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Thread: Steve Jobs great innovator

  1. #41
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    [QUOTE=parafly;4457835]It's time to implement a much simpler tax code with incentives for hiring and rewarding American workers. I know it's not a completely free market solution, but in my opinion, there has never been a more critical time when American jobs need to be [b]reasonably[/b] protected.

    In the coming decades, there will be billions of additional low cost workers entering the global workforce. Simply put, Americans will not be able to compete without taking a huge hit in wages and standard of living.

    We're heading toward a future where the only jobs in America are service and infrastructure.[/QUOTE]

    Jobs are leaving...this is a serious problem. I am fearful (and believe) there is no solution. Think about the jobs technology eliminates. It is in fact scary.
    What jobs are we talking about? factory jobs putting electronics together???? then the IPHONE would cost $500 and no one would buy it as the foreign model would cost $250.

    We shop at Walmart for low price but despise the way the prices are kept low. IF they raise the price and working benefits...we stop shopping there.

  2. #42
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    [QUOTE=southparkcpa;4457840]Jobs are leaving...this is a serious problem. I am fearful (and believe) there is no solution. Think about the jobs technology eliminates. It is in fact scary.
    What jobs are we talking about? factory jobs putting electronics together???? then the IPHONE would cost $500 and no one would buy it as the foreign model would cost $250.

    We shop at Walmart for low price but despise the way the prices are kept low. IF they raise the price and working benefits...we stop shopping there.[/QUOTE]

    I agree it's a serious problem, and there is no easy solution. In my opinion, the best approach is a simple corporate tax code with heavy incentives to hire American workers.

    Costs for Walmart consumers will increase substantially if manufacturing is moved from China to the US under the status quo system. However, if we implement a zero percent corporate tax rate for companies which implement such a change, these cost increases should be offset significantly.

    The loss of corporate tax revenue will also be offset by an increase in income tax revenue from American workers.

  3. #43
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    [QUOTE=parafly;4457859]I agree it's a serious problem, and there is no easy solution. In my opinion, the best approach is a simple corporate tax code with heavy incentives to hire American workers.

    Costs for Walmart consumers will increase substantially if manufacturing is moved from China to the US under the status quo system. However, if we implement a zero percent corporate tax rate for companies which implement such a change, these cost increases should be offset significantly.

    The loss of corporate tax revenue will also be offset by an increase in income tax revenue from American workers.[/QUOTE]

    Lets say in 10 years Ford decides to eliminate 70 percent of their American workers by implimenting new technology. What would be the appropriate government punishment?

    I have a home in Arizona, China has reduced the price of solar panels to the point where they are affordable. We have 100,000 new jobs installing panels on homes. What's the appropriate punishment for those companies who make the panels in China. What does that tax punishment do to those instalation jobs?

    Lets say Wallmart decides to make underwear in the US because the tax on the imported underwear makes it to expensive. What's to stop Wallmart from overcharging for underwear now that the government has shut out most of the low cost producers from the market through a subsidy scheme?
    Last edited by Winstonbiggs; 05-02-2012 at 05:25 PM.

  4. #44
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    [QUOTE=parafly;4457859]I agree it's a serious problem, and there is no easy solution. In my opinion, the best approach is a simple corporate tax code with heavy incentives to hire American workers.

    [B]THIS in my experience will NOT work. Example..the current code calls for credits to hire veterans. I have seen NO movement amongst my clients to hire vets for the credit. They will ALWAYS hire the most qualified/cost effective person whether he is a vet or not.[/B]

    Costs for Walmart consumers will increase substantially if manufacturing is moved from China to the US under the status quo system. However, if we implement a zero percent corporate tax rate for companies which implement such a change, these cost increases should be offset significantly.
    [B]
    Great in theory but who will build these facilities here in the US? No one IMO. BMW and Toyota have done this but were drawn for different reasons. Heavy tax incentives by the state, no unions in the south and most important, shorten the supply chain to the customer. [/B]

    The loss of corporate tax revenue will also be offset by an increase in income tax revenue from American workers.[/QUOTE]
    [B]
    In theory great... not sure it can work but the idea is worthy. IMO.[/B]

  5. #45
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    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;4457867]Lets say in 10 years Ford decides to eliminate 70 percent of their American workers by implimenting new technology. What would be the appropriate government punishment?[/QUOTE]

    Irrelevant. The tax rate would be determined by human workforce thresholds.

    [QUOTE]I have a home in Arizona, China has reduced the price of solar panels to the point where they are affordable. We have 100,000 new jobs installing panels on homes. What's the appropriate punishment for those companies who make the panels in China. What does that tax punishment do to those instalation jobs?[/QUOTE]

    This isn't a newly introduced issue, it's very much a reality in the current system.

    [QUOTE]Lets say Wallmart decides to make underwear in the US because the tax on the imported underwear makes it to expensive. What's to stop Wallmart from overcharging for underwear now that the government has shut out most of the low cost producers from the market through a subsidy scheme?[/QUOTE]

    The free market. If Walmart overcharges for underwear, consumers will buy underwear from their competitors.

  6. #46
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    [QUOTE=southparkcpa;4457871][B]In theory great... not sure it can work but the idea is worthy. IMO.[/B][/QUOTE]

    What are the veteran hiring credits? I'm sure the country would see a big spike in veteran hiring if the incentive was a zero percent tax rate.

    If the demand is there, the facilities will be built.

    I agree that state tax incentives could play a role as well, but we are discussing federal tax rates and policy specifically.

    Unions are a completely separate topic, but do have an effect on the situation. Union or no union, we are looking at the dangers of a truly global economy with huge global workforce. Let's start with ironing out the basics.

  7. #47
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    [QUOTE=parafly;4457893]Irrelevant. The tax rate would be determined by human workforce thresholds.



    This isn't a newly introduced issue, it's very much a reality in the current system.



    The free market. If Walmart overcharges for underwear, consumers will buy underwear from their competitors.[/QUOTE]

    The market is no longer free you have used a tax scheme to shut out a majority of the manufacturers by driving people out of the market through protection. Presumably new start up's in the US would have limited competition and a tax advantage to keep prices high. Why else would they move production here?

    The same is true of the panels. Also why wouldn't other countries attack US trade by doing the same thing. US manufacturing is doing great right now because of exports.

    Trade wars would not be good for US manufacturing or consumers.

    Lowering taxes for US companies would make us more competitive doing business everywhere in the world and that would be good for employment.

  8. #48
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    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;4457946]The market is no longer free you have used a tax scheme to shut out a majority of the manufacturers by driving people out of the market through protection. Presumably new start up's in the US would have limited competition and a tax advantage to keep prices high. Why else would they move production here?

    The same is true of the panels. Also why wouldn't other countries attack US trade by doing the same thing. US manufacturing is doing great right now because of exports.

    Trade wars would not be good for US manufacturing or consumers.

    Lowering taxes for US companies would make us more competitive doing business everywhere in the world and that would be good for employment.[/QUOTE]

    Logic and reality vs knee jerk and feelings. Your last 2 posts are spot on WB!

    "Protecting" American jobs in such a manner will only raise prices and reduce American buying power. If I was one of the companies that is targeted I would just move ALL operations off shore. No more American operations means I don't have to comply but I can still sell in America. Protectionism never works in the way it is intended.

    You can't force the market to do what you want. The best thing you can do is make doing business in America better than doing business elsewhere. Lower corporate taxes, educated workforce, reduce or at least simplify regulations. The 1000s of pages of regulations that companies have to keep up with, understand and comply with yearly are very prohibitive to start ups. Legislation like Obamacare that is 1000 pages and has arbitrary requirements for companies such as the 1700 entries that state, this will be determined by a board later, are prohibitive and punitive to business growth.

    Now a bunch of you are talking about "Pro-American Global Affirmative Action" supported by the US corporate Tax code? You don't see how that would force businesses off shore or that companies would then seek loopholes in the new tax law? Less taxes & less needless/make work regulation is the only thing that will bring jobs back to America.

  9. #49
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    I continue to support what I've always supported re: taxation.

    A flat-rate equality-based personal/individual income tax. Every person pays the same % of their income to the state, as low a % as possible. Exception is granted only to those below an accurate and meaningful poverty-line. This tax rate would have no maximum threshold. $1 over the poverty line, or $1 Trillion in personal income, you still pay the full flat-rate %.

    Business would not be taxed at all. Revenue re-invested into the company is a good thing, and some taxes would be generated by the the company buying things (sales taxs). Once any of the companies revenue is distributed to an individual, in any form, salary, bonus, stock dividend, etc, it is then taxed at the flat rate above.

    I would eliminate all tax "breaks" for individuals, as it is my belief that taxation should not be a tool for Govt. directed social engineering or decision making. That is a right I believe the individual has, to do as they choose in their persuit of happiness, not to do as they must according tot he State to get tax breaks and abdicate their sociatal responsabillity of tax payments.

    I would also unify Federal taxation, no more multiple taxes. One tax rate only, all funds go to a Federal General Fund, to be spent per a legally mandated Federal Budget (no more endless cntinuing resolutions, budgets must be passed by Congress every year, in advance, and with full and straitforward disclosure to the American Citizenry).

    Fair, simple, equal. The tax rate would be set by Congress every year as part of the budget passing process, in a "must vote" process (no passing on voting), sperate but related to the passing of the overall budget. The rate would be set to meet the current needs of the country as deemed by our elected leadership, and the people would have their voice on if they agree to the level of need/spending via our elections.

  10. #50
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    So reduce corporate taxes across the board, reduce regulations, and hope for the best?

    I think some of you are very naive to the prospects of billions of low income foreign workers entering the global job market in the coming decades and its effects on our wages and standards of living.

  11. #51
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    [QUOTE=parafly;4458537]So reduce corporate taxes across the board, reduce regulations, and hope for the best?

    I think some of you are very naive to the prospects of billions of low income foreign workers entering the global job market in the coming decades and its effects on our wages and standards of living.[/QUOTE]

    No offense but, I think you are naive to think that trying to force companies to use American labor would do anything but reduce the number of companies in America, create more loop holes and make it even harder for a company to start new business in the country.

  12. #52
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    [QUOTE=Warfish;4458520]I continue to support what I've always supported re: taxation.

    A flat-rate equality-based personal/individual income tax. Every person pays the same % of their income to the state, as low a % as possible. Exception is granted only to those below an accurate and meaningful poverty-line. This tax rate would have no maximum threshold. $1 over the poverty line, or $1 Trillion in personal income, you still pay the full flat-rate %.

    Business would not be taxed at all. Revenue re-invested into the company is a good thing, and some taxes would be generated by the the company buying things (sales taxs). Once any of the companies revenue is distributed to an individual, in any form, salary, bonus, stock dividend, etc, it is then taxed at the flat rate above.

    I would eliminate all tax "breaks" for individuals, as it is my belief that taxation should not be a tool for Govt. directed social engineering or decision making. That is a right I believe the individual has, to do as they choose in their persuit of happiness, not to do as they must according tot he State to get tax breaks and abdicate their sociatal responsabillity of tax payments.

    I would also unify Federal taxation, no more multiple taxes. One tax rate only, all funds go to a Federal General Fund, to be spent per a legally mandated Federal Budget (no more endless cntinuing resolutions, budgets must be passed by Congress every year, in advance, and with full and straitforward disclosure to the American Citizenry).

    Fair, simple, equal. The tax rate would be set by Congress every year as part of the budget passing process, in a "must vote" process (no passing on voting), sperate but related to the passing of the overall budget. The rate would be set to meet the current needs of the country as deemed by our elected leadership, and the people would have their voice on if they agree to the level of need/spending via our elections.[/QUOTE]

    Is there a particular reason you choose income tax over sales tax? Most "flat tax" proponents today favor the sales tax.

    Also, when you say "unify federal taxation" does that include fees? Fines? Will the federal government have any other revenue raising mechanism other than income tax?

    What is "income"? Is an inheritance income? Is a gift income?

    How do you handle situations where the corporation and individual muddy together? There is an obscene amount of tax code governing this right now. If i'm a contractor and buy a truck for both work and personal use, how does that work? Can i depreciate it, or does that count as a deduction?

  13. #53
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    [QUOTE=Trades;4458576]No offense but, I think you are naive to think that trying to force companies to use American labor would do anything but reduce the number of companies in America, create more loop holes and make it even harder for a company to start new business in the country.[/QUOTE]

    Not forcing anything, just giving a little incentive to do so. If you want to hire all Chinese, go for it, you just won't get the zero percent tax rate.

    How would you reduce the number of American companies if corporate tax rate is reduced from 35% to something like 15% ... and all the way down to 0% if you meet certain American hiring and wage standards?

  14. #54
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    [QUOTE=parafly;4458602]Not forcing anything, just giving a little incentive to do so. If you want to hire all Chinese, go for it, you just won't get the zero percent tax rate.[/quote]

    Well if it's a 100% tax rate for hiring all Chinese, you're being "forced", yes?

    70%? Probable.. 50%?

    This gets subjective pretty quick, no?

    [QUOTE=parafly;4458602]

    How would you reduce the number of American companies if corporate tax rate is reduced from 35% to something like 15% ... and all the way down to 0% if you meet certain American hiring and wage standards?[/QUOTE]

    I think you'd likely create an "in or out" system, where companies would pull stakes and go over seas, or make sure to hit all their "0% tax, true American company" requirements.

    I'm not sure if you end up with more or less American companies... but my Television would be a hell of a lot more expensive.

  15. #55
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    For the life of me, I cannot see how reducing the corporate tax rate from the current 35% down to 15% is going to drive companies out of America.

    What am I missing here?

  16. #56
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    [QUOTE=Axil;4458600]Is there a particular reason you choose income tax over sales tax? Most "flat tax" proponents today favor the sales tax.[/quote]

    I prefer a universal income tax to a consumption tax. In my perfect (real) world, there are only three taxes: Federal Income (Flat Tax), State Income (Whatever State Wants) and State Sales Tax (also whatever State chooses). Every person in the U.S. pays the Federal Flat Tax (poor excluded), and can choose their State based on their income/sales tax as they wish (States Rights).

    [QUOTE]Also, when you say "unify federal taxation" does that include fees? Fines? Will the federal government have any other revenue raising mechanism other than income tax?[/QUOTE]

    I do not support Fines or Fees being part of taxation. Fines and Fees are inherantly either a penalty for wrongdoing (fine) or a charge for some service (fee). Both needlessly complicate the taxation system. Fines should be outside taxation (i.e. a criminal/civil proceeding/judgement) and fees should be outright abandoned. Taxe Revenue should make Federal/State fees unneeded in an equal sociaty under a flat tax system.

    [QUOTE]What is "income"? Is an inheritance income? Is a gift income?[/QUOTE]

    Any money or monetary equivalent you receive from anyone for any reason that was not your property to begin with.

    [QUOTE]How do you handle situations where the corporation and individual muddy together?[/QUOTE]

    Change the Law (as needed) so there is no "muddling". The Business is the business, the Individual is teh Individual. At whatever point the individual takes monetary value from the business, it is then taxed. The IRS would continue to exist for purposes such as this, to ensure proper accounting.

    [QUOTE]If i'm a contractor and buy a truck for both work and personal use, how does that work?[/QUOTE]

    We're getting into regulatroy specificity here, where there is much room to compromise (even under a flat tax system), but I would say that if the vehicle does more than 50% of it's milage for the business, then it's the business's, if not, it's personal and income and would be taxed as income.

    [quote]Can i depreciate it, or does that count as a deduction?[/QUOTE]

    Irrelvant as I see it when it comes to taxation. You/the Business pay the tax on it in full at the time of purchase (sales tax).

    If (as above) the business you own buys it for you (an individual) for personal use, you pay the full income tax value for it for the year of purchase.

  17. #57
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    [QUOTE=parafly;4458611]For the life of me, I cannot see how reducing the corporate tax rate from the current 35% down to 15% is going to drive companies out of America.

    What am I missing here?[/QUOTE]

    It is the cost of meeting your arbitrary hire-American requirements. There are many potential issues.

    1 is that it could be a sliding scale. Today you have to have 40% of your work force in America, next year after unemployment doesn't drop 60%. How do you plan for that?

    Second just like Obamacare do friends of the current regime get waivers? I can easily see that happening.

    Third if 50% of my workforce has to be American to qualify for a 10% tax cut and the salaries of those 50% plus the decreased American taxes is greater than the cost of labor + taxes elsewhere why would I stay here?

    Those are the thoughts off the top of my head. I am sure there would be many other unintended consequences.

  18. #58
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    Another thing. Is it based on % of total corporate workforce or % of salary paid? If the former then you just bring as many minimum wage jobs to the states if the latter then you just have your executives and engineers here which would do nothing for the poor. Either way someone loses in America. Also the consumer will end up paying the price at the register for any increases in cost of doing business.


    This is similar to the people that say well if the poor need more money just raise minimum wage. They don't realize that the number of people working and the wage they get paid has to do with the value that person/position brings to the company. If you make minimum wage $20/hr you reduce the amount of money available for low value jobs. Instead of hiring 2 people for $10/hr giving them a job, getting them experience in the work force and the potential to learn and move up you are putting that money into 1 person who will have to do more work while the other guy is on unemployment.

  19. #59
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    [QUOTE=Trades;4458623]It is the cost of meeting your arbitrary hire-American requirements. There are many potential issues.

    1 is that it could be a sliding scale. Today you have to have 40% of your work force in America, next year after unemployment doesn't drop 60%. How do you plan for that?

    Second just like Obamacare do friends of the current regime get waivers? I can easily see that happening.

    Third if 50% of my workforce has to be American to qualify for a 10% tax cut and the salaries of those 50% plus the decreased American taxes is greater than the cost of labor + taxes elsewhere why would I stay here?

    Those are the thoughts off the top of my head. I am sure there would be many other unintended consequences.[/QUOTE]

    Taxation is not the appropriate location for policies of protectionism or job growth. Taxation exists only to generate revenue, as fairly as possible, from the populcae to pay for the operations and services of the Government.

    If protectionist policies are needed to support domestic employment, that can be handled via tariffs in the inport/export portion of international trade, the most appropriate place for such policies and where such policies can be directly most accurately and sugicly to support industries or sectors of specific need.

  20. #60
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    [QUOTE=Trades;4458623]It is the cost of meeting your arbitrary hire-American requirements. There are many potential issues.

    1 is that it could be a sliding scale. Today you have to have 40% of your work force in America, next year after unemployment doesn't drop 60%. How do you plan for that?

    Second just like Obamacare do friends of the current regime get waivers? I can easily see that happening.

    Third if 50% of my workforce has to be American to qualify for a 10% tax cut and the salaries of those 50% plus the decreased American taxes is greater than the cost of labor + taxes elsewhere why would I stay here?

    Those are the thoughts off the top of my head. I am sure there would be many other unintended consequences.[/QUOTE]

    I agree some valid concerns, but most of these already apply today in the status quo system.

    If you want to run your business the exact same way as today, the only difference is 35% with thousands of pages of deductions and loopholes down to a flat 15% with no deductions or loopholes. By most accounts, pretty much a wash, if not a little lower effective tax rates.

    The only difference is the benefit of zero percent corporate tax rate if you meet certain American worker thresholds. Don't meet them, pay your 15% which is very competitive with the rest of the world.

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