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Thread: Sanchez & The Jets: How Not to Develop a Young QB

  1. #41
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    [QUOTE=PatsFanTX;4469746][B][U]Chapter One[/U][/B] – “What you want to do is hire a defensive Head Coach who has [B]no interest in the offense whatsoever[/B]".


    Right there is the problem in a nutshell.[/QUOTE]

    Actually the problem is that you're still breathing.

  2. #42
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    [QUOTE=Charlie Brown;4470153]I find it amusing that some people are arguing that Sanchez was handled well when he clearly has not....

    As I have said ad nauseum elsewhere a good defense does not mean you have WRs who can gain seperation from the defense or RBs who can hit holes with authority or insure that OL can protect the QB (ummm HUNTER!!).

    The fact that Sanchez was a rookie and raw by collegiate standards is what he was and something that the Jets as an organization had to know when they drafted him!!!!

    These aren't excuses, if the Jets were to get rid of Sanchez as some are hoping for out here and put Tim Tebow out there you could beat your bottom dollar that I would be arguing that the Jets should be supporting of their starting QB and Tebow time!!!!


    To argue that a QB doesn't need support that fits in with his talent and ability is just plain silliy IMO.[/QUOTE]


    Charlie, can you name some QBs in the last 20 years who have had better situations than Sanchez in his first 3 years ?? I can think of 3 off the top of my head, Cam, Big Ben and Aaron Rodgers.

  3. #43
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    [QUOTE=eaglenj;4469985]Beer....I completely agree about the WR argument, because while it has changed, the organization did bring in more talent at the position. I dont think the organization felt that Braylon and Tone could co-exist well as they wouldnt be paid the same amount. Not sure why we went with Mason over Cotch?

    But aside from that, where did we scale back the offense? By all accounts, the entire offense said that Schottys offense was too complicated, especially with pre-snap reads.

    [B]You forget Rex's famous code red and code green bit?[/B]

    Most importantly though, how do you justify the straight drop-back nature of the offense, when our QB was not a straight, drop-back passer? Where were the rollouts to maxmize his athleticism and in 2011, minimize the holes in the line?[/QUOTE]

    Maximize the athleticism? The 2nd time Sanchez got popped everyone and their dog were yelling 'Protect our franchise guy!"

    You can argue that we didn't have as good of an oc as we should have and I have no issue with that. I have a monumental issue with people crying about how poorly the Jets have handled Sanchez, it is simply totally the opposite.

  4. #44
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    [QUOTE=Demosthenes9;4470162]Charlie, can you name some QBs in the last 20 years who have had better situations than Sanchez in his first 3 years ?? I can think of 3 off the top of my head, Cam, Big Ben and Aaron Rodgers.[/QUOTE]

    How about Brady and Flacco?

  5. #45
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    As a rookie and soph Mark did have the benefit of manning the helm of a very talented team. He was also was a limitedly experience QB and did have success if we value Ws and Ls no? Last year was a stumble no doubt... but it goes beyond Sanchez.

    While there is no denying the team's talent, what Sanchez has never had in my opinion is an offense designed to take advantage of his strengths as player and ergo minimize his weaknesses. To me that is on the coaching.. i always felt like that was schotty's biggest issue (pre-sanchez as well). Like someone that can make one great dish by following a recipe, if Schotty had the right ingredients his offense would be relatively successful, but when the recipe calls for cream and he has none, schotty didn't know he could turn to milk and butter.

  6. #46
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    [QUOTE=Charlie Brown;4469973]So your commenting on something you haven't read is intelligent football talk:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

    It's simply not even necessary when the title of this thread says it all.

  7. #47
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    I will also say we do not really know who the starter will be.............they are both learning the same exact system at the same exact team so the only thing sanchez has over tebow at the moment is his past realtionship where rex gave him everything, but now I am not sure rex is convinced he is the long-term anwser thus bringing in tebow...........

    But if you don't think there is a open competition going on now thru pre-season you are seriously not with it or blinded by sanchez love or tebow hate.

    The old adage "actions speak louder than words is no more truer than ever in a business model".

    so yes I concede right now the FO says mark is the starter but they also said schotty wasn't going anywhere, gholston, and tone would make a good captain is improving, etc......etc.......etc in reality the only ones that are going to be able to decide that are the players and if tebow beats mark out in TC then tebow will start..................jmo

  8. #48
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    [QUOTE=Charlie Brown;4470153]I find it amusing that some people are arguing that Sanchez was handled well when he clearly has not....

    [B]Please present your points in a logical fashion we will be glad to shoot them down.[/B]

    As I have said ad nauseum elsewhere a good defense does not mean you have WRs who can gain seperation from the defense or RBs who can hit holes with authority or insure that OL can protect the QB (ummm HUNTER!!).

    [B]Are you looking at only last year? Seems so, you seem to have forgotten years one and two of the players development.[/B]

    The fact that Sanchez was a rookie and raw by collegiate standards is what he was and something that the Jets as an organization had to know when they drafted him!!!!

    [B]Yup, and they brought him into a team with a top 5 oline, running game, defense and put zero pressure on him at all.[/B]

    These aren't excuses, if the Jets were to get rid of Sanchez as some are hoping for out here and put Tim Tebow out there you could beat your bottom dollar that I would be arguing that the Jets should be supporting of their starting QB and Tebow time!!!!

    [B]Who the hell in their right mind is suggesting we get rid of Sanchez for Tebow? I don't think I've seen that suggestion once.[/B]


    To argue that a QB doesn't need support that fits in with his talent and ability is just plain silliy IMO.

    [B]Who said that? Even once? You feel that a top 5 oline with pro bowlers, a top 5 defense and a top 5 running game is no support? You think going out and getting two vet Wr is no support? Trading up to get a Rb and a Te is no support?[/B]

    [/QUOTE]

    People can make a valid argument that they don't like the oc and his offense. They can make a valid argument that the Jets f'ed up this past off season with personnel moves. Hell I said from day one that the dumbest thing the Jets did this past of season was f with their WR's (when everyone and their dog was slobbering over plax - mason and waving good bye to edwards and cotchery.

    To say the Jets did a bad job in handling a young Qb is totally wrong. If you want to see teams that are true examples look at the houston texans with Carr. St. louis with Bradford, the 1st couple years of stafford in Detroit.

  9. #49
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    Cavanaugh is useless as tits in a bull, we should dump this guy.

  10. #50
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    [QUOTE=Demosthenes9;4470162]Charlie, can you name some QBs in the last 20 years who have had better situations than Sanchez in his first 3 years ?? I can think of 3 off the top of my head, Cam, Big Ben and Aaron Rodgers.[/QUOTE]

    Pointing out that he had a great team around him is kind of silly, when the point was that he was completely mishandled by inept coaches, with proven track records of futility. What does it matter how much talent you put in a position to lose? If you want to argue that Shotty was a good coordinator then, by all means state your case, but to blurt out how great a circumstance Mark was put in, doesn't add anything to the conversation.

  11. #51
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    Big Sanchez fan but he has to do it this year, no excuses

  12. #52
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    [QUOTE=Laxman;4470177]How about Brady and Flacco?[/QUOTE]


    Good call :)

  13. #53
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    [QUOTE=NY's stepchild;4470232]Pointing out that he had a great team around him is kind of silly, [COLOR="Red"]when the point was that he was completely mishandled by inept coaches, with proven track records of futility.[/COLOR] What does it matter how much talent you put in a position to lose? If you want to argue that Shotty was a good coordinator then, by all means state your case, but to blurt out how great a circumstance Mark was put in, doesn't add anything to the conversation.[/QUOTE]

    Thing is, that was just ONE of the points that was made, not the ONLY point.

    Even then, don't know that you can say it was all the coaches. If people wanted to pinpoint Shotty and or Cav, that's fine, and a reasonable basis for discussion.

    But to say that Sanchez has been in a horrible situation here is drastically overstating the case.

  14. #54
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    [QUOTE=Demosthenes9;4470162]Charlie, can you name some QBs in the last 20 years who have had better situations than Sanchez in his first 3 years ?? I can think of 3 off the top of my head, Cam, Big Ben and Aaron Rodgers.[/QUOTE]

    I look at it as first off the Jets were not some juggernaut when Sanchez got here. First of we failed to make the playoffs and got the HC Mangini fired.

    Secondly I am strongly against the idea that you can just throw any QB into any situation and they will all perform the same regardless of the talent around them. To me to hold the contrary view is what I see as fantasy football run amuck. Some QB I think that came into more favorable situations in general are Flacco, Matt Ryan and Carson Palmer to name a few.

    IMO Palmer is interesting in that he was the number one pick in the NFL draft that year if my memory serves me and he didn't start his first year. But was competent in year 2 when he took his team to an 8 and 8 record and then in year 3 I think Cincinnati went something like 11-5.

    This is key; sometimes a team has to take a step back to integrate the members of the team into a winning formula. When the Jets drafted Sanchez I was excited because for the first time in 30+ years I thought they got it right. Then when they said that were going to start Sanchez I was concerned but they "claimed" they had a plan for his development.

    Well it turns out the Jets didn't have a plan. Rex by is own admission was absolutely clueless about what was going on concerning offense. Schotty was so stubborn that he REFUSED to run play suited to Sanchez's strengths like say Denver did for Tebow and the truth is that no QB under Schotty showed tremendous promise under Schotty's tutelage.

    So IMO each QB has to be looked at in terms of the organizations plan for winning which should be more than a year to year fire drill!!!!

  15. #55
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    [QUOTE=Charlie Brown;4470265]I look at it as first off the Jets were not some juggernaut when Sanchez got here. First of we failed to make the playoffs and got the HC Mangini fired.

    Secondly I am strongly against the idea that you can just throw any QB into any situation and they will all perform the same regardless of the talent around them. To me to hold the contrary view is what I see as fantasy football run amuck. Some QB I think that came into more favorable situations in general are Flacco, Matt Ryan and Carson Palmer to name a few.

    IMO Palmer is interesting in that he was the number one pick in the NFL draft that year if my memory serves me and he didn't start his first year. But was competent in year 2 when he took his team to an 8 and 8 record and then in year 3 I think Cincinnati went something like 11-5.

    This is key; sometimes a team has to take a step back to integrate the members of the team into a winning formula. When the Jets drafted Sanchez I was excited because for the first time in 30+ years I thought they got it right. Then when they said that were going to start Sanchez I was concerned but they "claimed" they had a plan for his development.

    Well it turns out the Jets didn't have a plan. Rex by is own admission was absolutely clueless about what was going on concerning offense. Schotty was so stubborn that he REFUSED to run play suited to Sanchez's strengths like say Denver did for Tebow and the truth is that no QB under Schotty showed tremendous promise under Schotty's tutelage.

    So IMO each QB has to be looked at in terms of the organizations plan for winning which should be more than a year to year fire drill!!!![/QUOTE]

    By and large, I agree with you and feel that QBs should be eased into starting roles.

    That said, IF a young QB is going to be thrown in as a starter, it definitely is beneficial to have a top 5 Defense, decent receivers and a great O line.

    I mean, all you have to do is look at Cleveland over the last X number of QBs to see how to really mess things up. Or Houston with Carr. Or Carolina with Clausen. Or any other number of teams that had highly rated QB prospects, but provided them with zero support.

    Would it have been better if Sanchez could have sat for a year AND had better coaching ? Sure. But, again, his situation was much better than many other QBs that have come into the league.

    Then again, I'm probably looking at this through a different prism as I think Sanchez has done pretty well so far, if you subtract the last couple games from this past season.

  16. #56
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    [QUOTE=Beerfish;4470175]Maximize the athleticism? The 2nd time Sanchez got popped everyone and their dog were yelling 'Protect our franchise guy!"

    You can argue that we didn't have as good of an oc as we should have and I have no issue with that. I have a monumental issue with people crying about how poorly the Jets have handled Sanchez, it is simply totally the opposite.[/QUOTE]

    I honestly think we are discussing 2 different things.

    In no way am I arguing that Sanchez didnt have a good defense and Oline to help protect him and to help his won-loss record. But neither of those things can be considered as the organization "Developing him properly." Would a team consciously decide to downgrade their defense or Oline...Never. Those things simply showed that we had some good pieces here.

    Where I think the organization has failed him is not developing Mark and Mark alone as a player. Forget the line or WRs and ask the following questions.

    Did the OC develop plays that worked to his QBs strengths? Where were the rollouts that he ran in college and was successful with.

    Did we make in-season adjustments when the offense was struggling? Did we run 2-TE sets when it became apparent that our RT couldnt keep him safe.

    When sanchez had success with the no-huddle, did we take any of those plays and use them in non 2 minute situations? Where was he allowed to ever improvise?

    Did we give him conflicting messages of how to play, on one hand telling him to manage the game (color coded wristband), and yet in a game we were winning, and rushed for 300 yards, we kept calling pass plays until he threw enough INTs to lose? 3 years later, in a game where we should have controlled the clock, did we again call 59 passes for our "game manager"?

    Most, if not all of the above, fall on schotty directly, but it is Rex's job to see this and tell schotty to change what he is doing. The QB Coach gets some blame here too as he is an intermediary between the QB and HC/OC (ie "good cop") and should have seen enough to suggest a change. That is why the 3 of them, and their boss Woody, failed to help his development.

    So if you are asking if sanchez was put in a position to succeed the answer is yes and HE DID....he QB'd the team to back to back Championship games. However he never DEVELOPED as much as he should have for the reasons above. Hopefully most of that was Schotty and we can see a dramatic improvement this year.

  17. #57
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    [QUOTE=Beerfish;4470175]Maximize the athleticism? The 2nd time Sanchez got popped everyone and their dog were yelling 'Protect our franchise guy!"

    You can argue that we didn't have as good of an oc as we should have and I have no issue with that. I have a monumental issue with people crying about how poorly the Jets have handled Sanchez, it is simply totally the opposite.[/QUOTE]

    i don't think the issue is that they've 'mishandled' him. i think the issue is, they traded up to draft a guy with the 6th pick, but never had any intention of building a team around him. rex's vision was always to build a conservative, run-oriented offense, and combine this with a very strong defense, aka the ravens model. and that model can work. but they shouldn't have drafted sanchez, at least not in the first round. it makes no sense to draft a qb very high if you have no intention of having a high-powered passing offense. rex's preferences have dictated several drafts, the past 3 first rounders are all defense. it's not that they've mishandled sanchez, so much as they've mishandled their entire approach to offense. the jets would have been better off if they had acquired a veteran qb and got a very good RT after woody left. that would have been better use of cap space than paying sanchez 10M to hand off and handle 3rd and 4.

  18. #58
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    [QUOTE=augustiniak;4470329]i don't think the issue is that they've 'mishandled' him. i think the issue is, they traded up to draft a guy with the 6th pick, but never had any intention of building a team around him. rex's vision was always to build a conservative, run-oriented offense, and combine this with a very strong defense, aka the ravens model. and that model can work. but they shouldn't have drafted sanchez, at least not in the first round. it makes no sense to draft a qb very high if you have no intention of having a high-powered passing offense. rex's preferences have dictated several drafts, the past 3 first rounders are all defense. it's not that they've mishandled sanchez, so much as they've mishandled their entire approach to offense. the jets would have been better off if they had acquired a veteran qb and got a very good RT after woody left. that would have been better use of cap space than paying sanchez 10M [B]to hand off and handle 3rd and 4.[/B][/QUOTE]

    i wish he was smart enough to call a audible to hand it off in that situation instead of throwing a INT or pick 6.......

  19. #59
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    [QUOTE=Rich Caster;4470208]Cavanaugh is useless as tits in a bull, we should dump this guy.[/QUOTE]

    This I agree with. I can't believe he was not deep sixed when Shotty left.

  20. #60
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    [QUOTE=augustiniak;4470329]i don't think the issue is that they've 'mishandled' him. i think the issue is, they traded up to draft a guy with the 6th pick, but never had any intention of building a team around him. rex's vision was always to build a conservative, run-oriented offense, and combine this with a very strong defense, aka the ravens model. and that model can work. but they shouldn't have drafted sanchez, at least not in the first round. it makes no sense to draft a qb very high if you have no intention of having a high-powered passing offense. rex's preferences have dictated several drafts, the past 3 first rounders are all defense. it's not that they've mishandled sanchez, so much as they've mishandled their entire approach to offense. the jets would have been better off if they had acquired a veteran qb and got a very good RT after woody left. that would have been better use of cap space than paying sanchez 10M to hand off and handle 3rd and 4.[/QUOTE]

    I totally agree with this, but it doesn't have anything to do with them handling him badly once he was here.

    They tried to unleash Sanchez lat year. All moves suggested they decided that it was time for him to make more plays and win games for them and it didn't work out thus they went back to controlled running attack.

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