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Thread: Kenrick Ellis: Pre trial hearing this Thursday

  1. #41
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    [QUOTE]Information that came out at the time of the incident said that Kenrick Ellis actually went looking for the other guy across the campus after hearing about a supposed insult to his girlfriend. It will be extremely difficult if not impossible to show self defense in a court of law, baseball bat or not baseball bat, if you went looking for the confrontation in the first place.[/QUOTE]If this is true it certainly complicates the matter of "self defense". Up to hearing this I thought the issue was if Ellis' response to the "attack" went BEYOND a reasonable self defense.

    In other words, if Ellis was attacked by a someone with a baseball bat, and he punched him in the face, disarmed him.....and then stopped, then it would be the attacker facing his day in court on assault with a deadly weapon. However, if instead of just stopping after disarming him, he continued to beat the sh!t out of him, the Ellis becomes a target of prosecution.

    However if it was Ellis who precipitated the confrontation and the guy defended himself with a bat (as most of us would have done when confronted by an angry 6'5 315lb man), then this kid is in trouble.

    A lot will depend on questions we simply don't have the answers to.

    1. were the "victim's" injuries the result of one or two punches, which can be defended as merely a reaction to being attacked with a bat, OR owere they the result of a continued attack, which would be harder to defend.

    2. Who precipitated the confrontation?.

    3. Does Ellis have a history of violence? A lack of one helps him. Having on will hurt him.

    Usually things like this are pleaded out, and any further disputes are handled in civil court. However I think the immigration situation makes it harder to reach a plea agreement. Also would a plea potentially put Ellis in Goodell's sights for a disciplinary action.

    BOTTOM LINE - too many questions we don't know the answers to. But I guess we soon will.
    Last edited by patsfanken; 05-15-2012 at 06:07 PM.

  2. #42
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    [QUOTE=patsfanken;4469189]If this is true it certainly complicates the matter of "self defense". Up to hearing this I thought the issue was if Ellis' response to the "attack" went BEYOND a reasonable self defense.

    In other words, if Ellis was attacked by a someone with a baseball bat, and he punched him in the face, disarmed him.....and then stopped, then it would be the attacker facing his day in court on assault with a deadly weapon. However, if instead of just stopping after disarming him, he continued to beat the sh!t out of him, the Ellis becomes a target of prosecution.

    However if it was Ellis who precipitated the confrontation and the guy defended himself with a bat (as most of us would have done when confronted by an angry 6'5 315lb man), then this kid is in trouble.

    A lot will depend on questions we simply don't have the answers to.

    1. were the "victim's" injuries the result of one or two punches, which can be defended as merely a reaction to being attacked with a bat, OR owere they the result of a continued attack, which would be harder to defend.

    2. Who precipitated the confrontation?.

    3. Does Ellis have a history of violence? A lack of one helps him. Having on will hurt him.

    Usually things like this are pleaded out, and any further disputes are handled in civil court. However I think the immigration situation makes it harder to reach a plea agreement. Also would a plea potentially put Ellis in Goodell's sights for a disciplinary action.

    BOTTOM LINE - too many questions we don't know the answers to. But I guess we soon will.[/QUOTE]
    :huh:Can Goodell punish someone for something that happened before they entered the NFL?

  3. #43
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    [QUOTE=patsfanken;4469189]If this is true it certainly complicates the matter of "self defense". Up to hearing this I thought the issue was if Ellis' response to the "attack" went BEYOND a reasonable self defense.

    In other words, if Ellis was attacked by a someone with a baseball bat, and he punched him in the face, disarmed him.....and then stopped, then it would be the attacker facing his day in court on assault with a deadly weapon. However, if instead of just stopping after disarming him, he continued to beat the sh!t out of him, the Ellis becomes a target of prosecution.

    However if it was Ellis who precipitated the confrontation and the guy defended himself with a bat (as most of us would have done when confronted by an angry 6'5 315lb man), then this kid is in trouble.

    A lot will depend on questions we simply don't have the answers to.

    1. were the "victim's" injuries the result of one or two punches, which can be defended as merely a reaction to being attacked with a bat, OR owere they the result of a continued attack, which would be harder to defend.

    2. Who precipitated the confrontation?.

    3. Does Ellis have a history of violence? A lack of one helps him. Having on will hurt him.

    Usually things like this are pleaded out, and any further disputes are handled in civil court. However I think the immigration situation makes it harder to reach a plea agreement. Also would a plea potentially put Ellis in Goodell's sights for a disciplinary action.

    BOTTOM LINE - too many questions we don't know the answers to. But I guess we soon will.[/QUOTE]
    I think we are pretty much out of delays at this point and so we shall see what we shall see.

    Regardless of the outcome here I do not think it is within the purview of the commissioner to retroactively try and punish Ellis for something he did before he got drafted.

  4. #44
    I just hope he can get all of these off field issues resolved. He seems to be quite talented and it would be a shame to have this continue to affect his play with the Jets.

  5. #45
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    [QUOTE=Dcat;4468864]Thanks for the clarification. Very helpful. Question: If the victim and Ellis come to $$ agreement, can the victim ask the prosecutor to drop the charges and would the prosecutor be willing to do so at the victim's request?[/QUOTE]

    While the DA is under no obligation to follow the wishes of the (alleged) victim, in practical terms, its very difficult to pursue an assault conviction without a willing victim as a witness. Considering this was a fight between two guys, if the guy is no longer interested in pursuing the matter,

    If they come to a monetary agreement, my guess is that they would arrange some type of plea agreement to a low level misdemeanor, the more serious charges would be dismissed and the whole thing would go away with some $$$ to the guy and some community service.

  6. #46
    [QUOTE=crasherino;4469204]While the DA is under no obligation to follow the wishes of the (alleged) victim, in practical terms, its very difficult to pursue an assault conviction without a willing victim as a witness. Considering this was a fight between two guys, if the guy is no longer interested in pursuing the matter,

    If they come to a monetary agreement, my guess is that they would arrange some type of plea agreement to a low level misdemeanor, the more serious charges would be dismissed and the whole thing would go away with some $$$ to the guy and some community service.[/QUOTE]

    I think he pleads guilty to a misdemeanor assault and settles for $$$ with the "victim" who is probably some loser frat boy from Hampton Roads looking for a pay day.

    I think Ellis has a chance to be a beast. Ellis-Pouha-Coples all playing together - Oh my Lions, Tigers and Bears.

  7. #47
    [QUOTE=Jordy;4469195]:huh:Can Goodell punish someone for something that happened before they entered the NFL?[/QUOTE]

    Sure he can. He retained the right to punish 8 "repeat offenders" that broke the rules [U][I]during the lockout[/I][/U]. He avoided a public outcry by deciding not to dole out punishments for activity that occurred when players weren't under contract. But he stood firm to have the power to do so when he negotiated the new CBA.

    And don't forget he punished the Patriots and BB for a rule that only "exists" in a memo, and not the official rule book as ratified by a majority of the owners.;)

  8. #48
    [QUOTE=patsfanken;4469189]If this is true it certainly complicates the matter of "self defense". Up to hearing this I thought the issue was if Ellis' response to the "attack" went BEYOND a reasonable self defense.

    In other words, if Ellis was attacked by a someone with a baseball bat, and he punched him in the face, disarmed him.....and then stopped, then it would be the attacker facing his day in court on assault with a deadly weapon. However, if instead of just stopping after disarming him, he continued to beat the sh!t out of him, the Ellis becomes a target of prosecution.

    However if it was Ellis who precipitated the confrontation and the guy defended himself with a bat (as most of us would have done when confronted by an angry 6'5 315lb man), then this kid is in trouble.

    A lot will depend on questions we simply don't have the answers to.

    1. were the "victim's" injuries the result of one or two punches, which can be defended as merely a reaction to being attacked with a bat, OR owere they the result of a continued attack, which would be harder to defend.

    2. Who precipitated the confrontation?.

    3. Does Ellis have a history of violence? A lack of one helps him. Having on will hurt him.

    Usually things like this are pleaded out, and any further disputes are handled in civil court. However I think the immigration situation makes it harder to reach a plea agreement. Also would a plea potentially put Ellis in Goodell's sights for a disciplinary action.

    BOTTOM LINE - too many questions we don't know the answers to. But I guess we soon will.[/QUOTE]

    Great break down. I'd also like to know is whether the Jets had complete disclosure of all the facts of the case prior to drafting him. What information was disclosed to all the teams?

    The immigration consequences give the prosecutor a big advantage in negotiation without ever mentioning it. I wonder if Rex and Tanny are playing the role of Riverboat gamblers with Ellis.

    It's impossible to form an opinion on the case without knowing the answers to the questions in your post. In the end I hope this results in at least a plea without the adverse immigration consequences. Funny you mention Goodell. Can he impose penalties on a rookie for actions that occured prior to the draft? I can't remember that happening before. But I don't remember what I had for lunch either.

  9. #49
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    I think we rolled the dice on Kenrick Ellis and I think it was a good way to get 1st or 2nd round talent in the 3rd round. I am not a big fan of Mike Tannenbaum to put it mildly, but from a distance at least [U]I agree with taking the risk on this one.[/U] If he gets past this i think we might end up with a younger Kris Jenkins on our hands eventually (fingers crossed)

    The problem for me comes with the story from Ellis' side. That his girlfriend had been insulted or disrespected in some way. Regardless of whether or not he went looking for this guy across campus it does rather imply that Ellis was the aggressor in response to perceived insult towards his girlfriend.
    Last edited by EM31; 05-15-2012 at 08:13 PM.

  10. #50
    [QUOTE=GuidoYaztremski;4469221]Sure he can. He retained the right to punish 8 "repeat offenders" that broke the rules [U][I]during the lockout[/I][/U]. He avoided a public outcry by deciding not to dole out punishments for activity that occurred when players weren't under contract. But he stood firm to have the power to do so when he negotiated the new CBA.

    And don't forget he punished the Patriots and BB for a rule that only "exists" in a memo, and not the official rule book as ratified by a majority of the owners.;)[/QUOTE]

    I actually don't think you are correct.

    He punished players during the lockout as they were part of the NFL. College players aren't part of the NFL and therefore are not subject to disciplinary actions by the NFL.

    Positive weed tests by college players don't count as a strike against them once they are drafted.

  11. #51
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    [QUOTE=Jordy;4469195]:huh:Can Goodell punish someone for something that happened before they entered the NFL?[/QUOTE]That thought did occur to me, but I think I recall that he's done it before, IIRC. I know for a fact he disciplined guys who had problems during the lock out. Or he might do it because if he's found guilty, it happened when he was part of the league, even though the act happened before.

    At any event I said it MIGHT put him in Goodell's sights, and that might cause him to reject any plea that leaves him with some kind of guilty charge.

    Just a thought. I could be wrong

  12. #52
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    Just remembered that Goodell suspended Tyrelle Pryor for stuff he did in college. That might be an example of punishing a guy for something he did before he entered the league. Of course Pryor entered the league via the supplemental draft. Again I don't know if Goodell cares about Ellis or not. I just mentioned it as a possibility...just one of many possibilities that could come out of this case.

  13. #53
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    [QUOTE=patsfanken;4469433]Just remembered that Goodell suspended Tyrelle Pryor for stuff he did in college. That might be an example of punishing a guy for something he did before he entered the league. Of course Pryor entered the league via the supplemental draft. Again I don't know if Goodell cares about Ellis or not. I just mentioned it as a possibility...just one of many possibilities that could come out of this case.[/QUOTE]
    A Goodell punishment (if any) would mean that we have dodged the deportation issue. As it stands I would sign up for that right now.

  14. #54
    [QUOTE=patsfanken;4469189]If this is true it certainly complicates the matter of "self defense". Up to hearing this I thought the issue was if Ellis' response to the "attack" went BEYOND a reasonable self defense.

    In other words, if Ellis was attacked by a someone with a baseball bat, and he punched him in the face, disarmed him.....and then stopped, then it would be the attacker facing his day in court on assault with a deadly weapon. However, if instead of just stopping after disarming him, he continued to beat the sh!t out of him, the Ellis becomes a target of prosecution.

    However if it was Ellis who precipitated the confrontation and the guy defended himself with a bat (as most of us would have done when confronted by an angry 6'5 315lb man), then this kid is in trouble.

    A lot will depend on questions we simply don't have the answers to.

    1. were the "victim's" injuries the result of one or two punches, which can be defended as merely a reaction to being attacked with a bat, OR owere they the result of a continued attack, which would be harder to defend.

    2. Who precipitated the confrontation?.

    3. Does Ellis have a history of violence? A lack of one helps him. Having on will hurt him.

    Usually things like this are pleaded out, and any further disputes are handled in civil court. However I think the immigration situation makes it harder to reach a plea agreement. Also would a plea potentially put Ellis in Goodell's sights for a disciplinary action.

    BOTTOM LINE - too many questions we don't know the answers to. But I guess we soon will.[/QUOTE]

    :rolleyes:

    Another chance for pedantic Ken to spin his doom and gloom

    [IMG]http://static.fjcdn.com/comments/Oh+boy+Dad+installed+more+_a93af0844173366779ec54dd13044f4d.jpg[/IMG]

  15. #55
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    [QUOTE=Ray Ray19;4469465]:rolleyes:

    Another chance for pedantic Ken to spin his doom and gloom

    [IMG]http://static.fjcdn.com/comments/Oh+boy+Dad+installed+more+_a93af0844173366779ec54dd13044f4d.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE] Oh GFY, Ray. Just go change your diaper and get yourself to bed. This is grown up discussion, and way past your capacity to add anything of substance. Thank you for coming, but just go away. I think someone said something negative about Sanchez and Ryan in another thread, we need you to go and blindly defend them.

    BTW- Everyone is really impressed that you learned to use the word pedantic in a sentence. I think you should use it in every post you make. Cool :rolleyes::D

  16. #56
    [QUOTE=patsfanken;4469189].......
    [B]BOTTOM LINE - too many questions we don't know the answers to.[/B] But I guess we soon will.[/QUOTE]

    [QUOTE=Ray Ray19;4469465]:rolleyes:

    Another chance for pedantic Ken to spin his doom and gloom

    [/IMG][/QUOTE]

    How do you read this and then characterize it as "doom and gloom"?
    Geebus Ray, get a little objectivity will you?

  17. #57
    [QUOTE=GuidoYaztremski;4469543]How do you read this and then characterize it as "doom and gloom"?
    Geebus Ray, get a little objectivity will you?[/QUOTE]

    Because leading up to that "objective statement" were plenty of reasons why the Jets might have something to worry about.

    Doesn't mean he's not right, but it's definitely the "glass-half-empty" scenario, which is probably going to be frowned upon on a JETS site . . .

  18. #58
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    [QUOTE=Ray Ray19;4469465]:rolleyes:

    Another chance for pedantic Ken to spin his doom and gloom

    [IMG]http://static.fjcdn.com/comments/Oh+boy+Dad+installed+more+_a93af0844173366779ec54dd13044f4d.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
    But do you actually have anything to add to the discussion about Kenrick Ellis?

  19. #59
    [QUOTE=OCCH;4469547]Because leading up to that "objective statement" were plenty of reasons why the Jets might have something to worry about.

    Doesn't mean he's not right, but it's definitely the "glass-half-empty" scenario, which is probably going to be frowned upon on a JETS site . . .[/QUOTE]

    Not to belabor the point and drag this thread off topic, but I think in this instance at least, Ken simply lists an "either or" list of facts. While certainly not optimistic, it is also not pessimistic either. Pretty balanced post, Jets site or not. (Although his post really boils down to it could be a problem, it may not be a problem, a safe statement if there ever was one)

    Of course, Ray would argue "the sun rises in the east" if it were posted by a Pats fan.;)

  20. #60
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    [QUOTE=Ray Ray19;4469465]

    Another chance for pedantic Ken to spin his doom and gloom

    [/QUOTE]

    Have you [B][U]ever[/U][/B] added any value to the board?

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