basket game and as much as I love Tyson, Dwight's impact is even better.

    More likely you will see something like this.

    Lin/ Vet PG- I would love to get JKidd for a backup role considering he's 38.
    Shumpert/ Smith
    Anthony/Fields
    Amare/ Harrelson
    Chandler/ Jordan
    I think the Knicks are far more likely to keep Novak than JR Smith... JR Smith will want a legit contract.

  2. #102
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    The bottom line is that we are screwed.

    The Knicks went all in with the wrong players. Amare is shot. Carmelo is not Kobe. And we don't have a legit point guard. (Lin is a back-up)

    Otherwise, things are looking good.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traitor Jay & the Woodies View Post
    The bottom line is that we are screwed.

    The Knicks went all in with the wrong players. Amare is shot. Carmelo is not Kobe. And we don't have a legit point guard. (Lin is a back-up)

    Otherwise, things are looking good.
    So who should they have gone all in with? They tried getting Lebron and Bosh and it didn't work out. They tried to get Chris Paul but there was no way Stern was letting Paul go to the Knicks he wouldn't even allow Paul to go to the Lakers a team that Stern actually favors so forget about him letting Paul go to NY.

    If this same team faces Chicago instead of Miami in round 1 we're probably discussing the upcoming second round matchup. I'm not as down on Melo/Amare as you are but I do agree that there is certainly a 2nd round ceiling to this core.

    We'll see what happens this off-season. Dwight Howard is definitely a possibility.
    Last edited by detjetsfan; 05-10-2012 at 06:56 PM.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Austin View Post
    I think the Knicks are far more likely to keep Novak than JR Smith... JR Smith will want a legit contract.
    Smith is still under contract for next season but he is a head-case so I can certainly see him holding out for a big contract this summer. Novak is a nice shooter to have off the bench but I'd be wary of overpaying him in a long-term deal.

    Ultimately I think both are back next season.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by detjetsfan View Post
    Smith is still under contract for next season but he is a head-case so I can certainly see him holding out for a big contract this summer. Novak is a nice shooter to have off the bench but I'd be wary of overpaying him in a long-term deal.

    Ultimately I think both are back next season.
    Are you sure about Smith? I thought he signed for 1 year 2.5 million when he got back from China.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Austin View Post
    Are you sure about Smith? I thought he signed for 1 year 2.5 million when he got back from China.
    According to spotrac, Smith is a UFA in 2012 with a player option.

    In other words, Smith holds the cards.

    http://www.spotrac.com/nba/new-york-knicks/j.r.-smith/

  7. #107
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    So basically

    Under contract:

    Melo
    Amare
    Chandler
    Shumpert
    Douglas

    RFA:

    Lin
    Fields
    Harrellson

    UFA:

    Davis
    Smith
    Novak
    Bibby
    anyone else of consequence

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by detjetsfan View Post
    So who should they have gone all in with? They tried getting Lebron and Bosh and it didn't work out. They tried to get Chris Paul but there was no way Stern was letting Paul go to the Knicks he wouldn't even allow Paul to go to the Lakers a team that Stern actually favors so forget about him letting Paul go to NY.

    If this same team faces Chicago instead of Miami in round 1 we're probably discussing the upcoming second round matchup. I'm not as down on Melo/Amare as you are but I do agree that there is certainly a 2nd round ceiling to this core.

    We'll see what happens this off-season. Dwight Howard is definitely a possibility.
    My point was that they shouldn't have gone all in.

    Dolan was hellbent on landing a trophy (Melo) under the false pretense that he was/is a top 5 player in the league. He isn't.

    We paid LeBron/Bosh money for and inferior combo. And we had to trade our entire team to do it. The Heat didn't trade anyone and they have Wade.

    This series, more than anything, simply proved that our big three and their big three are not in the same league. And we are not going to close the gap anytime soon.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traitor Jay & the Woodies View Post
    My point was that they shouldn't have gone all in.

    Dolan was hellbent on landing a trophy (Melo) under the false pretense that he was/is a top 5 player in the league. He isn't.

    We paid LeBron/Bosh money for and inferior combo. And we had to trade our entire team to do it. The Heat didn't trade anyone and they have Wade.

    This series, more than anything, simply proved that our big three and their big three are not in the same league. And we are not going to close the gap anytime soon.
    Your point is the Knicks should not have gone "all in"? So what was the better option? Another 10 years of losing seasons and being irrelevant?

    The Heat were fortunate. It is as simple as that. They already had Wade on their books and were able to sign two additional max player superstars while also using the Bird exception to resign their own player Wade. No other team in the NBA had that advantage in 2010.


    To blame the Knicks and Dolan for not being in that position is totally unfair. So the Knicks should have passed on Melo and Amare for .... wait for it ...?
    Last edited by detjetsfan; 05-15-2012 at 12:21 PM.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by detjetsfan View Post
    Your point is the Knicks should not have gone "all in"? So what was the better option? Another 10 years of losing seasons and being irrelevant?

    The Heat were fortunate. It is as simple as that. They already had Wade on their books and were able to sign two additional max player superstars while also using the Bird exception to resign their own player Wade. No other team in the NBA had that advantage in 2010.


    To blame the Knicks and Dolan for not being in that position is totally unfair. So the Knicks should have passed on Melo and Amare for .... wait for it ...?
    Hold up there. You're putting words in my mouth. I'm not blaming the Knicks or Dolan for not being in that more fortunate position.

    But to say that the Amare signing and Melo trade were the only viable options available is simply not true. The Nets got Derron Williams for a song.

    The options weren't go all in or do nothing, btw. The Knicks went all in because of the "Transformation" - not to win championships.

    Dolan wanted Melo at any price. He was fleeced. And then he put him on a team with one other star who *everyone* said would not mesh together.

    This is not hindsight. Many of us saw this debacle coming a mile away. It's not second guessing. It was predicted.
    Last edited by Traitor Jay & the Woodies; 05-15-2012 at 06:19 PM.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traitor Jay & the Woodies View Post
    Hold up there. You're putting words in my mouth. I'm not blaming the Knicks or Dolan for not being in that more fortunate position.

    But to say that the Amare signing and Melo trade were the only viable options available is simply not true. The Nets got Derron Williams for a song.

    The options weren't go all in or do nothing, btw. The Knicks went all in because of the "Transformation" - not to win championships.

    Dolan wanted Melo at any price. He was fleeced. And then he put him on a team with one other star who *everyone* said would not mesh together.

    This is not hindsight. Many of us saw this debacle coming a mile away. It's not second guessing. It was predicted.
    Yeah the Nets with Deron Williams looked great last season finishing 14 games below .500 and not even sniffing playoffs. As for Howard - if the Nets are lucky they might get him by February 2013 though if the Knicks had any balls they're actually in a better position to get Howard this off-season with a package of Melo or Amare and Tyson Chandler.

    Melo/Amare was the best option the Knicks had in their situation. The Nuggets gave an aging Lakers team that's missing Ron Artest and may end up getting swept in rd 2 a hard time. Yay, break out the champagne bottles and trophies.

    I'll give you a clue. The Knicks before the Melo trade didn't match up well with the Heat. The Knicks after the Melo trade don't match up well with the Heat. Not on Melo same way it wouldn't have been on your all of a sudden precious Gallo and Timofey Mozgov who would have gotten their ass swept in 4 games by this Heat team.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traitor Jay & the Woodies View Post
    Hold up there. You're putting words in my mouth. I'm not blaming the Knicks or Dolan for not being in that more fortunate position.

    But to say that the Amare signing and Melo trade were the only viable options available is simply not true. The Nets got Derron Williams for a song.

    The options weren't go all in or do nothing, btw. The Knicks went all in because of the "Transformation" - not to win championships.

    Dolan wanted Melo at any price. He was fleeced. And then he put him on a team with one other star who *everyone* said would not mesh together.

    This is not hindsight. Many of us saw this debacle coming a mile away. It's not second guessing. It was predicted.
    Why is it a "debacle"?

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by SMC View Post
    Why is it a "debacle"?
    +1. The Knicks have serious question marks, but will more than likely be the favorites to win the Atlantic division -- a healthy Knicks team isn't elite but could compete with just about anyone.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by SMC View Post
    Why is it a "debacle"?
    Why is what a debacle? The Knicks in general? The trade for Melo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Austin View Post
    +1. The Knicks have serious question marks, but will more than likely be the favorites to win the Atlantic division -- a healthy Knicks team isn't elite but could compete with just about anyone.
    Really? That's exactly what a lot of people said before this season began. And even if they did win the Atlantic, it's sort of like being the king of the dip****s.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by detjetsfan View Post
    Yeah the Nets with Deron Williams looked great last season finishing 14 games below .500 and not even sniffing playoffs. As for Howard - if the Nets are lucky they might get him by February 2013 though if the Knicks had any balls they're actually in a better position to get Howard this off-season with a package of Melo or Amare and Tyson Chandler.

    Melo/Amare was the best option the Knicks had in their situation. The Nuggets gave an aging Lakers team that's missing Ron Artest and may end up getting swept in rd 2 a hard time. Yay, break out the champagne bottles and trophies.

    I'll give you a clue. The Knicks before the Melo trade didn't match up well with the Heat. The Knicks after the Melo trade don't match up well with the Heat. Not on Melo same way it wouldn't have been on your all of a sudden precious Gallo and Timofey Mozgov who would have gotten their ass swept in 4 games by this Heat team.
    Keep the clue. You put Deron Williams on the Knicks this past season (instead of melo) and they definitely get a higher seed and probably win at least one playoff series.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traitor Jay & the Woodies View Post

    Really? That's exactly what a lot of people said before this season began. And even if they did win the Atlantic, it's sort of like being the king of the dip****s.
    I'd sign up for the Atlantic Division Title, the 3 seed and home court in the first round right now, which is what I think they're gonna have a realistic shot at -- I think when healthy the Knicks are still formidable. They didn't go 18-6 (I think?) under Woodson by accident; people are overreacting to the series vs. the Heat, who might be, you know, the best team in the league.

    Hell, nobody knows what the future holds. Maybe The Heat lose in 6 to the Pacers and Pat Riley blows it up. Stranger things have happened.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Austin View Post
    I'd sign up for the Atlantic Division Title, the 3 seed and home court in the first round right now, which is what I think they're gonna have a realistic shot at -- I think when healthy the Knicks are still formidable. They didn't go 18-6 (I think?) under Woodson by accident; people are overreacting to the series vs. the Heat, who might be, you know, the best team in the league.

    Hell, nobody knows what the future holds. Maybe The Heat lose in 6 to the Pacers and Pat Riley blows it up. Stranger things have happened.
    Perhaps this is a reflection of my age, but I'm old enough to remember the Knicks "glory" years of the Ewing era where we competed for a Championship every year and never got there, but too young to remember the actual championships.

    Like my Jets fandom, I am hungry for a championship. So while I can appreciate this team makes the playoffs after a decade of a complete futility, I don't consider the last 2 years any type of actual achievement.

    So when I look back at the "Knicks being back" these past 2 seasons, I don't see a team that gives me much optimism for actually winning a title. And that frustrates me.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traitor Jay & the Woodies View Post
    Why is what a debacle? The Knicks in general? The trade for Melo?
    You haven't explained how it's a debacle.

    The Knicks have back-to-back winning seasons and playoff births for the first time in 10 years. They had a better winning percentage this year than last. That's improvement.

    Again, please explain how is it a debacle.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traitor Jay & the Woodies View Post
    Keep the clue. You put Deron Williams on the Knicks this past season (instead of melo) and they definitely get a higher seed and probably win at least one playoff series.
    I love hypothetical arguments that have no basis in fact and are unverifiable.

    The Nets were a "debacle" with Deron while the Jazz made the playoffs in a tougher Western Conference without him.

    Oh wait, that argument only works against Melo, right?

  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traitor Jay & the Woodies View Post
    Perhaps this is a reflection of my age, but I'm old enough to remember the Knicks "glory" years of the Ewing era where we competed for a Championship every year and never got there, but too young to remember the actual championships.

    Like my Jets fandom, I am hungry for a championship. So while I can appreciate this team makes the playoffs after a decade of a complete futility, I don't consider the last 2 years any type of actual achievement.

    So when I look back at the "Knicks being back" these past 2 seasons, I don't see a team that gives me much optimism for actually winning a title. And that frustrates me.
    I understand the frustration.

    That said, I'm in my mid 20s and grew up near the end of the Ewing era (with the Ewing, Houston, Ward, Sprewell, LJ, Camby teams) and after a decade of being an absolutley pathetic laughing stock, I'm pretty stoked to just be relevant again.

    I don't think we're elite, but I don't think we're as far away from a championship as you do either.

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