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Thread: MAN vs ZONE BLOCKING

  1. #1

    MAN vs ZONE BLOCKING

    I really enjoyed the 3-4/4-3 thread -- for the most part it actually stayed football-related, and a lot of good points were brought up (especially for those of us who don't know a one-gap from a two-gap:O)

    Unfortunately, football threads seem to be in the minority right now, so I'm hoping this could be the start of another one.

    If I understand correctly, Sparano will be using a man-blocking scheme, unlike Callahan's zone scheme. Now, I can relate this to basketball better than football, but I assume the premise is the same -- you go MAN when you feel you can match up well one-on-one with your opponent, and you go ZONE when you want to minimize match-up problems and just be responsible for an area (perhaps I'm wrong already).

    Going with this assumption, I could see someone like Vlad doing better, as we know he can maul the guy in front of him, but would often let people run right past him as he "patrolled his zone". I assume it will be easier for him to just find a guy a block him. But does this translate to the rest of the OLine? When I think of Mangold/Brick, I think of high intellegence guys more than physically dominant. Do you feel our entire line should benefit from the switch, or do you think it's more to assist our weaker links (Vlad/Hunter)?

    And since it's VERY possible my entire premise is wrong, feel free to enlighten me about the difference in the schemes themselves, as well as if you think it's going to be a good/bad move . . .

  2. #2
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    [QUOTE=OCCH;4466797]I really enjoyed the 3-4/4-3 thread -- for the most part it actually stayed football-related, and a lot of good points were brought up (especially for those of us who don't know a one-gap from a two-gap:O)

    Unfortunately, football threads seem to be in the minority right now, so I'm hoping this could be the start of another one.

    If I understand correctly, Sparano will be using a man-blocking scheme, unlike Callahan's zone scheme. Now, I can relate this to basketball better than football, but I assume the premise is the same -- you go MAN when you feel you can match up well one-on-one with your opponent, and you go ZONE when you want to minimize match-up problems and just be responsible for an area (perhaps I'm wrong already).

    Going with this assumption, I could see someone like Vlad doing better, as we know he can maul the guy in front of him, but would often let people run right past him as he "patrolled his zone". I assume it will be easier for him to just find a guy a block him. But does this translate to the rest of the OLine? When I think of Mangold/Brick, I think of high intellegence guys more than physically dominant. Do you feel our entire line should benefit from the switch, or do you think it's more to assist our weaker links (Vlad/Hunter)?

    And since it's VERY possible my entire premise is wrong, feel free to enlighten me about the difference in the schemes themselves, as well as if you think it's going to be a good/bad move . . .[/QUOTE]

    Here's an old article about comparing the two in regard to what The Broncos have done in the past:

    [URL="http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2005/zone-blocking-vs-man-blocking"]http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2005/zone-blocking-vs-man-blocking[/URL]

    [B]Zone Blocking vs. Man Blocking[/B]
    Guest Column by Brian Hook
    As TMQ often says, Denver's helmets should have a label that says "Insert running back, gain 1000 yards". So many Denver running backs have been accused of benefiting from "the Denver system" that we thought it would be a good idea to see what correlation might exist between the Denver "one-cut" zone-blocking scheme and overall running back success.
    To gauge that we needed to trawl the archives for running backs that have gone from one system to the other. Unfortunately, this isn't as easy as it sounds.
    Denver running backs seem to remain Denver running backs for life -- possibly because they have a nasty habit of suffering devastating injuries while a Bronco. Terrell Davis, Mike Anderson, Olandis Gary, Reuben Droughns, Quentin Griffin, and Tatum Bell have had almost all of their career carries as Broncos. The only player in recent memory that has gone from Denver to another team and achieved significant carries in both locations is Clinton Portis.
    However, as luck would have it, some teams have recently transitioned to a zone-blocking scheme. Houston hired Joe Pendry as offensive line coach and installed a zone-blocking scheme for Domanick Davis between 2003 and 2004. Atlanta also saw a similar transition, this time by bringing in the godfather of the zone blocking scheme, Alex Gibbs, whom many a defensive player can thank for a career or season ending lower leg injury.
    So this gives us four players to work with: Clinton Portis (Denver and Washington); TJ Duckett and Warrick Dunn (Atlanta); and Domanick Davis (Houston).
    ZONE BLOCKING
    For those of you unfamiliar with the Denver offensive line scheme, they use a technique known as "zone blocking". In a "man" or "drive" blocking scheme the lineman is responsible for an individual, and the play is designed for a running back to hit a particular gap. The zone blocking scheme, on the other hand, has a lineman blocking an area instead of a designated defensive player. If multiple linemen are blocking an area than one can break off and block into the second level.
    The offensive line typically moves as a unit laterally, and the result of their blocks should create some natural seams or gaps in the defensive formation. The running back is responsible for finding a hole, making a cut, and then running upfield. One of the key tenets of the Denver system is that the running back takes what he can get -- he should never dance around waiting for a hole to open. He needs to be agile, authoritative, and possess good instincts. Nothing fancy, just try to gain positive yardage.
    A final element of the zone blocking scheme is the use of the much hated cut block to seal off backside pursuit. This means that any linemen on the backside of the play cut block defensive players in front of them, which drops the defensive players to the turf and, oddly enough, opens up holes for the running back. Note that the cut block is legal in this case, as long as the offensive lineman isn't hitting the defender from behind and as long as he doesn't roll up on his legs. But hitting him below the knees near the line of scrimmage is fair game, as much as the NFLPA doesn't want it to be.
    Obviously getting defenders on the ground is one benefit of the cut block, but an intangible benefit is that defenders start worrying about their knees and ankles. They lose a bit of their aggression and speed since they're paranoid that some lineman is going to creep up on them and take out their legs. This has the benefit of slowing down the entire defense.
    For the record, Joe Pendry claims that his zone blocking scheme doesn't rely on cut blocks. Given Davis's performance, he might want to reconsider that stance.
    CONFOUNDING VARIABLES
    Before we start looking at the data, let's go ahead and establish up front that nothing we've discovered is conclusive. We're dealing with very limited sample data and a huge number of confounding variables. Portis had to deal with moving to a run-heavy offense with a passing game as threatening as a sleeping infant. In addition, Washington's starting right tackle (Jon Jansen) was lost at the start of the season. And, finally, Portis casually mentioned that he had been suffering from a shoulder injury he didn't want to "bother" the trainers about during the season.
    While Atlanta managed to keep its personnel relatively intact, they turned over their entire coaching staff and installed brand new offensive and defensive schemes. In addition Dunn and Duckett flip flopped roles as primary ball carrier -- in 2003 Duckett was the workhorse but in 2004 that title moved to, well, Mike Vick, but for the sake of this article, we'll just note that Dunn had more carries than Duckett in 2004, a reversal from 2003.
    One final note before we get to the analysis: we're not trying to analyze effectiveness (a la DPAR, DVOA, or Success Rate), we're instead trying to get a feel of the "nature" of their carries. Are they getting stuffed more often? Are they breaking off fewer or more long runs? Standard metrics such as yards/carry or standard deviation have a hard time telling us about the style of a runner, but an analysis of the distribution of their runs gives us a pretty good idea.
    THE ANALYSIS
    We took the running play information from 2003 and 2004 for Davis, Portis, Dunn, and Duckett and sorted the runs into buckets. These buckets were:
    0 or fewer yards ("stuffs")
    1-3 yards ("short runs")
    4-9 yards ("good runs")
    10+ yards ("long runs")
    Discounting situational success, the first two buckets are "bad" runs and the second two buckets are "good" runs. We then graphed the results for each back comparing the frequency of runs within each category between zone and man blocking schemes. The results were inconsistent but still interesting.
    Now, without looking at any real numbers, I think the graphs tell us a lot about each runner. Let's take a look at TJ Duckett first:

    Duckett clearly improved with the zone running scheme. In fact, that he had more runs for 4-9 yards than for 1-3 yards is impressive. In 2004 he almost halved the number of stuffs he suffered, he had a far greater percentage of "good" runs, but his 10+ yard frequency stayed about the same.
    In other words, he isn't a big play back, but in the zone scheme he was a lot more dependable for getting good, solid carries. Basically that distribution is exactly what you want from most running backs -- get me at least 4 yards over half the time. It is not a coincidence that he has the second best RB Success Rate of backs in 2004 (up from #20 in 2003). (RB Success Rate explained here.)
    Of course, other factors are at play as well -- he wasn't asked to carry as much and it he was used very differently. In 2003 over 65% of his carries were on 1st down, whereas in 2004 less than 50% of his carries were on 1st down.
    Then we have his teammate, Warrick Dunn, who went through his own changes:

    The graph basically says "In 2004, Dunn was far more likely to get you positive yardage, but less likely to get you GOOD positive yardage".
    Davis, on the other hand, isn't as cut and dry as expected:

    The media have gone on and on about his lower yards/carry this year vs. last year (3.9 vs. 4.3). But the graph indicates that he was more consistent in the zone blocking scheme, i.e. a greater proportion of his runs were between the extremes of "stuffed" and "long run", which means he was stuffed less but also had fewer long runs. The numbers bear this out -- in the zone blocking scheme he had 73.3% of his runs between 1 and 9 yards, but in the man blocking scheme only 64% of his runs were in that range. Visually this is obvious, as is the fact that he had more stuffs and long runs.
    It is possible that the lack of cut-blocking on the backside prevented Davis from breaking out past the 3 yard area and grabbing large chunks of ground.
    Now compare this with Portis:

    The graph there, again, clearly shows the trend difference -- there's a crossover between the "bad" region and the "good" region. In other words, in the man blocking scheme he tended to have more "bad" runs and fewer "good" runs than in the zone blocking scheme. He ran more often for more yards in the zone scheme, however it should be mentioned that Joe Bugel and Joe Gibbs recognized this near the end of the 2004 season and supposedly incorporated more zone blocking type plays, however looking at the overall game summaries I don't immediately see a difference.
    SUMMARY
    With such limited data and with so many confounding variables we can't really draw any strong conclusions about man vs. zone blocking. But there are some interesting observations to be had.
    First, the data seems to indicate that odds of getting stuffed drop with a zone scheme. This makes sense, since in a zone one-cut scheme the running back chooses the hole instead of sticking with the play's pre-selected gap.
    Second, there seems to be no correlation between scheme and the ability to rip off long runs. Davis and Portis had more long runs with zone blocking; Duckett was the same; and Dunn had more in a man scheme.
    Third, it is possible that Davis might have had a better year if Pendry had used cut-blocking to Davis's advantage -- his distribution of runs is similar between the two years with the exception of his lack of long runs.
    The "Denver system" isn't a magical pill that a team can swallow to generate 1500 yard rushers with consistency, but obviously it has been successful for running backs in Denver. One reason it has not been widely adopted is time: it takes time to teach, time to master, and time to get the smaller, more agile offensive linemen that the system requires. If you take zone blocking and try to implement it with 340 pound behemoths, you will probably fail, and for better or for worse, 340 pound behemoths are what you'll find on a typical offensive line in the NFL.
    Brian Hook is an avid football fan and occasional game programmer, having worked on games such as Quake 2 and Quake 3 in his career. He is currently hard at work on a multiplayer football management game. He can be reached at brianhook-at-hookatooka.com. If you have an idea for a guest column, something which takes a new look at the NFL, please email aaron-at-footballoutsiders.com.

  3. #3
    So which is better?

  4. #4

    Evolution of outside zone runs turned NY Jets into anomaly in pass-first league

    Published: Thursday, December 31, 2009, 8:28 PM Updated: Friday, January 01, 2010, 11:23 AM

    [URL="http://connect.nj.com/user/mmehta/index.html"][/URL]By[URL="http://connect.nj.com/user/mmehta/index.html"] Manish Mehta/The Star-Ledger [/URL]

    They fool you on every play, baiting the overzealous, embarrassing the overaggressive and slipping through cracks you never knew existed.
    When they do it just right, you look silly.

    The science of zone blocking may not be overly complicated, but the latest addition to the Jets playbook has put Rex Ryan’s team on the precipice of a playoff berth.

    The Jets’ top-ranked rushing attack (166.6 yards per game) has leaned on a design built on offensive linemen blocking areas rather than single defenders as running backs run parallel to the line of scrimmage before choosing a crease to slip through.

    Although the Jets used inside zone-blocking runs — running backs cutting back through open lanes inside the tackles — last season, they have added another dimension that has made all the difference.

    Offensive line coach Bill Callahan’s decision to expand the team’s zone-blocking repertoire this season with more outside zone plays — linemen running as wide as the tight end’s position on the field — has paid dividends in the past two months.

    “In the beginning of the year, we weren’t as good at it,” right guard Brandon Moore said. “We were still getting a feel for it. As we’ve gone along, it’s become our staple.”

    The evolution of outside zone runs during the season has had a tangible effect. Thomas Jones, who admittedly didn’t care for the new wrinkle early on, averaged 3.7 yards per carry in the first five games. After grasping the nuances of outside zone runs, Jones averaged 4.6 yards per carry over the next 10 games.

    “It’s a transition,” said Jones, the league’s fourth-leading rusher (1,324 yards). “Once we (practiced) it and we had some success, that’s when we started to buy into it. Now we’re a zone team.”

    The Jets’ run-heavy offense, which averages a league-high 36.7 attempts per game, is an anomaly in what has become a pass-first league. Eight of the 10 teams that have clinched a playoff spot rank in the Top 10 in passing. The Jets are 30th.

    “As an offensive lineman, it’s a way to impose your will on another team,” Moore said. “The attitude of this team is run the ball and play defense. That’s all I ever asked for. That’s a recipe for a great team.”

    Pro Bowl center Nick Mangold estimated a 50-50 split between zone-blocking and traditional man-blocking runs, but offensive coordinator Brian Schottenheimer has gradually increased his zone calls throughout the season.

    The primary difference with outside zone runs lies in a running back’s wider “landmark,” or ultimate destination, before a decision needs to be made.

    Offensive linemen must be even more in sync since zone designs require more combination blocks. They need to “stay on their track” to fulfill their assignment, Moore said.

    On any given play, running backs are presented with a front-side read, back-side read and “hit it right now” option that requires them to keep it simple: find immediate daylight and burst through a hole.

    According to Jones, the running back moves “sideways,” or parallel to the linemen, who flow in one direction in unison. The secret to the outside-zone style’s success is to let opponents do all the heavy lifting.

    “It’s an illusion,” said Jones, who on Sunday will face the Bengals’ second-ranked rush defense (87.7 ypg), which has allowed only four teams to top 100 yards this season. “Instead of making the defense come to where you want them to go and then blocking them, you let the defense take themselves out of the play and you react. If they over-run it, you cut back. If they stay back, you stay front side.”

    The flexibility of zone schemes allows Jones and rookie Shonn Greene to make more reads. Fullback Tony Richardson, an integral part of the Kansas City Chiefs’ dominant zone-blocking system in the first half of the decade, also helped.

    “There’s not a (pre-determined) hole where if they blitz it or stunt it, it’s closed,” Pro Bowl left guard Alan Faneca said. “The hole may be between the right guard and tackle or it could just be behind the tackle. It gives the running backs a chance to find a way.”

    The scheme also exploits “really fast flowing defenses,” said Greene, who thrived in a zone-blocking scheme at Iowa.

    “Get them running one way,” Greene said, “and then you can cut off that.”
    Callahan plucked elements from successful zone-blocking teams of the past and showed video clips to his linemen in the offseason.

    “We took little pieces from a bunch of different teams and made it into our own,” Mangold said.

    Faneca spent 10 seasons in a big gap-trap, man-blocking system in Pittsburgh before learning to block more at an angle to move guys around and create running lanes rather than simply driving through them straight on. After a brief adjustment period, the unit began to gel. So, the number of zone-blocking calls increased.

    “Once the proof was out there that we were starting to get it,” Faneca said, “that’s when the coaches opened the door a little bit and started getting a little more creative with those packages.”

    [url]http://www.nj.com/jets/index.ssf/2009/12/new_zone_scheme_is_opening_doo.html[/url]

  5. #5
    [B][SIZE=2]Days of ‘bigger and stronger’ on offensive line are gone as Miami Dolphins switch to zone blocking scheme[/SIZE][/B]

    By Ben Volin

    New Dolphins coach [B]Joe Philbin[/B] quickly identified an area of his team on Tuesday that needs to improve in 2012.

    “My feeling as I watched the tape, the offensive line needs to get better if our quarterback position is going to play better, and so that’s going to be a priority,” he said at the NFL owners meetings.

    Philbin, a former offensive line coach in Green Bay and the University of Iowa, won’t just look to improve the Dolphins’ line, which allowed 52 sacks in 2011, third-most in the NFL. He’s going to change the entire approach.

    The Dolphins will be switching to a “zone blocking scheme” this year, which will give the offensive line – and especially the running game – a much different look than in the previous four years under [B]Tony Sparano[/B].

    Gone are the days of “bigger and stronger,” which was the motto of the Dolphins’ power running game under Sparano and [B]Bill Parcells[/B]. That running game, which Parcells rode to great success with the New York Giants in the 1980s, used a “man-to-man” blocking scheme that required a lineman to identify his man before the snap, then use his power to push the defender downfield to create running space.

    For four years, the Dolphins’ criteria for offensive linemen was size and strength: [B]Jake Long[/B] is 6-7, 317; [B]Richie Incognito[/B] 6-3, 324; [B]John Jerry[/B] 6-5, 328; [B]Vernon Carey[/B] is 6-5, 340.

    But the days of big beef on the offensive line are over in Miami. The zone blocking scheme, which Philbin coached for the last eight years in Green Bay and for four years at Iowa before that, instead places greater emphasis on speed and athleticism on the offensive line.

    The concept is fairly simple: In a zone blocking scheme an offensive lineman is responsible for an area of the field instead of a specific man. The offensive line usually flows in the same direction – all five players moving left or right – and relies heavily on double-teams and cut-back blocks on defenders. Offensive linemen have more horizontal movements than just straight down-field.

    The running back, in turn, must be more patient to let the holes develop. The zone blocking scheme generally results in a “one-cut” run for a running back, in which he plants his foot and darts up-field after patiently waiting for his hole to form.

    The zone blocking scheme is common with teams that run the West Coast Offense. It was made famous by [B]Mike Shanahan[/B] and the Denver Broncos in the 1990s, and has taken hold throughout the league. Teams that use the scheme include Washington (where Shanahan now coaches), Houston (whose coach, [B]Gary Kubiak[/B], is a Shanahan disciple), Indianapolis, Philadelphia, Oakland, Carolina, Seattle and Green Bay. The “stretch” play, an outside run made famous by [B]Peyton Manning[/B] and the Colts, will become a staple of the Dolphins’ offense.

    The switch to the new zone blocking scheme is a reason why the Dolphins signed [B]Artis Hicks [/B]in free agency. Hicks, who has started 71 games in his 10-year career, has played exclusively on West Coast Offense teams that utilize zone blocking – Philadelphia under [B]Andy Reid[/B], Minnesota under [B]Brad Childress[/B], Washington under Shanahan and Cleveland under [B]Pat Shurmur[/B] (and [B]Mike Holmgren[/B]).

    And the zone blocking scheme is why the Dolphins re-signed backup running back [B]Steve Slaton[/B]. He saw little action and was mostly ineffective in the Dolphins’ power running game last year, rushing for just 64 yards in three games. But as a rookie in 2008, Slaton rushed for 1,282 yards and nine touchdowns in Kubiak’s zone blocking scheme. Slaton also ran behind zone blocking in college at West Virginia.

    “He’s a guy we think fits our system of running the football very, very well,” Philbin said. “That’s his training. That’s kind of his background in the league, so we really felt he was a good fit schematically.”

    Dolphins center [B]Mike Pouncey[/B], a fantastic athlete who stands 6-5 and 303 pounds and was the team’s first-round pick in 2011, should excel in the zone blocking scheme.

    And if the Dolphins target any offensive linemen in the draft, they will almost certainly come from teams that run “spread” offenses and/or utilize zone blocking – West Virginia, Texas A&M, Michigan, Iowa and Florida State, among them.

    [URL]http://blogs.palmbeachpost.com/thedailydolphin/2012/03/29/days-of-bigger-and-stronger-are-gone-as-miami-dolphins-switch-to-zone-blocking-scheme/[/URL]

  6. #6
    Man, so far the evidence seems to point to the zone scheme -- I'm not sure why we'd let one down year take us away from something that was working so well (unless, as I said, it's all we can do to make guys like Vlad useful) . . .

  7. #7
    [QUOTE=OCCH;4466876]Man, so far the evidence seems to point to the zone scheme -- I'm not sure why we'd let one down year take us away from something that was working so well (unless, as I said, it's all we can do to make guys like Vlad useful) . . .[/QUOTE]

    We're trying to play 1980's football. That's going to be our identity.

  8. #8
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    [QUOTE=OCCH;4466876]Man, so far the evidence seems to point to the zone scheme -- I'm not sure why we'd let one down year take us away from something that was working so well (unless, as I said, it's all we can do to make guys like Vlad useful) . . .[/QUOTE]

    Agreed, zone blocking works, How Wayne Hunter and Vlad suddenly become serviceable in this scheme is beyond me. Dolphins allowed the third most sacks in the league last year, this does not seem like coaching or a scheme that the Jets should emulate.

  9. #9
    [QUOTE=Gangrene;4466888]Agreed, zone blocking works, How Wayne Hunter and Vlad suddenly become serviceable in this scheme is beyond me. Dolphins allowed the third most sacks in the league last year, this does not seem like coaching or a scheme that the Jets should emulate.[/QUOTE]

    oh well, we'll have to wait for the season to find out.

    One thing I'm pretty sure of though, if the Jets record is 8-8 or below and they miss the playoffs, there will be BIG changes in the organization.

  10. #10
    [QUOTE=Gangrene;4466888]Agreed, zone blocking works, How Wayne Hunter and Vlad suddenly become serviceable in this scheme is beyond me. Dolphins allowed the third most sacks in the league last year, this does not seem like coaching or a scheme that the Jets should emulate.[/QUOTE]

    The only thing that is important is finding a blocking scheme that fits the personnel you have. Some players can play in any system and some are better suited to play in one system.

    I don't think the Jets are saying Both Vlad Ducasse and Wayne Hunter will be better simply playing in a different blocking scheme. (will have the same problems) I think they are saying they will be just fine playing in an offensive system that relies more on their strength-run blocking than their weakness pass blocking. Relying heavy on the running game.

    Wayne hunter proved already that he more than capable of being a starting Rt when the offense relies heavy on its running game. As long as the running game successful than there pass blocking deficiency shouldn't come in to play. When the Jets get in known passing situations it probably better to give either one some help .

  11. #11
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    The way i see this ,the Jets coaching staff has decided to run a system that can incorporate the strength of Vlad Ducasse, Hunter and the player they just drafted (Robert Griffin ) who excel at phone booth type blocking.If you combine this with Mangold and Ferguson's ability to pull,you can generate a heavy base going right.

    The Jets are probably going to place the TE either next to Ferguson or on the right side going in motion towards Ferguson .This helps in 2 areas by either strengthening the edge if Ferguson is asked too block his man straight up or cutting off the backside pursuit if Ferguson is pulling making our poor blocking TEs a greater asset.

    This also indicates a serious flaw in the Jets thinking when it comes to the draft.If u are running a zone blocking scheme,why are you drafting players who excel at phone booth type blocking.Ducasse,Griffin and Hunter fit what Sparano does better than what Callahan did.The cowboys OL will fit perfectly with what Callahan prefers.Also,the plow horses that we have in Shonn Greene and Powell and Ganaway,should excel better in this type of blocking scheme since none of em have the quickness to slide plant and explode upfield.Speed and quickness are different things in football.

  12. #12
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    [QUOTE=Tinstar;4467025]The way i see this ,the Jets coaching staff has decided to run a system that can incorporate the strength of Vlad Ducasse, Hunter and the player they just drafted (Robert Griffin ) who excel at phone booth type blocking.If you combine this with Mangold and Ferguson's ability to pull,you can generate a heavy base going right.

    The Jets are probably going to place the TE either next to Ferguson or on the right side going in motion towards Ferguson .This helps in 2 areas by either strengthening the edge if Ferguson is asked too block his man straight up or cutting off the backside pursuit if Ferguson is pulling making our poor blocking TEs a greater asset.

    This also indicates a serious flaw in the Jets thinking when it comes to the draft.If u are running a zone blocking scheme,why are you drafting players who excel at phone booth type blocking.Ducasse,Griffin and Hunter fit what Sparano does better than what Callahan did.The cowboys OL will fit perfectly with what Callahan prefers.Also,the plow horses that we have in Shonn Greene and Powell and Ganaway,should excel better in this type of blocking scheme since none of em have the quickness to slide plant and explode upfield.Speed and quickness are different things in football.[/QUOTE]

    Just an excellent post!!!!!!

  13. #13
    [QUOTE=Tinstar;4467025]The way i see this ,the Jets coaching staff has decided to run a system that can incorporate the strength of Vlad Ducasse, Hunter and the player they just drafted (Robert Griffin ) who excel at phone booth type blocking.If you combine this with Mangold and Ferguson's ability to pull,you can generate a heavy base going right.

    The Jets are probably going to place the TE either next to Ferguson or on the right side going in motion towards Ferguson .This helps in 2 areas by either strengthening the edge if Ferguson is asked too block his man straight up or cutting off the backside pursuit if Ferguson is pulling making our poor blocking TEs a greater asset.

    This also indicates a serious flaw in the Jets thinking when it comes to the draft.If u are running a zone blocking scheme,why are you drafting players who excel at phone booth type blocking.Ducasse,Griffin and Hunter fit what Sparano does better than what Callahan did.The cowboys OL will fit perfectly with what Callahan prefers.Also,the plow horses that we have in Shonn Greene and Powell and Ganaway,should excel better in this type of blocking scheme since none of em have the quickness to slide plant and explode upfield.Speed and quickness are different things in football.[/QUOTE]

    Couple of points. Vlad ducasse I can tell you is just the type of guards Callahan looks for his system. He likes the massive Guards that can root out the big NT's by them self. Think Mo Collins who was a Rt who he moved to Rg. Even a good oline coach like callahan are sometimes wrong about a player.

    You might be right about Shonn Greene and Powell (good fits) but I think your assessment of T Ganaway is off. JMO T Ganaway is probably better fit for a stretch zone blocking scheme than the one Jets are employing . Where the Rb makes one cut .

    I agree these players you mention are very good run blockers. When you want to be a run first team it very important to have those type of olineman. The big question is how will those Olineman do in pass protection(when you get in obvious passing situations). How much help do you have to give them.

  14. #14
    [QUOTE=Tinstar;4467025]The way i see this ,the Jets coaching staff has decided to run a system that can incorporate the strength of Vlad Ducasse, Hunter and the player they just drafted (Robert Griffin ) who excel at phone booth type blocking.If you combine this with Mangold and Ferguson's ability to pull,you can generate a heavy base going right.

    The Jets are probably going to place the TE either next to Ferguson or on the right side going in motion towards Ferguson .This helps in 2 areas by either strengthening the edge if Ferguson is asked too block his man straight up or cutting off the backside pursuit if Ferguson is pulling making our poor blocking TEs a greater asset.

    This also indicates a serious flaw in the Jets thinking when it comes to the draft.If u are running a zone blocking scheme,why are you drafting players who excel at phone booth type blocking.Ducasse,Griffin and Hunter fit what Sparano does better than what Callahan did.The cowboys OL will fit perfectly with what Callahan prefers.Also,the plow horses that we have in Shonn Greene and Powell and Ganaway,should excel better in this type of blocking scheme since none of em have the quickness to slide plant and explode upfield.Speed and quickness are different things in football.[/QUOTE]

    Good post. But it seems Greene ran behind zone blocking at Iowa?

    [QUOTE=C Mart;4466838][B][SIZE=2]Days of ‘bigger and stronger’ on offensive line are gone as Miami Dolphins switch to zone blocking scheme[/SIZE][/B]

    By Ben Volin

    And if the Dolphins target any offensive linemen in the draft, they will almost certainly come from teams that run “spread” offenses and/or utilize zone blocking – West Virginia, Texas A&M, Michigan, Iowa and Florida State, among them.

    [URL]http://blogs.palmbeachpost.com/thedailydolphin/2012/03/29/days-of-bigger-and-stronger-are-gone-as-miami-dolphins-switch-to-zone-blocking-scheme/[/URL][/QUOTE]

  15. #15
    So we are switching to a system that Sporano ran in Miami that gave up a crap load of sacks. I'm glad we signed a bunch of qb's this off season. Sanchez will be done by game 8 and the Jets will have a problem reaching 8-8.

  16. #16
    the only comment i'll make is that which scheme fits the jet personnel including sanchez better? it seems to me he needs a line that can proficient at run and pass blocking so while the man and zone schemes are for run plays, the same oline is also doing the pass protection.

  17. #17
    [QUOTE=srobjets;4467150]So we are switching to a system that Sporano ran in Miami that gave up a crap load of sacks. I'm glad we signed a bunch of qb's this off season. Sanchez will be done by game 8 and the Jets will have a problem reaching 8-8.[/QUOTE]

    Zone and man typically refer to the running game more than pass pro. Plus it's not like zone really helped us either, Sanchez was getting murdered last year. Zone schemes tend not to be conducive with an Erhardt-Perkins offense that likes to push the ball down the field in the passing attack but rather quick strike simple WCO. Your post lacks context. Just like last year the offense was Sanchez and Schotty's fault, you can't blame the sacks all on Sparano and not the players he had.

  18. #18
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    [QUOTE=C Mart;4467097]Good post. But it seems Greene ran behind zone blocking at Iowa?[/QUOTE]

    Chose this post because i believe u won't come at my neck with a response..Greene running at Iowa and in the NFL are 2 totally different things in that the players in the NFL are much faster than they are in college programs.At the pro level,most everyone has something that seperates them from your average college team.It maybe speed or it maybe smarts.Greene doesn't have the quickness to execute your NFL stretch run or off tackle run unless it's perfectly blocked.That's why he gets cut down for a lost or at the LOS for little to no gain so many times.

    As far as Ducasse and Griffin and Hunter goes,these players work best when they know exactly who it is they have to block.ON stunts,if u tell them to block the guys coming at them,he can be sure that guy will get block.These 3players have natural strength but are not pulling anywhere and blocking anyone with any effectiveness.As long as Sanchez is the QB,Holmes and Keller should be a big part of the Jets execution on offense.When Tebow becomes the QB,then Both Holmes and Keller need to take a seat and we need to have 2 TEs,an HBack and the RB on the field .

  19. #19
    Zone blocking requires smart linemen. From all reports Ducasse does not fit into that category.

    I think Ducasse would be much better giving him a simple assignment (block that one guy). Anything more complex and I fear he'd be lost.

  20. #20
    The NYJ's back in 2009 were capable of being very successful at BOTH blocking schemes. They didn't become the number 1 rushing team in the league by being one dimensional.

    The best attack to have is to have those "big" guys that can run both blocking schemes and perfect them. The Jets did that in 2009 and it sent the OL into the "zone" when the playoffs arrived. They steamrolled the Bengals and Chargers that year.

    Having those kind of guys is what the Jets have gotten away from since 2009. Wayne Hunter was not a sufficient replacement for Damien Woody last season. Any change in their particular blocking scheme has to do with covering up our OL's very obvious weaknesses at blocking TE, LG, and RT.

    IMO, a move like this should not give any Jets fan the warm and fuzzies for this season.

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