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Thread: Socialist Party Leader Hollande Wins in France

  1. #1
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    Socialist Party Leader Hollande Wins in France

    On the following familiar policy platform:

    On 26 January he outlined a full list of policies in a manifesto containing 60 propositions, including the separation of retail activities from riskier investment-banking businesses; raising taxes on the wealthy (to 75%+) and for big corporations and banks; creating 60,000 teaching jobs; bringing the official retirement age back down to 60 from 62; creating subsidised jobs in areas of high unemployment for the young; promoting more industry in France by creating a public investment bank; granting marriage and adoption rights to same-sex couples; and pulling French troops out of Afghanistan in 2012. He is famous for having said (paraphrasign here) "austerity is off the table", and being a strong supporter of Spend-Your-Way-Out-of-Recession economic policies.

    President Obama is running in 2012 on a very similar policy platform, point by point. In what ways does the politics of the Socialist Hollande differ from the Democrat Obama, and where else may there be similarities?

    I continue to wonder, is it just an issue of "unpopular teminology" that stops liberals from self-identifying as Socialists as Europe defines them? If the word "Socialist" polled better in the U.S., would the Democrat party describe itself as such, given the very similar policy views of American liberals and Europeans Socialists and Social Welfare Statists?

    Please note, I'm not making a policy judgement here. I'm more interested in the terminology divide, and how a word in Europe can carry no stigma but here seems to be hidden (if supported) or used as a cudgel (if against it) in American politics.
    Last edited by Warfish; 05-07-2012 at 10:04 AM.

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    How are those goals even sustainable with precarious situation in Europe? Angela Merkel must be ready to kill herself.

    France: the next Greece. A heartfelt Good Luck to Raoul.

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    lol - the Germans will [B]NOT [/B]be pleased.

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    BRICS looks like they may have a winner here with Hollande. Could get ugly, fast

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    [QUOTE=Warfish;4461669]On the following familiar policy platform:

    On 26 January he outlined a full list of policies in a manifesto containing 60 propositions, including the separation of retail activities from riskier investment-banking businesses; raising taxes on the wealthy (to 75%+) and for big corporations and banks; creating 60,000 teaching jobs; bringing the official retirement age back down to 60 from 62; creating subsidised jobs in areas of high unemployment for the young; promoting more industry in France by creating a public investment bank; granting marriage and adoption rights to same-sex couples; and pulling French troops out of Afghanistan in 2012. He is famous for having said (paraphrasign here) "austerity is off the table", and being a strong supporter of Spend-Your-Way-Out-of-Recession economic policies.

    President Obama is running in 2012 on a very similar policy platform, point by point. In what ways does the politics of the Socialist Hollande differ from the Democrat Obama, and where else may there be similarities?

    I continue to wonder, is it just an issue of "unpopular teminology" that stops liberals from self-identifying as Socialists as Europe defines them? If the word "Socialist" polled better in the U.S., would the Democrat party describe itself as such, given the very similar policy views of American liberals and Europeans Socialists and Social Welfare Statists?

    Please note, I'm not making a policy judgement here. I'm more interested in the terminology divide, and how a word in Europe can carry no stigma but here seems to be hidden (if supported) or used as a cudgel (if against it) in American politics.[/QUOTE]

    I disagree with the premise that won because of those policy points.

    Most French voted for him be cause he wasn't Sarkozy.

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    [QUOTE=FF2;4462041]I disagree with the premise that won because of those policy points.[/QUOTE]

    That fine, except I didn't make any such claim for you to disagree with.

    I stated he won (which he did), and these are his policy positions (which they are), and pointed out their similarity to current Democrat policy positions (whcih they are, generally), then raised a question (i.e. the topic) on terminology and language in politics.

    Saying "he won, and these are his policies and..." is not saying "he won because of these policies and...".

    [quote]Most French voted for him be cause he wasn't Sarkozy.[/QUOTE]

    Sounds like the U.S. circa 2008, when Obama was the "not Bush" candidate. Of course in hindsight, it's interesting to see how Bush Obama actually turned out to be on the issues that most directly led to the "not Bush" backlash, i.e. civil liberties, millitary, spending, etc.

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    [QUOTE=Warfish;4462048]That fine, except I didn't make any such claim for you to disagree with.

    I stated he won (which he did), and these are his policy positions (which they are), and pointed out their similarity to current Democrat policy positions (whcih they are, generally), then raised a question (i.e. the topic) on terminology and language in politics.

    Saying "he won, and these are his policies and..." is not saying "he won because of these policies and...".



    Sounds like the U.S. circa 2008, when Obama was the "not Bush" candidate. Of course in hindsight, it's interesting to see how Bush Obama actually turned out to be on the issues that most directly led to the "not Bush" backlash, i.e. civil liberties, millitary, spending, etc.[/QUOTE]

    There is no difference between today's Democratic party and the Socialist parties of Europe. You are correct in that the word Socialist seems to carry a negative connotation in America and as such they refer to themselves as Progressives. Same ****e different stink.

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    Yes.

    Democrats are socialists.

    And Republicans are Theologians who want to impose a theocracy on America.






    That was fun.

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    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan;4462064]Yes.

    Democrats are socialists.

    And Republicans are Theologians who want to impose a theocracy on America.






    That was fun.[/QUOTE]

    No, that was trolling.

    By all means, if you have a recently elected Theologian Party member in some other Democracy whose policy positions mirror that of current U.S. Republicans, you should post it, so we can read it.

    Then we can have a good discussion about the similarities of Republicans to Theologians.

    However, here in this thread, we have a rather clear cut case of public policy positions made by self-described Socialists in France, and similar policy positions of Democrats (including our President) in the U.S.

    Do you not agree? Do you think asking the question is bad in some way? I think dicussion of the terminology our leaders choose to use is important to understand myself, as language is the greatest tool for both enlightenment and manipulation of the masses we have. I'm not supporting or denouncing the policies themselves, I'm asking why the use of terminology is so different, and why the American people may be the core cause behind that difference. Why would American voters support Socialist policy, but denounce the word Socialist?

    I do apologize if you think this topic is unworthy.

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    [QUOTE=Warfish;4461669]President Obama is running in 2012 on a very similar policy platform, point by point.[/QUOTE]

    Please explain. I see many more differences than similarities to be quite honest.

    [QUOTE]the separation of retail activities from riskier investment-banking businesses[/QUOTE]

    Tough to comment without more details.

    [QUOTE]raising taxes on the wealthy (to 75%+) and for big corporations and banks[/QUOTE]

    Obama wants to impose the Buffet rule which slightly raises effective tax rates on the richest of the rich. Marginal tax rates have not gone up one bit under Obama, let alone anything even close to 75%.

    [QUOTE]creating 60,000 teaching jobs[/QUOTE]

    True, they both want more teaching jobs.

    [QUOTE]bringing the official retirement age back down to 60 from 62[/QUOTE]

    I have not heard or seen Obama's position on this topic. Any time retirement age is brought up (by right or left), it's always about raising the age, not lowering it.

    [QUOTE]creating subsidised jobs in areas of high unemployment for the young[/QUOTE]

    This seems like a form of unemployment benefits reform, and something I would support. Obama has not instituted anything of this nature.

    [QUOTE]promoting more industry in France by creating a public investment bank[/QUOTE]

    This seems like a form of the Fed, Fanny and Freddy, etc. This is something that has been in place for a very long time in this country and can be attributed to the policies of both parties.

    [QUOTE]granting marriage and adoption rights to same-sex couples[/QUOTE]

    Obama is against gay marriage.

    [QUOTE]pulling French troops out of Afghanistan in 2012.[/QUOTE]

    The U.S. has doubled down on troops in Afghanistan under Obama, and they are not leaving for the foreseeable future.

    So other than the fictional character version of Obama which the hardcore right has manufactured over the past four years, how exactly is Obama "very similar point by point?" Honest question, I seriously don't see it at all.

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    [QUOTE=Warfish;4461669]On the following familiar policy platform:

    On 26 January he outlined a full list of policies in a manifesto containing 60 propositions, including the separation of retail activities from riskier investment-banking businesses; raising taxes on the wealthy (to 75%+) and for big corporations and banks; creating 60,000 teaching jobs; bringing the official retirement age back down to 60 from 62; creating subsidised jobs in areas of high unemployment for the young; promoting more industry in France by creating a public investment bank; granting marriage and adoption rights to same-sex couples; and pulling French troops out of Afghanistan in 2012. He is famous for having said (paraphrasign here) "austerity is off the table", and being a strong supporter of Spend-Your-Way-Out-of-Recession economic policies.

    President Obama is running in 2012 on a very similar policy platform, point by point. In what ways does the politics of the Socialist Hollande differ from the Democrat Obama, and where else may there be similarities?

    I continue to wonder, is it just an issue of "unpopular teminology" that stops liberals from self-identifying as Socialists as Europe defines them? If the word "Socialist" polled better in the U.S., would the Democrat party describe itself as such, given the very similar policy views of American liberals and Europeans Socialists and Social Welfare Statists?

    Please note, I'm not making a policy judgement here. I'm more interested in the terminology divide, and how a word in Europe can carry no stigma but here seems to be hidden (if supported) or used as a cudgel (if against it) in American politics.[/QUOTE]


    Simple, dating back to Red Scare and McCarthyism days, the words "communism" and "socialism" have been burned into everyone's brains as un-american. Even the libs who love these identical policies know they have to re-brand it here. It's just PR and messaging. If it worked and produced more votes here, they'd use the word "socialism" .

  12. #12
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    [QUOTE=parafly;4462092]Please explain. I see many more differences than similarities to be quite honest.

    So other than the fictional character version of Obama which the hardcore right has manufactured over the past four years, how exactly is Obama "very similar point by point?" Honest question, I seriously don't see it at all.[/QUOTE]

    Ok, guess you don't see it then para, thanks for your honest contribution.

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    [QUOTE=Warfish;4462070]Do you not agree?[/QUOTE]

    I do not.

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    [QUOTE=Warfish;4462143]Ok, guess you don't see it then para, thanks for your honest contribution.[/QUOTE]

    So nothing to back up your "very similar point by point" claim?

    I don't disagree with a general "socialist" point. This country has been actively practicing socialism since the 1930's, and it has been implemented and furthered by both parties.

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    [QUOTE=parafly;4462158]This country has been actively practicing socialism since the 1930's, and it has been implemented and furthered by both parties.[/QUOTE]

    Just ask them about how Reagan implemented the largest, and still ongoing, affordable housing program handout to low-income, welfare recipients that the country has seen.

    <insert crickets here>

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    [QUOTE=PlumberKhan;4462175]Just ask them about how Reagan implemented the largest, and still ongoing, affordable housing program handout to low-income, welfare recipients that the country has seen.

    <insert crickets here>[/QUOTE]

    ?
    which is?

    [SIZE=1]please please please don't let it be the drugs talking to us again[/SIZE]

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    [QUOTE=Warfish;4462048]That fine, except I didn't make any such claim for you to disagree with.

    I stated he won (which he did), and these are his policy positions (which they are), and pointed out their similarity to current Democrat policy positions (whcih they are, generally), then raised a question (i.e. the topic) on terminology and language in politics.

    Saying "he won, and these are his policies and..." is not saying "he won because of these policies.[/QUOTE]

    You said he won "on" those policies, certainly you were making a connection, why else mention them?

    Then you cherry picked a few issues making it seem as if he was similar to Obama, which he is not.

    The entire premise is deeply flawed.

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    [QUOTE=Bonhomme Richard;4461680]How are those goals even sustainable with precarious situation in Europe? Angela Merkel must be ready to kill herself.

    France: the next Greece. A heartfelt Good Luck to Raoul.[/QUOTE]



    France has industry and a population of 65 million

    Greece has little industry and a population of 11 million

    How are they the same?

  19. #19
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    [QUOTE=Jungle Shift Jet;4462182]?
    which is?

    [SIZE=1]please please please don't let it be the drugs talking to us again[/SIZE][/QUOTE]

    Tax reform act of 1986. Specifically the Low Income Housing Tax Credit Program.

    Read up. Once you get wifi at your cabin... :)


    Sent from my Double-Wide using Semaphore...

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    [QUOTE=Buster;4462217]France has industry and a population of 65 million

    Greece has little industry and a population of 11 million

    How are they the same?[/QUOTE]

    They both are dependent on others to lend them the money they need to spend more rather than simply redistributing a shrinking pie. Like Greece, France can’t print Euro’s either.
    Last edited by Winstonbiggs; 05-07-2012 at 08:25 PM.

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