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Thread: Indiana legalizes shooting cops

  1. #41
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    [QUOTE=32green;4490515]Precisley.

    And honestly, no matter how much money you throw into hiring and training cops...the bottom line is that most of the encounters covered by this law will involve 1 or two cops arriving lawfully at the doorstep of some loon intent on protecting his castle at all costs (unbeknownst to them)....and believing the law is on his side.

    You cant have a SWAT team dispatched for the millions of encounters that happen in this country every year.... nor will the poleez routinely have (or require) a search warrant in many cases.

    Its a recipe for disaster where the negatives vastly outweigh the positives.

    -[/QUOTE]

    I see what you're saying. Thanks.

  2. #42
    [QUOTE=32green;4490468]In a perfect world where you know what you are dealing with prior to each encounter, sure.

    For example, I would cite the Mass. cop killed last week during a domestic.

    In hindsite, he should have arrived with a SWAT team and a hostage negotiator, but the realities of small town policing, minimum manning and the fact that virtually every encounter is rife with unknowns... sealed his fate. ( I realize it wasnt the perps "home", I use this example of the unknowns inherant in so many poleez encounters)

    Now, had the perp. survived the encounter, some posters in this thread would be satisfied that a jury would find that he wasnt entitled to kill the cop in this particular situation, thus justifying the law.

    Bottom line here, whether a jury decides, after the fact whether a cop killing was justified, there will be more cops and more civilians killed because of this law, which to me...... is hardly worth the "individual liberties" it purportedly champions.


    -[/QUOTE]

    Police enter homes for all kinds of reasons. Presumably when they are entering involving a criminal matter a warrant is needed. When they are entering to provide emergency services or a dispute in the house they are presumably being invited in by a party in the house for a very limited and legal purpose.

    I'm guessing every domestic is potentially dangerous regardless of the legal invite from one of the parties?

  3. #43
    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;4490476]Violent crime is tied to the demographics of 18 to 35 year old men. So much of the BS spouted about crime stats, policing and lock up are pure nonesense.

    When the male population of in your prime hormonal retards drops crime drops, when it goes up it goes up.[/QUOTE]


    As the number of 18-35 are put in prison through proper profiling in higher crime area, yes, overall crime WILL go down.
    Police are not goint to break into my home or my children's. We are respected community members and have never been cited for anything other than a speeding ticket (deserved) 32 years ago.
    The people running a meth lab with the corresponding odor RAID - with the battering ram.

  4. #44
    [QUOTE=palmetto defender;4490588]As the number of 18-35 are put in prison through proper profiling in higher crime area, yes, overall crime WILL go down.
    Police are not goint to break into my home or my children's. We are respected community members and have never been cited for anything other than a speeding ticket (deserved) 32 years ago.
    The people running a meth lab with the corresponding odor RAID - with the battering ram.[/QUOTE]

    I grew up in a respectable community and the Police took us home when we were involved in criminal behavior they didn't break down our doors to lock us up.

    The police in respectable communities serve the function of protecting your children not locking them up and turning them into career criminals.

  5. #45
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    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;4490610]I grew up in a respectable community and the Police took us home when we were involved in criminal behavior they didn't break down our doors to lock us up.

    The police in respectable communities serve the function of protecting your children not locking them up and turning them into career criminals.[/QUOTE]

    Not to stray too far off topic, but what exactly is a "respectable" community?

  6. #46
    [QUOTE=JetPotato;4490618]Not to stray too far off topic, but what exactly is a "respectable" community?[/QUOTE]

    Many of the small towns in Metro NY have their own police forces including many of the wealthier smaller sub communities. Many of these police forces deliver kids from upper income homes to their parents doors when cars are driven drunk, drugs found and all kinds of other none violent criminal behavior. Many of the kids from urban areas and from poorer neighborhoods don't get this special protection from the larger police departments.

    Not to mention that lawyers are employeed to keep the records of many of these upper middle class kids clean.

  7. #47
    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;4490610]I grew up in a respectable community and the Police took us home when we were involved in criminal behavior they didn't break down our doors to lock us up.

    The police in respectable communities serve the function of protecting your children not locking them up and turning them into career criminals.[/QUOTE]


    Not to be rude, but if the police were escorting YOU home after you were involved in criminal activity, 1. They already HAD you and didn't need to break down anything and 2. I understand your "police are not great" attitude. It seems you have an ax to grind with authority?
    The police in ANY community are not there to protect children who are a problem but to protect citizens from lawbreakers. If the crime is minor a fine perhaps is deserved. If it calls for prison, that's fair according to the statutes.

  8. #48
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    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;4490646]Many of the small towns in Metro NY have their own police forces including many of the wealthier smaller sub communities. Many of these police forces deliver kids from upper income homes to their parents doors when cars are driven drunk, drugs found and all kinds of other none violent criminal behavior. Many of the kids from urban areas and from poorer neighborhoods don't get this special protection from the larger police departments.

    Not to mention that lawyers are employeed to keep the records of many of these upper middle class kids clean.[/QUOTE]

    I'm still missing the part that makes them more respectable

  9. #49
    [QUOTE=JetPotato;4490656]I'm still missing the part that makes them more respectable[/QUOTE]

    Bad term. The upper middle class and rich.

  10. #50
    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;4490610]I grew up in a respectable community and the Police took us home when we were involved in criminal behavior they didn't break down our doors to lock us up.

    The police in respectable communities serve the function of protecting your children not locking them up and turning them into career criminals.[/QUOTE]

    It's usually not the kids police are worried about, its their sh1tty parents. :D

  11. #51
    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;4490646]Many of the small towns in Metro NY have their own police forces including many of the wealthier smaller sub communities. Many of these police forces deliver kids from upper income homes to their parents doors when cars are driven drunk, drugs found and all kinds of other none violent criminal behavior. Many of the kids from urban areas and from poorer neighborhoods don't get this special protection from the larger police departments.

    Not to mention that lawyers are employeed to keep the records of many of these upper middle class kids clean.[/QUOTE]


    I grew up with a friend who became a police officer. Had some Vietnam related problems after the fact (drinking). Off duty, just sitting in his car, not driving, had a few, arrested. In his own jurisdiction - a large one. Fair.
    Brother in law, executive type, a couple too many driving. Jail. Fair.
    Zero tolerance. If we tolerate, we lower standards (which we have). Result - crime.

  12. #52
    [QUOTE=palmetto defender;4490655]Not to be rude, but if the police were escorting YOU home after you were involved in criminal activity, 1. They already HAD you and didn't need to break down anything and 2. I understand your "police are not great" attitude. It seems you have an ax to grind with authority?
    The police in ANY community are not there to protect children who are a problem but to protect citizens from lawbreakers. If the crime is minor a fine perhaps is deserved. If it calls for prison, that's fair according to the statutes.[/QUOTE]



    The police in many communities including the one I choose to live in most certainly don't turn kids who could be cited for criminal behavior into criminals and the most certainly do in other communities. That's why I live where I live and I do resent the fact that I pay a high price for that Authority to be tempered with good sense.

  13. #53
    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;4490684]The police in many communities including the one I choose to live in most certainly don't turn kids who could be cited for criminal behavior into criminals and the most certainly do in other communities. That's why I live where I live and I do resent the fact that I pay a high price for that Authority to be tempered with good sense.[/QUOTE]


    Police do not turn kids into criminals. Maybe parents do. Or peers.

    I like authority. I like the police. I treat them with the highest level of respect at all times and always have.
    If they have to resort to kicking some butt or using a club, more often than not, it is warranted. Obviously, there are a few bad cops who get carried away. As individuals, rarely as a group.
    Police here are quicker with a gun than in Metro NY. Have not seen one yet get into trouble for it. Even one who ran down a felling felon with his patrol car. Justified and exonerated.

  14. #54
    [QUOTE=palmetto defender;4490722]Police do not turn kids into criminals. Maybe parents do. Or peers.

    I like authority. I like the police. I treat them with the highest level of respect at all times and always have.
    If they have to resort to kicking some butt or using a club, more often than not, it is warranted. Obviously, there are a few bad cops who get carried away. As individuals, rarely as a group.
    Police here are quicker with a gun than in Metro NY. Have not seen one yet get into trouble for it. Even one who ran down a felling felon with his patrol car. Justified and exonerated.[/QUOTE]

    Since when is challenging the how, when and where authority is used disrespectful?

    Zero tolerance isn't just wrong it's unproductive and socially irresponsible. We don't need to turn kids into criminals when a helping hand can turn many of them into productive, contributing members of society. Some kids need a kick in the pants, some need a hug of encouragement and some direction for a better path forward.

    Authority that can't distinguish the difference just like crappy parents it's not just destructive and costly, it's grinding on the entire society and creates huge economic and social drag by needlessly turning what could be productive members of society into a permanent burden.

    Authority in the form of the police, justice system and military, like all our institutions is subject to the same corruption, inefficiency and inhumane treatment as all of our societal institutions.

    There should be a reason they are respected and that reason is they protect us from harm while they respect our rights and they have enough flexibility to know the difference. Most of them do, many of them don’t and without the public demanding those that don’t are weeded out authority like the rest of our governmental institutions, business institutions, Teachers, Cops, etc., etc., etc… will continue to be looked at with contempt. Look at how our own President and Congress is viewed it’s not a good thing at all. Nothing wrong with Authority when it’s tempered with compassion and doesn't exceed it's authority.

  15. #55
    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;4490763]Since when is challenging the how, when and where authority is used disrespectful?

    Zero tolerance isn't just wrong it's unproductive and socially irresponsible. We don't need to turn kids into criminals when a helping hand can turn many of them into productive, contributing members of society. Some kids need a kick in the pants, some need a hug of encouragement and some direction for a better path forward.

    Authority that can't distinguish the difference just like crappy parents it's not just destructive and costly, it's grinding on the entire society and creates huge economic and social drag by needlessly turning what could be productive members of society into a permanent burden.

    Authority in the form of the police, justice system and military, like all our institutions is subject to the same corruption, inefficiency and inhumane treatment as all of our societal institutions.

    There should be a reason they are respected and that reason is they protect us from harm while they respect our rights and they have enough flexibility to know the difference. Most of them do, many of them don’t and without the public demanding those that don’t are weeded out authority like the rest of our governmental institutions, business institutions, Teachers, Cops, etc., etc., etc… will continue to be looked at with contempt. Look at how our own President and Congress is viewed it’s not a good thing at all. Nothing wrong with Authority when it’s tempered with compassion and doesn't exceed it's authority.[/QUOTE]


    Let's just say i am more experienced than you on these matters and actually see productivity. With the military: I was an officer. Had a fair number of men. Disobey or break a rule - that'll cost you a rank and 2-4 weeks salary. More - the brig. As long as people know the rules - great.
    pad your expense account in biz or steal. See ya. No severence and forget about a reference. Plus with cause =NO unemployment.
    Compassion is when a HS wide receiver drops a pass or a RB put one on the ground.
    Molesting a girl. Summary expulsion and time in someplace with bars.
    Rob a Subway with a gun at 17. See you in 10-15. Happened in this area 5 years ago. I don't care if he comes out bad. He'll be going right back for 15-20.

    police do not make the rules. They enforce them. A kid out too late may get a liottle police advice. One vandalizing cars deserves no slack.

  16. #56
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    [QUOTE=32green;4490248][B]Problem is, if we let criminals decide what "legal entry" by law enforcement is, we are going to end up with alot more dead civilians and cops.[/B]
    I know a little bit about this subject, and many would be surprised how many stone cold "wrong" civilians...actually believe they are right at the time of arrest.... or summonsing.

    Its a truism of law enforcement.

    I dont deny there are bad cops, bad poleez depts etc....but stupidity on their part can often be addressed through the courts, civilly and otherwise.

    Now, many of these encounters may never get that far.

    Call the Coroner.


    This ruling will only serve to add to the body count.[/QUOTE]

    +10000000000000

    Regardless of intent this law will result in dead cops (and homeowners.)

    Idiotic.

  17. #57
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    Relevant for the OP

    [url]http://www.homes.com/Real_Estate/Counties/IN/[/url]

  18. #58
    [QUOTE=palmetto defender;4490861]Let's just say i am more experienced than you on these matters and actually see productivity. With the military: I was an officer. Had a fair number of men. Disobey or break a rule - that'll cost you a rank and 2-4 weeks salary. More - the brig. As long as people know the rules - great.
    pad your expense account in biz or steal. See ya. No severence and forget about a reference. Plus with cause =NO unemployment.
    Compassion is when a HS wide receiver drops a pass or a RB put one on the ground.
    Molesting a girl. Summary expulsion and time in someplace with bars.
    Rob a Subway with a gun at 17. See you in 10-15. Happened in this area 5 years ago. I don't care if he comes out bad. He'll be going right back for 15-20.

    police do not make the rules. They enforce them. A kid out too late may get a liottle police advice. One vandalizing cars deserves no slack.[/QUOTE]

    The military has more suicides than war deaths right now. Not a very impressive example of a rigid society being effective in making productive citizens. The police state mentality you advocate has been tried in the past in Europe and it's not a very successful model.

  19. #59
    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;4491187]The military has more suicides than war deaths right now. Not a very impressive example of a rigid society being effective in making productive citizens. The police state mentality you advocate has been tried in the past in Europe and it's not a very successful model.[/QUOTE]


    You're like some of the people I had in my ad agency who used data to prove a point (to get more $) but let logic and facts betray them.
    There have been around 4500 daths in Iraq and 2000 in Afghanistan.
    You mean over 6500 suicides? Really? Caught in your own BS.
    There are suicides and always will be, In a war zone? Anywhere? Still in or out of the sevice.
    You ar e a bleeding heart lib. One of your kids recently arrested? You? No Rules = disaster Keep looking for ways to beat the system.

  20. #60
    [QUOTE=cr726;4490414]911 call comes in and the officer is given the wrong address for person being raped in a home. The officer rushes in and is shot because the resident believed the officer was there illegally. And on and on and on. Cops have a difficult job and now they have to worry when they respond to a call or serve a search warrant there is a criminal lying in wait for them because now they have a law that supports their "belief". I have yet executed a search warrant where the persons inside the house state "Yup you got me this is the right house and I am a criminal". I have executed hundreds of search and arrest warrants.[/QUOTE]

    This would be a very sad set of circumstances. In this case though, wouldn't the officer be in the home owners home illegally, albeit because of a mistake or miscommunication within the law enforcement agency? Should the home owner who fired at a home intruder be guilty of murder?

    Let me explore two additional scenarios, and see if you feel the same way. A criminal intent on robbing a home owner disguises himself as a police officer and proceeds to burglarize the house. [url=http://www.huntspost.co.uk/news/latest-news/fake_police_officers_suspected_of_burglaries_in_cambs_1_1386068] it happens [/url]. Should homeowners have to worry about whether or not a criminal has ties to the police when defending thier home?

    What if i observe what i believe to be a criminal entering my neighbors house in the middle of the night. I hear or see signs of distress and hurry through the front door only to be shot by the homeowner. Is he or she now guilty of murder after i entered their home illegally. Even though it was with the best intentions, due to a misunderstanding?

    I still do not see any negative consequences associated with this law.

    [QUOTE=32green;4490468]In a perfect world where you know what you are dealing with prior to each encounter, sure.

    For example, I would cite the Mass. cop killed last week during a domestic.

    In hindsite, he should have arrived with a SWAT team and a hostage negotiator, but the realities of small town policing, minimum manning and the fact that virtually every encounter is rife with unknowns... sealed his fate. ( I realize it wasnt the perps "home", I use this example of the unknowns inherant in so many poleez encounters)

    Now, had the perp. survived the encounter, some posters in this thread would be satisfied that a jury would find that he wasnt entitled to kill the cop in this particular situation, thus justifying the law.

    Bottom line here, whether a jury decides, after the fact whether a cop killing was justified, there will be more cops and more civilians killed because of this law, which to me...... is hardly worth the "individual liberties" it purportedly champions.


    -[/QUOTE]
    As you admit this happened in a state without the law in question, and wouldn't have been in any way covered by the law in question. Officers get killed in the line of duty. The excuses change, that doesn't mean that this law will result in any additional shootings, it just means there will be a new justification to choose from in the court room. To imply that a legal defense chosen after a crime has taken place necessarily had some impact on the decision to commit that crime is post hoc fallacy of the highest degrees.

    But i will admit that i disagree with the last line as well. "one is too many" can be used to strike down any position you wish. One cop dying in the line of duty is tragic, but can not be the benchmark on which public policy is judged.

    One innocent person sent to prison is a tragic horrible thing, but we cannot stop prosecuting crime in our society. One criminal released after capture due to a technicality or stupidity in the jury room is an abomination, but we cannot stop enforcing laws and including our population in the justice Process

    indecently cr726, i think some of the "paranoia" your speak of has to due with the fact that when legislation is passed to insure that while off duty or behaving in an illegal manner cops are subject to the same laws and penalties as the rest of the population. It is invariably condemned by members of the law enforcement community as unnecessary, or presenting additional risk to officers. For every "paranoid" nutcase out there that believes the police are out to get everyone. There is an delusional optimist that believes our law enforcement officers are all paragons of society above reproach. There are criminals in law enforcement just like in every other profession, and yes i do believe i ought to be entitled to shoot them if they enter my home illegally.

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