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Thread: Addressing Safety vs. Not Addressing RT

  1. #61
    [QUOTE=patsfanken;4473042]Since Ray has told me my job is to be negative, I won't disappoint. Here are some points that would lead me to believe that the regression of the the Jets OL is going to continue. It was a top 3 OL in 2009, a top 5 OL in 2010, and the 12th best OL in 2011.

    1. Wayne Hunter is what he is. Somehow some people think that going into his NINTH year in the league, he's somehow going to reinvent himself into a quality RT. He's a career back up who never started more than 1 game in a season until Woody got hurt in 2010.

    2. Yes he might have played well in the 4 games he started that year, but clearly over the course of 16 games he was exposed in 2011.

    3. Ducasse WAS drafted with the idea he'd be a G. That's what the scouting reports said before the draft. Most liked his size and strength at G, but felt he didn't have the feet to play T in the NFL. NOTHING in his brief forays at RT would make anyone believe that those reports were wrong.

    4. But unlike Hunter, Duccasse DOES at least have the "potential" to improve, but he'd probably be better served going back to G. He also MIGHT be one of those who would be better served playing in a man blocking system

    5. While Hunter became a scapegoat, not all the problems on the OL can be pinned to him alone. D'Brick had a horrible year. He was never a great run blocker, but he HAD the reputation of being an elite pass blocker. Not last season. But until he proves it was only a hiccup and NOT a trend, for the first time in a long time the Jets have a question mark at LT.

    6. There are some here who are hoping that the move from a "zone blocking" system to a "man blocking" system will help Wayne Hunter....and it may. at almost 350 lbs, he is a big physical presence. HOWEVER, it may have the opposite effect on D'Brick. His is a smaller (relatively), more athletic T, who was well suited for a zone blocking system. Never known for his physicality, D'brick might not thrive as well in a new system.

    7. Slauson is truly "just a guy". He's a serviceable starter, but would be a better back up. He's a guy good enough to start, but one you're always looking to upgrade. Also he's played all his football life in Callahan's blocking system at Nebraska and with the Jets. It will be interesting to see if the "new blocking system" will help or hurt him.

    8. Brandon Moore HAS been a great asset to the Jet OL, but he showed some wear and tear last season as well, and will be 32 camp opens. That's not ancient for an OLman, but you have to worry about if his recent injuries have slowed him down.

    9. And here is the most critical issue. Your depth. None of your current back ups have ever started an NFL game. Few have played anything more than token snaps in a real NFL game. The Jets have been extraordinarily lucky with OL injuries. Not just last season, but the last 3 seasons. Last season the Jets OL starters only missed 3 games. Compare that to the 32 games lost by the Pats OL starters

    Imagine losing D'Brick for any length of time. Who is HIS back up. Look at what happened to the OL when Mangold went down for JUST 2 games. So while the biggest concern among Jet fans seems to be RT (and justly so), almost none of you seem to care that the FO did NOTHING to address the utter lack of experienced depth along the entire OL. Maybe the anonymous group that get mentioned with glowing praise, can do the job. I don't know, and neither do you, or the Jets FO. If the injury pendulum ever starts to swing back to what the rest of the league has to deal with, you are going to have to find out.

    Picture that OL if the Jets have to deal with 32 games lost to starters, or what the Bills had to go through, or the Steelers. It could be ugly.

    BTW-part of that lack of experienced depth is due to the cap restraints the Jets are currently under.

    ONE POSITIVE NOTE - Its still early and as I've mentioned before, you never know if some anonymous signing between now and September might prove to be golden. 5 days before the season started the Pats signed Brian Waters, and Pats fans universally yawned. By January he was a first team All Pro, and the team would have be screwed without him. He was the only starter to play all 16 games.

    So while the situation may look bleak, help COULD be on its way.[/QUOTE]

    Great post, right on the money. This is why I like having the Pats fans around. Every once in awhile you get something like this.

  2. #62
    [QUOTE=patsfanken;4473116][QUOTE=Ray Ray19;4473044]:rolleyes:
    What makes ANYTHING I said "arrogant". Its my OPINION, based on observation and the FACTS at hand. I can only guess that the definition of "arrogance" in Ray Ray world is anything that YOU disagree with. :rolleyes:

    Vlad was drafted to be a guard. The proof of that was that was where the Jets "played" him his entire first year. BTW "played" is in parenthesis because he wasn't good enough to actually play in games

    Also the Pats were looking for OLmen in 2010 and Ducasse was someone Pats draftniks followed. Many though he was a nice G prospect in the 2nd to 4th rounds. I have never criticized the Jets for the pick, even in the 2nd round. Its just that it hasn't worked out. Deal with it. It happens.

    He was only moved to OT when Woody went down, and has remained their ONLY because the Jets haven't brought anyone else in to play OT. But even YOU can't be THAT delusional to say that in his very few snaps he's gotten at OT, you can't see what all the scouting reports pointed out. :rolleyes:

    My knowledge of Slauson comes from stats, the 4 or 5 Jet games I see each year, and mostly from observations by fans here who follow the Jets more closely than I. If you believe he's a "beast", then I respect your opinion, even though I disagree.

    NO that's wrong, just look at the Pats. Right now the Pats could lose all of their starters and replace them with someone who has at least started a few regular season NFL games. The Jets can't replace even ONE. That's not depth. That's a wish and a prayer.
    Actually based on the feedback so far.....I have :eek:

    BTW- the purpose of the post isn't necessarily to have people agree with me, but more to spark a discussion of the situation based on what I've written. You were free to disagree. But since you merely dismissed all the points by calling me an arrogant blowhard, instead of debating specifics. I can only guess you aren't up to the task.

    Thanks for participating and come again.[/QUOTE]

    Stop it, you prance around on this message board like you are some kind of expert.

    And how can you state something as "fact" when you have no ****ing clue what the facts are?

    Stating as a "fact" that Dugasse was drafted to be a G is pure opinion, conjecture, and speculation, NOTHING else. Do YOU know anybody in the Jets front office? Were you in the war room when the discussions took place on this player? Do you have access to the Jets scouting profile on Ducasse? How is this fact?

    [quote]My knowledge of Slauson comes from stats...[/quote] :rolleyes:

    LMAO he became a starter in his second year, he's now been a starter for two years, his first year as a starter, the Jets were the #3 rushing team in the league, last year, as has been discussed ad nauseum in hundreds of threads, was an implosion of the entire team, so trying to spin stats from last year is useless. What other stats did YOU cook up?

    [quote]NO that's wrong, just look at the Pats. Right now the Pats could lose all of their starters and replace them with someone who has at least started a few regular season NFL games.[/quote]State your opinion, write your 100 page thesis' all you want, but don't preach on here as if you are some kind of insider or expert, you aren't, and your posts are constructed in such a way that reeks arrogance. My opnion, my observation!!!

    Really? When did the final rosters get submitted to the NFL? Did the CBA change the start of the football season? When the hell did the pre-season games start? Holy crap, patsbabblingken has final depth charts, how the **** did this happen? :rolleyes:

  3. #63
    [QUOTE=Buzzsaw;4472358]One more thought, it's unbelievable that our[B] fat loudmouth offensive line coach [/B]promised that Hunter would be the starting RT. There should be a competition, and the team should be looking for any veterans that might get cut. Stupid thing to say.[/QUOTE]

    Are we talking about Rex or SPegs/Googs here.

    I agree that the best player should start. Hunter can seriously think he's got the RT position sewn up on account of his appalling play last year:eek:

  4. #64
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    [QUOTE=FijiJet;4473417]Are we talking about Rex or SPegs/Googs here.

    I agree that the best player should start. Hunter can seriously think he's got the RT position sewn up on account of his appalling play last year:eek:[/QUOTE]

    New OL guru Dave DeGu wanted Hunter in Miami, so his high expectations in Hunter were there all along.

    Maybe DeGu can get this sorry OL to produce.

    I hope he gets their asses in gear from left to right, starting with Brick.

    Brick is easily as bad as Hunter on several occasions per game.

    And when the entire unit is underachieving, you have to question the coaching first and foremost.

    Callahan obviously wasn't interested in winning.

  5. #65
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    [QUOTE=jetrider;4473084]LOL ... ROFC

    You mean the same OL that [b]LOST[/b] the AFCC?

    Funny you don't remember how Sanchez ate grass twice in three plays, including the strip-6 that ended it all.

    Funny you don't remember how Sanchez hobbled off the field holding his elbow after Ike Taylor paved him - by blowing past Brick untouched.

    Then 2011 began with the same edge blitz and the same result, no?

    Seriously, I wonder if you (and others) watch the games or just imagine them in your head.

    [B][U]WTF were you looking at?[/U][/B]
    [/QUOTE]

    The games look different when you watch them through green-colored glasses.

  6. #66
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    [QUOTE=jetrider;4473084]LOL ... ROFC

    You mean the same OL that [B]LOST[/B] the AFCC?

    Funny you don't remember how Sanchez ate grass twice in three plays, including the strip-6 that ended it all.

    Funny you don't remember how Sanchez hobbled off the field holding his elbow after Ike Taylor paved him - by blowing past Brick untouched.

    Then 2011 began with the same edge blitz and the same result, no?

    Seriously, I wonder if you (and others) watch the games or just imagine them in your head.

    WTF were you looking at?[/QUOTE]
    Ouch. I think Ray Ray got spanked.

  7. #67
    [QUOTE=jetrider;4473576]New OL guru Dave DeGu wanted Hunter in Miami, so his high expectations in Hunter were there all along.

    Maybe DeGu can get this sorry OL to produce.

    I hope he gets their asses in gear from left to right, starting with Brick.

    Brick is easily as bad as Hunter on several occasions per game.

    And when the entire unit is underachieving, you have to question the coaching first and foremost.

    Callahan obviously wasn't interested in winning.[/QUOTE]

    Deglugliemo OLine last year in Miami gave up 52 sacks last year. So compare to Marco Colombo anyone looks a lot better than him at Rt. *(can definitely see why he feels so good about Hunter)

    Yea you weren't calling on Callahan head when that Jet oline was one of the best in the league. Maybe Callahan saw a decline and wanted out. Jets wouldn't let him interview for that OC position. Again why you do more damage sometimes keeping a coach that might want to be some place else.

    Btw- Bricksahaw ferguson down year is more on schedule last year. Look how many of the games top pass rushers he was seeing every week( NFC East, Afc West, Afc East, Ravens etc) Won't be seeing anywhere near that level this year.
    Last edited by Raider9175; 05-21-2012 at 12:39 PM.

  8. #68
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    [QUOTE=Raider9175;4473662]
    Yea you weren't calling on Callahan head when that Jet oline was one of the best in the league.
    [/QUOTE]

    Oh, yes I was, and no it wasn't. (ever the best under Callahan)

    I've been cursing the OL since '09, and continued when I joined JI.

  9. #69
    [QUOTE=jetrider;4473673]Oh, yes I was, and no it wasn't. (ever the best under Callahan)

    I've been cursing the OL since '09, and continued when I joined JI.[/QUOTE]

    :eek:< speechless> Just because you were cursing the oline since 09 doesn't mean that oline wasn't pretty darn good. Tell me How did Jets get to two Afc championships with a lousy oline. Have one of the top rushing attacks with not exactly superstar running backs.

    Jets oline struggled last year but it still didn't give up any where near the sacks that Miami oline gave up. (now this new oline coach is an upgrade from Callahan that going to raise that oline level How do you draw up that conclusion.
    Last edited by Raider9175; 05-21-2012 at 01:39 PM.

  10. #70
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    [QUOTE=Raider9175;4473735]:eek:< speechless> Just because you were cursing the oline since 09 doesn't mean that oline wasn't pretty darn good. Tell me How did Jets get to two Afc championships with a lousy oline. Have one of the top rushing attacks with not exactly superstar running backs.

    Jets oline struggled last year but it still didn't give up any where near the sacks that Miami oline gave up. (now this new oline coach is an upgrade from Callahan that going to raise that oline level How do you draw up that conclusion.[/QUOTE]

    First of all, we had this discussion already and I'm not about to continue with an argumentative Raider fan who obviously doesn't watch complete Jets games every week.

    Secondly, I've drawn zero conclusions about Dave D - if you know how to read and know what a conclusion is.

  11. #71
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    [QUOTE]Stop it, you prance around on this message board like you are some kind of expert.

    And how can you state something as "fact" when you have no ****ing clue what the facts are?

    Stating as a "fact" that Dugasse was drafted to be a G is pure opinion, conjecture, and speculation, NOTHING else. Do YOU know anybody in the Jets front office? Were you in the war room when the discussions took place on this player? Do you have access to the Jets scouting profile on Ducasse? How is this fact?
    [/QUOTE] You don't have to be "some kind of expert" to know Ducasse was drafted to be a OG

    ITEM I - He was UNIVERSALLY considered to be better suited to be an NFL OG by every draft scouting service, draftnik, and mock draft sites.

    ITEM 2 - The year he was drafted, the Jets had a big need for an OG, and little or no need to draft an OT high in that draft with Woody, Furgeson, and Hunter already on board

    ITEM 3 - After he was drafted he was immediately moved to LG. He was given the opportunity compete for the starting job. He lost out to Slauson. But remained his back up.

    There is NOTHING in the above 3 items that you can dispute...NOTHING. And yet you STILL can claim that its "speculation" to think he was drafted to be a Guard.

    I have to hand it to you. You are the only man alive who could make that leap of faith. You are truly a "one of a kind" fan.
    :
    [QUOTE]LMAO he became a starter in his second year, he's now been a starter for two years, his first year as a starter, the Jets were the #3 rushing team in the league, last year, as has been discussed ad nauseum in hundreds of threads, was an implosion of the entire team, so trying to spin stats from last year is useless. What other stats did YOU cook up?
    [/QUOTE] Ray, where in my post did I say he was a bad player. I said he was good enough to start, but a guy you'd always like to upgrade. I thought Dan Connolly did a yeoman's job at C for the Pats. But many Pats fans wanted to upgrade with Konz this draft. Just because you don't suck, doesn't mean you want to upgrade the position.
    [QUOTE]State your opinion, write your 100 page thesis' all you want, but don't preach on here as if you are some kind of insider or expert, you aren't, and your posts are constructed in such a way that reeks arrogance. My opnion, my observation!!!
    [/QUOTE] I'm real sorry about your short attention span. And I have sympathy for your inability to comprehend detail oriented posts. BUT I can't find any empathy for a mental deficient who thinks that anything that you aren't smart enough to comprehend is arrogance, or anything that doesn't mesh with YOUR view is stupidity.
    [QUOTE]Really? When did the final rosters get submitted to the NFL? Did the CBA change the start of the football season? When the hell did the pre-season games start? Holy crap, patsbabblingken has final depth charts, how the **** did this happen? :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
    Grow up Ray. We are all just football fans who really have very little to talk about for a few months, so we spend this time talking on all manner of topics simple to pass the time.

    Things may change and they often do. But its not up to you to determine what topics can be talked about and when. RIGHT NOW, the Jets OL is in the topic subject...even if YOU don't like the way the conversation is going.

  12. #72
    [QUOTE=jetrider;4473084]LOL ... ROFC

    You mean the same OL that [B]LOST[/B] the AFCC?

    Funny you don't remember how Sanchez ate grass twice in three plays, including the strip-6 that ended it all.

    Funny you don't remember how Sanchez hobbled off the field holding his elbow after Ike Taylor paved him - by blowing past Brick untouched.

    Then 2011 began with the same edge blitz and the same result, no?

    Seriously, I wonder if you (and others) watch the games or just imagine them in your head.

    WTF were you looking at?[/QUOTE]

    Yeah, it isn't like the Steelers didn't have the best defense in the league that year, I guess you forgot that. Questioning the Jets OL in that game is stupid. It' Ike Taylor is a ****ing CB, and ran in on a blitz, yeah, Ferguson should have been cut after that game.... :rolleyes:

    Yeah, you aren't really proving anything, other than my original point, that most fans that ***** about the Jets OL don't have a ****ing clue.
    Last edited by Ray Ray19; 05-21-2012 at 09:40 PM.

  13. #73
    [QUOTE=Jordy;4473617]Ouch. I think Ray Ray got spanked.[/QUOTE]

    You thought wrong. But it is flattering you're now waving pom poms of others.
    Last edited by Ray Ray19; 05-21-2012 at 08:55 PM.

  14. #74
    [QUOTE=patsfanken;4473858]You don't have to be "some kind of expert" to know Ducasse was drafted to be a OG

    ITEM I - He was UNIVERSALLY considered to be better suited to be an NFL OG by every draft scouting service, draftnik, and mock draft sites.

    ITEM 2 - The year he was drafted, the Jets had a big need for an OG, and little or no need to draft an OT high in that draft with Woody, Furgeson, and Hunter already on board

    ITEM 3 - After he was drafted he was immediately moved to LG. He was given the opportunity compete for the starting job. He lost out to Slauson. But remained his back up.

    There is NOTHING in the above 3 items that you can dispute...NOTHING. And yet you STILL can claim that its "speculation" to think he was drafted to be a Guard.[/QUOTE]

    There is a whole thread dedicated to an article that proves you WRONG, are you really still going to argue this? Are you so ****ing arrogant you will argue just for the sake of arguing to save face?

    :shakehead


    Item 1, universally according to who? What evidence supports this, other than your bull****?

    Item 2 is crap, the year Ducasse was drafted, as the other article pointed out, the team liked Slauson, and felt good enough about him to release Faneca, this was BEFORE the draft, before Ducasse was even taken...

    Item 3 is crap, Woody was entrenched at RT, Slauson was an untested 2nd year player who hadn't yet been a starter...

    :rolleyes:

  15. #75
    [QUOTE=Raider9175;4473662]Deglugliemo OLine last year in Miami gave up 52 sacks last year. So compare to Marco Colombo anyone looks a lot better than him at Rt. *(can definitely see why he feels so good about Hunter)

    Yea you weren't calling on Callahan head when that Jet oline was one of the best in the league. Maybe Callahan saw a decline and wanted out. Jets wouldn't let him interview for that OC position. Again why you do more damage sometimes keeping a coach that might want to be some place else.

    Btw- Bricksahaw ferguson down year is more on schedule last year. Look how many of the games top pass rushers he was seeing every week( NFC East, Afc West, Afc East, Ravens etc) Won't be seeing anywhere near that level this year.[/QUOTE]

    The Dolphins had injury problems along the OL all year last year, not to mention losing their starting QB and having to integrate a new QB into the offense who had only joined them in training camp. They also had average talent outside of Long and Pouncey.

    Reggie Bush still went on to have his best year, and by the end of the year Matt Moore was playing as good of football than at any point in his career. Both testaments to the job done by both OL coach and Sparano in reeling the team back from a bad start to finish the season strong.

  16. #76
    [QUOTE=Austin;4472287]Something I was thinking about...

    Most Jets fans who watched the team last year saw a major weakness on each side of the ball (not counting the ever polarizing Mark Sanchez) -- safety (in particular Eric Smith) and RT (Wayne Hunter.)

    The Jets have been very aggressive in improving the safety position. They have signed LaRon Landry (a former top ten pick) and Yeramiah Bell and drafted two promising late round sleepers (Antonio Allen and Josh Bush.) They went after Reggie Nelson (but didn't land him) but the message is clear -- our management and coaching staff agree that Eric Smith sucks and needs to be replaced. Leonhard too.

    RT has obviously been the opposite -- we have made no effort to sign a RT thus far and our management and coaching staff have endorsed Wayne Hunter.

    It may sound odd, but this is somewhat encouraging to me -- essentially that while Smith and Leonhard were problems talent wise team management has a strong reason to beleive that Hunter's problems are correctable and won't be an issue -- since this clearly isn't a case of apathy or inability to make a move (since they've been aggressive in improving our safeties) but a calculated decision.

    Anyone else oddly encouraged?[/QUOTE]

    Bottom Line: Wayne Hunter > Eric Smith


    At their respective positions.


    CS feels Hunter had a down season last year but will bounce back next season. Not out of the realm of possiblity considering 1) Hunter played pretty well in 2010 2) we had no blocking TE last season and 3) Schotty's predictable playcalling compromised Hunter and the rest of our OL (Brick had a bad year too).

    The only viable option left in Free Agency is Vernon Carey and he's really more of a Right Guard now. Sparano would absolutely know he moved Carey to the RG position. I think signing Carey to reasonable money to give us depth at both Guard spots and RT would make sense but Hunter would still end up as the starter.
    Last edited by detjetsfan; 05-21-2012 at 09:21 PM.

  17. #77
    [QUOTE=Ray Ray19;4474107]The Dolphins had injury problems along the OL all year last year, not to mention losing their starting QB and having to integrate a new QB into the offense who had only joined them in training camp. They also had average talent outside of Long and Pouncey.

    Reggie Bush still went on to have his best year, and by the end of the year Matt Moore was playing as good of football than at any point in his career. Both testaments to the job done by both OL coach and Sparano in reeling the team back from a bad start to finish the season strong.[/QUOTE]

    52 sacks is a lot of sacks for any oline to give up . Who do you rather have Richie incognito and Vernon carey or matt Slauson and Brandon Moore.

    You do know Ray that Tony Sparano was fired after week thirteen. So how much credit should tony Sparano and The Jets new oline coach deserve.


    Btw Statistical Mark Sanchez had his best year in 2011 should Brian Shottenheimer and Callahan get the credit for that too.

  18. #78
    [QUOTE=Raider9175;4474300]52 sacks is a lot of sacks for any oline to give up . Who do you rather have Richie incognito and Vernon carey or matt Slauson and Brandon Moore.

    You do know Ray that Tony Sparano was fired after week thirteen. So how much credit should tony Sparano and The Jets new oline coach deserve.


    Btw Statistical Mark Sanchez had his best year in 2011 should Brian Shottenheimer and Callahan get the credit for that too.[/QUOTE]

    Nice spin

    The point remains, the phins started 0-7, mostly due to key injuries on offense, they pulled it together to finish 6-3.

    Sacks are also a product of skill position players not getting open, the QB holding on to the ball, or not comfortable within the offense, as Moore was a work in progress all year, and put a nice run in at the end.

    The player quotes are out there about Sparano, singing his praises.

    His style is exactly what the Jets needed, and the fact he is a Parcells disciple is enough for me to believe he will come in and do a good job.
    Last edited by Ray Ray19; 05-22-2012 at 12:18 AM.

  19. #79
    [QUOTE=Ray Ray19;4474302]Nice spin

    The point remains, the phins started 0-7, mostly due to key injuries on offense, they pulled it together to finish 6-3.

    Sacks are also a product of skill position players not getting open, the QB holding on to the ball, or not comfortable within the offense, as Moore was a work in progress all year, and put a nice run in at the end.

    The player quotes are out there about Sparano, singing his praises.

    His style is exactly what the Jets needed, and the fact he is a Parcells disciple is enough for me to believe he will come in and do a good job.[/QUOTE]

    Only one spinning is you Ray. Sparano record was a 4-9 mark before he was fired. (how does he get credit for games he wasn't there for) Al;so The Dolphins poor start was more the defense not playing that well ,than the offense Ray.

    The Dolphins had a top ten receiver in Brandon Marshall Ray,- you would say that guy was pretty good piece for a qb to have. Not to mention having a nice receiver coming out of backfield in Reggie Bush.

    JMO The Dolphins Oline was huge those guys were more suited to run blocking than pass protecting. The problem with having an oline like that is your going to struggle when a team can take away that running game. ( have to pass)
    It like the Jets they want to rely heavy on the running game.(same blue print) The Wayne Hunter and Ducasse shouldn't be as much a problem as long as that running game is effective. That running game is going good that should open up the passing game(deep balls) .
    The Jets get in known passing downs and there are legitimate questions if that Oline going to be able to hold up in pass protection.


    Btw any new coach that is brought in the players are always buying into the program. (like what they are doing) Lets see a team have some adversity and lets see if they are still buying in.
    Last edited by Raider9175; 05-22-2012 at 10:10 AM.

  20. #80
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    [QUOTE=jetrider;4473673]Oh, yes I was, and no it wasn't. (ever the best under Callahan)

    I've been cursing the OL since '09, and continued when I joined JI.[/QUOTE]

    Okay, as a Jets fan who has watched every Jets game for decades, how were you "cursing" the Jets o-line in 2009 when we led the league in rushing with Thomas Jones as our feature back?

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