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Thread: Wisconsin recall watch....

  1. #21
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    [QUOTE=Trades;4483698]Wow what can I say other than, THEN DON"T TEACH IN NYC! You chose to teach in a district where the community and kids don't care about education and yet you are surprised that you are unappreciated.

    When I have worked for companies that didn't give me the tools I felt I needed to do my job I went and found another job. If I felt underpaid I would get the skills needed to make more money and find another job. If I felt unappreciated I would find another job. You stamp your feet and complain that you are unappreciated and expect different results. How is that working out for you?

    It's funny, the law of supply and demand says that if supply outstrips demand price should go down until they equal out. We keep hearing teachers are underpaid while there are lines in the hundreds/thousands for each job that opens up. Why is that?

    Is the job so rewarding philosophically and emotionally that all of these people want to forgo money for the opportunity to teach our brats?[/QUOTE]

    What is your suggestion to do with all the poor and less fortunate students?

    Do they continue to get less?

    How will they ever get out of their economic situations?

  2. #22
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    [QUOTE=chiefst2000;4483704]Do you work in an NYC school? I have two uncles and an aunt that all worked in the city. Each retired before 60 with full pensions. The most recent of which had been earning 110K per year in working with special ed students prior to retirement. Your contribution to your retirement is minimal if it exists at all. Your pension is worth 75 to 80% of your salary. I doubt you kick in more then 5% if that. If you contribute it would have been due to Cuomo's reforms that may have kicked in this year and the amount is minuscule.

    Please share with us the exact figures. How many years on the job. What is the salary. How much do you kick in towards pension. What are the total dollars you will get in retirement. How many sick days and personal days do you get to take off each year. If you want to use yourself as an example you need only prove it with the numbers. What teaching job allows you to post on this website all throughout the day? How many periods do you actually work.[/QUOTE]

    :slam:

  3. #23
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    [QUOTE=copernicus;4483708]What is your suggestion to do with all the poor and less fortunate students?

    Do they continue to get less?

    How will they ever get out of their economic situations?[/QUOTE]

    School choice and vouchers to help some of them get out of the awful NYC public school system would be helpful. Spending more money on students and supplies and less on absurd teacher pensions that are bankrupting the tax payers would help as well.

  4. #24
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    [QUOTE=copernicus;4483708]What is your suggestion to do with all the poor and less fortunate students?

    Do they continue to get less?

    How will they ever get out of their economic situations?[/QUOTE]

    Wait, run this by me again how you have to "work a second job to barely survive".

  5. #25
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    [QUOTE=copernicus;4483708]What is your suggestion to do with all the poor and less fortunate students?

    Do they continue to get less?

    How will they ever get out of their economic situations?[/QUOTE]

    Same advice I have for you. Improve your own situation instead of crying and expecting others to improve it for you. Crazy, I know!!!

    If they don't want to leave their cesspool then they should work hard in the community to improve it. Start by changing or improving the perception of the value of community, family and education at home, create or join community outreach programs, start homework clubs, start walking your kids to school or police your school grounds if the administration isn't willing to get rid of the zoo atmosphere that impedes education, support school choice, run for the school board, join the PTA, start up a collection to help pay for items to donate, runa fundraiser to collect money to pay for items to donate but first and foremost STOP MAKING EXCUSES and don't chose to be a victim.

  6. #26
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    [QUOTE=chiefst2000;4483704]Do you work in an NYC school? I have two uncles and an aunt that all worked in the city. Each retired before 60 with full pensions. The most recent of which had been earning 110K per year in working with special ed students prior to retirement. Your contribution to your retirement is minimal if it exists at all. Your pension is worth 75 to 80% of your salary. I doubt you kick in more then 5% if that. If you contribute it would have been due to Cuomo's reforms that may have kicked in this year and the amount is minuscule.

    Please share with us the exact figures. How many years on the job. What is the salary. How much do you kick in towards pension. What are the total dollars you will get in retirement. How many sick days and personal days do you get to take off each year. If you want to use yourself as an example you need only prove it with the numbers. What teaching job allows you to post on this website all throughout the day? How many periods do you actually work.[/QUOTE]

    Your uncle's worked extremely hard to earn every penny of their pensions. They went to college and grad school, plus 30 credits above their masters degree to earn it. They are not handed this career with a high school diploma. All the while getting very little support from the system and public. It sounds so easy from the outside.

    Your uncle's sound like they are part of TIER I, much has changed since then. I am contributing 12% of my salary and am paying off the student loans for my masters degree plus 30 more credits above that. I will not collect my entire salary per year for my pension. I get 11 sick days a year. I cant take more than one at a time without documents. teachers can apply for personal days but rarely receive it. They are denied immediately by administrators. The misconception is that teachers are putting up their feet on the desk and collecting all this for free. I would never judge the importance of any other job, whether it is a civil service or private. Not the same for teachers, everyone seems to have an opinion.

  7. #27
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    [QUOTE=copernicus;4483753]Your uncle's worked extremely hard to earn every penny of their pensions. They went to college and grad school, plus 30 credits above their masters degree to earn it. They are not handed this career with a high school diploma. All the while getting very little support from the system and public. It sounds so easy from the outside.

    Your uncle's sound like they are part of TIER I, much has changed since then. I am contributing 12% of my salary and am paying off the student loans for my masters degree plus 30 more credits above that. I will not collect my entire salary per year for my pension. I get 11 sick days a year. I cant take more than one at a time without documents. teachers can apply for personal days but rarely receive it. They are denied immediately by administrators. The misconception is that teachers are putting up their feet on the desk and collecting all this for free. I would never judge the importance of any other job, whether it is a civil service or private. Not the same for teachers, everyone seems to have an opinion.[/QUOTE]

    Maybe that is because people are seeing their property taxes double or triple to cover the school budget while nothing improves in education and you even admit that schools are being so poorly mismanaged that teachers have to bring their own chalk. I know you feel taxpayers should sit down and shut up about where their money goes, too bad it doesn't work like that.

  8. #28
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    [QUOTE=copernicus;4483753]Not the same for teachers, everyone seems to have an opinion.[/QUOTE]

    We have an opinion because you serve us and we pay for your service.

    As such, damn right we have an opinion. Given the general failure of your services, the massive cost those services currently exact on the taxpayer, and the endless self-aggrandizing propaganda of the poor downtrodden Underpaid-Teacher-Martry-Saint, many of us taxpayers are quite sick of you and your endless whining, given you've got a vastly better fiscal deal than many of your equally educated, in many cases harder and longer working fellow citizens.

  9. #29
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    [QUOTE=chiefst2000;4483718]School choice and vouchers to help some of them get out of the awful NYC public school system would be helpful. Spending more money on students and supplies and less on absurd teacher pensions that are bankrupting the tax payers would help as well.[/QUOTE]

    You dont want to talk intelligently and just blame "absurd teacher pensions." I get it, blame the little guy, the worker. I am not complaining about my job, I am complaining about the people who want to now take it away. Why do we never blame the people who are in charge of the money? When was the last time something was taken from them before it was too late? Currently mayor Bloomberg, under his mayoral control, is continuing to create schools withing already existing school buildings. There are currently two schools inside my building. My building went from paying ONE principals salary to TWO, TWO assistant principal salaries to FOUR, and so on. This is happening all over NYC to compensate all the administrative positions that Mayor Bloomberg promised as favors. Millions of dollars wasted to unqualified administrators who come out of Bloomberg's principal's academy. We wouldnt have to worry as much about the lowly teacher's pensions if the stealing from the top was under control.

  10. #30
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    [QUOTE=copernicus;4483806]You dont want to talk intelligently and just blame "absurd teacher pensions." I get it, blame the little guy, the worker. I am not complaining about my job, I am complaining about the people who want to now take it away. Why do we never blame the people who are in charge of the money? When was the last time something was taken from them before it was too late? Currently mayor Bloomberg, under his mayoral control, is continuing to create schools withing already existing school buildings. There are currently two schools inside my building. My building went from paying ONE principals salary to TWO, TWO assistant principal salaries to FOUR, and so on. This is happening all over NYC to compensate all the administrative positions that Mayor Bloomberg promised as favors. Millions of dollars wasted to unqualified administrators who come out of Bloomberg's principal's academy. We wouldnt have to worry as much about the lowly teacher's pensions if the stealing from the top was under control.[/QUOTE]

    I don't think you will get any argument over the fact that there are problems at every level of public education in America today.

  11. #31
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    [QUOTE=Warfish;4483794]We have an opinion because you serve us and we pay for your service.

    As such, damn right we have an opinion. Given the general failure of your services, the massive cost those services currently exact on the taxpayer, and the endless self-aggrandizing propaganda of the poor downtrodden Underpaid-Teacher-Martry-Saint, many of us taxpayers are quite sick of you and your endless whining, given you've got a vastly better fiscal deal than many of your equally educated, in many cases harder and longer working fellow citizens.[/QUOTE]

    Well said but why try to reason with a Lib? Walker has done what is best for all people in his state. Yet the greedy Libs want only their pockets lined regardless of the burden it places on other taxpayers. I hope Walker wins and the greedy unions lose.


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  12. #32
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    [QUOTE=Trades;4483816]I don't think you will get any argument over the fact that there are problems at every level of public education in America today.[/QUOTE]

    That's it? So there are problems at every level? I get it, its much easier to blame the teacher rather than the absurd stealing going on from politicians. My job today, everyone's job tomorrow....

  13. #33
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    [QUOTE=copernicus;4483829]That's it? So there are problems at every level? I get it, its much easier to blame the teacher rather than the absurd stealing going on from politicians. My job today, everyone's job tomorrow....[/QUOTE]

    What do you mean, "that's it"? So you will only be happy if we are willing to give the teacher's carte blanche and blame politicians, parents, kids and administrators for the failing and expensive system? Everyone but the teachers and unions are at fault, right?

    Do you have anything to say for the point that the Wisconsin teacher's union required the state to buy medical benefits at an inflated price from a union run insurance company? You don't see anything wrong with that? We should all just be happy that you deem us worthy to teach our kids?

    I notice you didn't respond to my post calling for personal responsibility for parents and teachers.

  14. #34
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    [QUOTE=copernicus;4483829]That's it? So there are problems at every level? I get it, its much easier to blame the teacher rather than the absurd stealing going on from politicians. My job today, everyone's job tomorrow....[/QUOTE]

    How about we blame both?

    The dirty Union-owned Liberal Politicans, and the dirty Union (and it's members) milking the public for benefits and total compensation well in excess of the private sector equivalents, for 2/3 a years work and a horrible track record of consistent failure at doing what you're paid to do, educate american kids.

    Just because Politicians are corrupt, and your Union complicit, doesn;t make you, the end recipient of alot of these thigns, blameless, especially when you (general you, not you specificly) do such a bad job for what we pay for.

    Look, you want a job where the taxpayer doesn't get a say, come on and join the private sector. We'll see how bad you think teaching is then.

  15. #35
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    [QUOTE=Warfish;4483837]How about we blame both?

    The dirty Union-owned Liberal Politicans, and the dirty Union (and it's members) milking the public for benefits and total compensation well in excess of the private sector equivalents, for 2/3 a years work and a horrible track record of consistent failure at doing what you're paid to do, educate american kids.

    Just because Politicians are corrupt, and your Union complicit, doesn;t make you, the end recipient of alot of these thigns, blameless, especially when you (general you, not you specificly) do such a bad job for what we pay for.

    Look, you want a job where the taxpayer doesn't get a say, come on and join the private sector. We'll see how bad you think teaching is then.[/QUOTE]

    Isn't the union member by their own definition of the collective complicit and responsible for the actions of their union "bosses"/representatives?

  16. #36
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    [QUOTE=copernicus;4483806]You dont want to talk intelligently and just blame "absurd teacher pensions." I get it, blame the little guy, the worker. I am not complaining about my job, I am complaining about the people who want to now take it away. Why do we never blame the people who are in charge of the money? When was the last time something was taken from them before it was too late? Currently mayor Bloomberg, under his mayoral control, is continuing to create schools withing already existing school buildings. There are currently two schools inside my building. My building went from paying ONE principals salary to TWO, TWO assistant principal salaries to FOUR, and so on. This is happening all over NYC to compensate all the administrative positions that Mayor Bloomberg promised as favors. Millions of dollars wasted to unqualified administrators who come out of Bloomberg's principal's academy. We wouldnt have to worry as much about the lowly teacher's pensions if the stealing from the top was under control.[/QUOTE]

    When I live in Rockland County NY and we get a notice that our tiny county has to borrow 80Million dollars (thats 50% of total tax collections) to cover a pension shortfall then I have the right, nay obligation, to call it what it is.

    I will speak from an actuarial perspective for a second. The government has put in an assumption of 8% growth in the markets to calculate the cost of your pension. The problem is that the 8% figure uses a faulty assumption. They took an average of 50 years returns on the markets. They found that going back 50 years a diversified portfolio in the markets returned an average of 8%. Look back 50 years to see the problem. After WW2 we had built up a massive industrial complex. The rest of the 1st world economies were in tatters. While they rebuilt we moved forward. With relatively little competetion the US soared in growth. The markets went along for the ride. Politicians gambled with your pension promise. They hoped they'd beat the 8% returns and actually get savings. For the past 12 years we have had an average annual return on a diversified portfolio of approximately 1%. Hence the dilema.

  17. #37
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    [QUOTE=Kentucky Jet;4483827]Well said but why try to reason with a Lib? Walker has done what is best for all people in his state. Yet the greedy Libs want only their pockets lined regardless of the burden it places on other taxpayers. I hope Walker wins and the greedy unions lose.


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    You are so misinformed. You do realize that at one point in our country we had no labor laws right? What do you think happens when/if the teacher's union is defeated by the side with all the power and money? What do you think happens at businesses in regards to their workers? A very short time ago kids worked in factories with NO BENEFITS. Only a few wealthy people controlled everything. Arent we getting dangerously close to that presently? Funny how I presented an absolute way to cut millions of dollars and show how wealthy politicians are using YOUR tax money to fill the pockets of their friends who are now unqualified administrators but still the message is " bash the teachers." I get it, its just easier than actually taking time to see what is really going on.............

  18. #38
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    [QUOTE=copernicus;4483871]You are so misinformed. You do realize that at one point in our country we had no labor laws right? What do you think happens when/if the teacher's union is defeated by the side with all the power and money? What do you think happens at businesses in regards to their workers? A very short time ago kids worked in factories with NO BENEFITS. Only a few wealthy people controlled everything. Arent we getting dangerously close to that presently? Funny how I presented an absolute way to cut millions of dollars and show how wealthy politicians are using YOUR tax money to fill the pockets of their friends who are now unqualified administrators but still the message is " bash the teachers." I get it, its just easier than actually taking time to see what is really going on.............[/QUOTE]

    Just like the Tebow threads, you're now just spouting jibberish and ignoring what others post. It' baffles me how bad you've become in so short a time as a poster, from literally Forum Top 5, maybe even #1 in the Strip, to....I can't even say how bad. Yellow Submarine bad.

    1. Era of "No Labor Law" and "Children in Factories" is irrelevant to the situation today and topic at hand. To even compare Teachers today to that era is offensive. Just because Unions once served a vital purpose does not make what they get now appropriate, nor does it mean Unions could nto swing the pendulum too far in the other direction, which is one complaint we taxpayers are raising.

    2. No, we are not close to "a few people own everything". And even if we are, it has no relevance to what Teachers or Administrators get paid in total compensation.

    3. The message is not "bash teachers" and no one is ignoring that there are far too many Administrators paid far too much. The message is "education costs the taxpayer far too much for what we get", and it needs looked at from top to bottom. Yes, less administrators, but also yes, potentially less compensation for Teachers and less protection from dicipline.

  19. #39
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    [QUOTE=copernicus;4483871]You are so misinformed. You do realize that at one point in our country we had no labor laws right? What do you think happens when/if the teacher's union is defeated by the side with all the power and money? What do you think happens at businesses in regards to their workers? A very short time ago kids worked in factories with NO BENEFITS. Only a few wealthy people controlled everything. Arent we getting dangerously close to that presently? Funny how I presented an absolute way to cut millions of dollars and show how wealthy politicians are using YOUR tax money to fill the pockets of their friends who are now unqualified administrators but still the message is " bash the teachers." I get it, its just easier than actually taking time to see what is really going on.............[/QUOTE]

    Here is where you are misinformed. We already know what happens when businesses are not unionized. They succeed and their employees are paid well. The machinists in Boeing's South Carolina plant agree. We also know what happens in public unions when collective bargaining rights over benefits are struck down. We have the example in Wisconsin. Teachers salaries remain the same. They kick in more for their benefits. Schools have extra money to hire more teachers and reduce class sizes. The reality has proven different from your hypotheses.

  20. #40
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    [QUOTE=copernicus;4483871]You are so misinformed. You do realize that at one point in our country we had no labor laws right? What do you think happens when/if the teacher's union is defeated by the side with all the power and money? What do you think happens at businesses in regards to their workers? A very short time ago kids worked in factories with NO BENEFITS. Only a few wealthy people controlled everything. Arent we getting dangerously close to that presently? [B]Funny how I presented an absolute way to cut millions of dollars and show how wealthy politicians are using YOUR tax money to fill the pockets of their friends who are now unqualified administrators[/B] but still the message is " bash the teachers." I get it, its just easier than actually taking time to see what is really going on.............[/QUOTE]

    I must have missed that post... seriously, if you did, please link or repost.

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