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Thread: NYC Standardized Spanish Exam

  1. #81
    [QUOTE=copernicus;4497572]I am not against all standardized tests. I believe a regents exam at the end of a school year in specific subjects is reasonable. I think the scores could be used as a tool for administrators to help teachers. But the tests today are administered as a business for the government to justify why all unions are bad. They are created awful with a purpose. Why else would they be fighting so hard EVERY DAY in the media to have it weigh more with teacher retention? [/QUOTE]

    Because the Teachers' Union fought so hard to prevent the firing of teachers who were assessed to be poor performers by arguing that the negative assessments were the product of bias or subjective judgments that should not have been trusted, and used those arguments to prevent or significantly delay the removal of poor teachers.

    You can't have it both ways. The teachers wanted objective measures - or at least claimed they were necessary to evaluations of teacher performance, when those measures were unavailable. Now that those measures are there, the union is taking the opposite stand.

    Again, the union needs to stop being the "party of no" and come up with what they contend is a fair system of teacher evaluation that will both be workable and will allow for rewarding good teachers and disciplining bad teachers.

    As long as the DOE is the only side in this argument with any plan to do that, the public will continue to side with the DOE.

  2. #82
    [QUOTE=copernicus;4497514]One metric? LOL, doesnt feel that way. Presently, students in NYC who fail all year long, are disrespectful, with behavior and safety issues but pass the second state exam are promoted. You see the second state exam is for kids who fail the first or main one, it is much easier and does not give credit to the classroom teacher when the student passes. The government gets the best of both worlds, teachers fail the first one, kids are promoted on the second one. In other cases there are students who do the right thing all year, hand in every project, are kind and considerate. If they fail both, they are LEFT BACK!!! Think of the irreversible damage that would do tho a kid who is left back failing two test that are proven to have major mistakes throughout. The standardize tests under mind every teacher in their quest to teach academic and social skills. We have about 10 cases in the sixth grade alone where AWFUL kids are being promoted without even summer school and GOOD students are being LEFT BACK.[/quote]

    Cool - have the TU propose a different metric to use. But the "merit can't be measured" argument you are using is a [B]loser[/B], both from a practical standpoint and from a PR standpoint.


    [QUOTE]Sure, I will gladly take a pay cut. I tell you what, my babysitter charges me 10 dollars an hour to watch my child. I would take half of that at $5 an hour to watch and even teach the students each day. I work 7 hours a day (8am to 3pm) and see 210 students for one hour each per day. Want to do the math? Still think Im paid too much?
    [/QUOTE]

    Please tell me you are not a math teacher. Babysitters are paid per hour, not per child (unless yours has been swindling you all these years).

    Again, you're missing the point.

    If there's no way to tell the difference between a good teacher and a bad teacher, then teachers should be paid minimum wage (or the minimum wage for which sufficient people, regardless of education or training, will do the job) - since all people are equally qualified to teach, since they'll all get the same results.

    If, on the other hand, the difference between a good and bad teacher is identifiable, then it behooves [B]everyone[/B] with an interest in the education system to develop ways of identifying good and bad teachers, and paying and treating them accordingly.

    Do you disagree? If so, on what basis do you support the assertion that it is useless to identify good and bad teachers?


    [QUOTE]Principals? teachers? Here we go again? You think they are not getting orders from the very top (Politicians)? But yeah, I get it, fire the teacher, fire worker!
    [/QUOTE]

    Guess what - "I was just following orders" is no excuse for unethical behavior. If those orders are coming down from above, blow the whistle to the local paper and refuse to follow through.

    If you don't have the guts to do that, then for damn sure I want you nowhere near my child's education, because that one lesson in morality is more important than just about any other substantive aspect of education.

    [QUOTE]
    I worked in a private school. The worst case in a private school has SOMEONE who cares to pay their tuition, if the student doesnt turn it around and are so out of control they are dismissed. Guess where that student winds up? PUBLIC SCHOOL, with far worse cases who dont have ANY adult who cares for them. Not even comparable. [/QUOTE]

    And I've been in and have kids in private school. Many of the kids there are scholarship kids with nobody to pay their tuition - and the school bends over backwards to avoid expelling problem kids, because there is a religious imperative to ensure that they get a religious education.

    [QUOTE]
    Yeah, tell that to the students in my school who are being left back unjustly. Ask them and their parents if they are happy that the teacher's union fought for tenure so that tenured teachers can defend and speak up on behalf of their kids and let the media and others who can possibly help correct this. No tenure, no teacher in their right mind would cross the government's policies.[/QUOTE]

    Yeah, way to completely ignore the point. Good teachers [B]should[/B] have limited tenure (tenure stays as long as they remain good teachers). But bad teachers shouldn't have tenure. Do you disagree?

    If so, then with all due respect, you're a moron (so I assume you agree that poor teachers should not get tenure). If not (as I said, I assume not), then you [B]must[/B] agree that it is imperative to be able to tell the good teachers from the bad. And that means there needs to be some way to measure it.

    If not, then [B]no[/B] teacher should have tenure.

    [QUOTE]Possibly. But again, you are not factoring in socio-economic, hormonal, attitude, growth, and maturity issues from year to year
    [/QUOTE]

    All of which can be controlled for. "Don't measure us this way, measure us this alternative, fairer way - and here's why it's a superior alternative" - is a rallying cry that will gain public support.

    "Don't measure us at all" is a rallying cry that has earned public derision.

    The union can choose which it wants to push in the future - but what's that they say about repeating the same act and expecting different results?


    [QUOTE]How would you measure "reaching?" There are thousands of variables. This is where you want your tax payer money spent? Scoring teachers year to year with data that doesnt tell much of the story? This instead of new school buildings to alleviate over crowding? textbooks? sports teams? and other resources that can truly help?
    [/QUOTE]

    Yes, absolutely - I want some portion of my tax money spent to ensure that the remainder is being spent wisely, on teachers who can teach effectively.

    "Stop overseeing us!" is not going to win the day, Cop . . . and if you harbor any contrary delusions, I don't know what to tell you.


    [QUOTE]President Bush's NCLB lowered the criteria to get out of special ed. This was done to get rid of more special ed teachers because in many cases students are in classes that are much smaller than general ed.[/QUOTE]

    Actually, it was done because too many kids were being shuffled off to special ed and left to rot there when they could have benefited from General Ed if provided with appropriate supplemental aids and services.

    This isn't really a discussion you're in a good place to have with me; as a parent in a legal dispute with the CPSE over my son's IEP (he is an absurdly bright kid who has ADHD related behavioral issues that are getting better with therapy and don't interfere with learning if he has a para, but the CSE is insisting that he be placed in a self-contained special ed classroom on the theory that is "less restrictive" than a para . . . which is nonsense under the law), I'm very familiar with the inner workings of the IDEA Act, parents and school rights in connection with special ed, etc. - in ways you seem not to be.

    [QUOTE] Special Ed students now are in general ed classrooms along with other students who should be in special ed but whose parents refuse to have them tested.[/QUOTE]

    The school has a right to evaluate even if the parent refuses to consent if it follows the legal processes for obtaining an evaluation - bringing the parent to mediation and seeking due process review.

    [QUOTE] Under NCLB there are very little consequences for students. If the government recognizes these obvious problems they have to address them. [/QUOTE]

    Yes, it does.

    [QUOTE]Its much easier to blame the teacher's classroom managment skills.[/QUOTE]

    And a teacher can recommend an evaluation, at which point the CSE is required by law to follow up.

    [QUOTE]Go take a tour of an average public school in NYC. Observe the bizarre behavior by students who have no adult in their life to guide them other than the teachers. See how violent and abusive they can be. Then get back to me if you think its reasonable to blame the teacher in most cases.
    [/QUOTE]

    Violence and misguided behavior does not = shove the kid off to special ed.

    And again, you're missing the point. It's not about blame, or particular students. Good teachers do better than average (measured against the same student population), overall, with the students they get. Poor teachers do worse. It's imperative to identify which is which.


    [QUOTE]Teachers every year are reminded by their administrators to not fail more than 20% of the students no matter what. I may not be able to be fired on the spot, but I do have bosses that will make life miserable if I dont comply. The administrators answers are often along the lines of "this comes from above me." Thank god I have tenure and can at the very least voice my displeasure, that might lead to some sort of change. [/QUOTE]

    Or you could use your tenure to do the right thing because it's the right thing.

    Of course, if more than 20% of the students are failing, its fair to ask whether the grading is appropriate to the grade level; that's the nature of curves. But students who refuse to do the work at all should fail, regardless of how many there are.



    [QUOTE]Again, cant be fired, but boy can my bosses make life miserable if I dont comply. [/QUOTE]

    And boy can you sue for retaliation. All beside the point. If you only do the right thing when it's easy, you have no business teaching students how to behave. Anyone can do the right thing when it's easy. Good people - the kind I want molding my kids, that we as a society want molding our kids - do what's right whether it is easy or hard.

    [quote]Even tenured teachers have to be careful of what they want to voice their displeasure about. From moldy classrooms to unruly students, there are many ways to get back at teachers who dont tote the company line. 98 degrees the last two days in NYC, didnt use one snow day, half our school has classrooms with no air conditioning, mayor didnt even think of the kids who severe health problems like asthma. Think the teachers who dont comply with the principal's demands get to work in air conditioned rooms on 98 degree days like today?.............[/QUOTE]

    And that's supposed to make me sympathize with you for putting what's easier for you ahead of what's best for your students.

  3. #83
    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;4497597]We all know the system has value depending on what kind of educated citizens we produce. Producing better educated citizens will also produce more revenue. Producing less educated citizens will produce less revenue and teachers pay should go down accordingly.

    This entire issue is about revenue and value based on results. Either produce more productive people or figure out how you want to split a reduced spend. The Teachers Union can split the pie anyway they want to but in the end if they don't get good results the revenue stream for the communities the work in is going to go down and so should their pay.

    The Teachers Union better figure this out because without results there membership is going to suffer.[/QUOTE]

    Producing educated citizens creates more opportunities for individuals to leave communities and seek better opportunities elsewhere.

    With this issue, I think we're confusing administrative issues with educational ones. If budgets were mishandled and come up short, Iím not sure how tinkering with teacher evaluations resolves budgetary issues, unless the goal is to create revenue through lay-offs. Otherwise, youíre disturbing the classroom and spending limited revenue looking for areas to cut spending. If salaries and pensions of teachers need to be readjusted for economic reasons outside the classroom then thatís an argument independent of how they perform in the classroom. Why spend revenue micromanaging the classroom when the issue is administrative?

    On the other hand, if weíre looking to improve the quality of our students, then the classroom is fair game and we should be discussing the effectiveness of our teachers.

  4. #84
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    [QUOTE=doggin94it;4497653]Cool - have the TU propose a different metric to use. But the "merit can't be measured" argument you are using is a [B]loser[/B], both from a practical standpoint and from a PR standpoint.




    Please tell me you are not a math teacher. Babysitters are paid per hour, not per child (unless yours has been swindling you all these years).

    Again, you're missing the point.

    If there's no way to tell the difference between a good teacher and a bad teacher, then teachers should be paid minimum wage (or the minimum wage for which sufficient people, regardless of education or training, will do the job) - since all people are equally qualified to teach, since they'll all get the same results.

    If, on the other hand, the difference between a good and bad teacher is identifiable, then it behooves [B]everyone[/B] with an interest in the education system to develop ways of identifying good and bad teachers, and paying and treating them accordingly.

    Do you disagree? If so, on what basis do you support the assertion that it is useless to identify good and bad teachers?




    Guess what - "I was just following orders" is no excuse for unethical behavior. If those orders are coming down from above, blow the whistle to the local paper and refuse to follow through.

    If you don't have the guts to do that, then for damn sure I want you nowhere near my child's education, because that one lesson in morality is more important than just about any other substantive aspect of education.



    And I've been in and have kids in private school. Many of the kids there are scholarship kids with nobody to pay their tuition - and the school bends over backwards to avoid expelling problem kids, because there is a religious imperative to ensure that they get a religious education.



    Yeah, way to completely ignore the point. Good teachers [B]should[/B] have limited tenure (tenure stays as long as they remain good teachers). But bad teachers shouldn't have tenure. Do you disagree?

    If so, then with all due respect, you're a moron (so I assume you agree that poor teachers should not get tenure). If not (as I said, I assume not), then you [B]must[/B] agree that it is imperative to be able to tell the good teachers from the bad. And that means there needs to be some way to measure it.

    If not, then [B]no[/B] teacher should have tenure.



    All of which can be controlled for. "Don't measure us this way, measure us this alternative, fairer way - and here's why it's a superior alternative" - is a rallying cry that will gain public support.

    "Don't measure us at all" is a rallying cry that has earned public derision.

    The union can choose which it wants to push in the future - but what's that they say about repeating the same act and expecting different results?




    Yes, absolutely - I want some portion of my tax money spent to ensure that the remainder is being spent wisely, on teachers who can teach effectively.

    "Stop overseeing us!" is not going to win the day, Cop . . . and if you harbor any contrary delusions, I don't know what to tell you.




    Actually, it was done because too many kids were being shuffled off to special ed and left to rot there when they could have benefited from General Ed if provided with appropriate supplemental aids and services.

    This isn't really a discussion you're in a good place to have with me; as a parent in a legal dispute with the CPSE over my son's IEP (he is an absurdly bright kid who has ADHD related behavioral issues that are getting better with therapy and don't interfere with learning if he has a para, but the CSE is insisting that he be placed in a self-contained special ed classroom on the theory that is "less restrictive" than a para . . . which is nonsense under the law), I'm very familiar with the inner workings of the IDEA Act, parents and school rights in connection with special ed, etc. - in ways you seem not to be.



    The school has a right to evaluate even if the parent refuses to consent if it follows the legal processes for obtaining an evaluation - bringing the parent to mediation and seeking due process review.



    Yes, it does.



    And a teacher can recommend an evaluation, at which point the CSE is required by law to follow up.



    Violence and misguided behavior does not = shove the kid off to special ed.

    And again, you're missing the point. It's not about blame, or particular students. Good teachers do better than average (measured against the same student population), overall, with the students they get. Poor teachers do worse. It's imperative to identify which is which.




    Or you could use your tenure to do the right thing because it's the right thing.

    Of course, if more than 20% of the students are failing, its fair to ask whether the grading is appropriate to the grade level; that's the nature of curves. But students who refuse to do the work at all should fail, regardless of how many there are.





    And boy can you sue for retaliation. All beside the point. If you only do the right thing when it's easy, you have no business teaching students how to behave. Anyone can do the right thing when it's easy. Good people - the kind I want molding my kids, that we as a society want molding our kids - do what's right whether it is easy or hard.



    And that's supposed to make me sympathize with you for putting what's easier for you ahead of what's best for your students.[/QUOTE]

    :applause:

  5. #85
    [QUOTE=finlee17;4497672]Producing educated citizens creates more opportunities for individuals to leave communities and seek better opportunities elsewhere.

    With this issue, I think we're confusing administrative issues with educational ones. If budgets were mishandled and come up short, I’m not sure how tinkering with teacher evaluations resolves budgetary issues, unless the goal is to create revenue through lay-offs. Otherwise, you’re disturbing the classroom and spending limited revenue looking for areas to cut spending. If salaries and pensions of teachers need to be readjusted for economic reasons outside the classroom then that’s an argument independent of how they perform in the classroom. Why spend revenue micromanaging the classroom when the issue is administrative?

    On the other hand, if we’re looking to improve the quality of our students, then the classroom is fair game and we should be discussing the effectiveness of our teachers.[/QUOTE]

    My view is that the Mayor unlike the Gov of Wisconsin has to break the Union without saying he is breaking the Union. What this seems to be about in NYC is trying to break up the tenure system so he can replace high paid teachers with lower paid teachers. That is most certainly budgetary.
    Last edited by Winstonbiggs; 06-21-2012 at 04:21 PM.

  6. #86
    [QUOTE=doggin94it;4497612]Because the Teachers' Union fought so hard to prevent the firing of teachers who were assessed to be poor performers by arguing that the negative assessments were the product of bias or subjective judgments that should not have been trusted, and used those arguments to prevent or significantly delay the removal of poor teachers.

    You can't have it both ways. The teachers wanted objective measures - or at least claimed they were necessary to evaluations of teacher performance, when those measures were unavailable. Now that those measures are there, the union is taking the opposite stand.

    Again, the union needs to stop being the "party of no" and come up with what they contend is a fair system of teacher evaluation that will both be workable and will allow for rewarding good teachers and disciplining bad teachers.

    As long as the DOE is the only side in this argument with any plan to do that, the public will continue to side with the DOE.[/QUOTE]

    Doggin for Political forum MOD.

    Doggin..... you are clearly a cut above rest of us/most of us with your well balanced, reasoned and researched responses which are almost always void of emotion and self interest.


    In some areas, we disagree, however, is it OK to call you "Fair and Balanced"??? Seriously. Keep up the good work!

  7. #87
    Graduation today, some kids got word that administrators and deans were not present in school and all hell broke loose. Awful kids throwing food at the smaller quieter kids in the cafe, others roaming the hallways going into classrooms and punching kids and running, trashing bulletin boards that teachers decorate in hallways with student work. But dont look for this on the news, it'll never make it.

    Found this, hope this is the start of taking back the schools from vicious students who cause grief and rewarding those students who cooperate.

    [url]http://www.news12.com/articleDetail.jsp?articleId=324405&position=1&news_type=news[/url]

  8. #88
    [QUOTE=Winstonbiggs;4497685]My view is that the Mayor unlike the Gov of Wisconsin has to break the Union without saying he is breaking the Union. What this seems to be about in NYC is trying to break up the tenure system so he can replace high paid teachers with lower paid teachers. That is most certainly budgetary.[/QUOTE]

    I suppose we both agree that this is a budgetary issue. I just donít understand how expenditures on consultants and standardized tests to micromanage the classroom rectify the budget problems when they also contribute to budget deficits.

    On a side note, most people donít realize that the union and the tenure system are not the same thing. University professors are not unionized and universities still have a tenure system. The ability to tease apart and clearly identify core components is part of the problem when arguing about issues affecting the education system. Breaking up the tenure system doesnít necessarily break up the union and vice versa. Each has its own benefits and costs. In fact, destroying the tenure system would probably strengthen dependence on the union.

  9. #89
    [QUOTE=southparkcpa;4497816]Doggin for Political forum MOD.

    Doggin..... you are clearly a cut above rest of us/most of us with your well balanced, reasoned and researched responses which are almost always void of emotion and self interest.


    In some areas, we disagree, however, is it OK to call you "Fair and Balanced"??? Seriously. Keep up the good work![/QUOTE]

    Despite being a lurker, I would say the same. Ditto of Winston...

  10. #90
    [QUOTE=doggin94it;4497653]
    This isn't really a discussion you're in a good place to have with me; as a parent in a legal dispute with the CPSE over my son's IEP (he is an absurdly bright kid who has ADHD related behavioral issues that are getting better with therapy and don't interfere with learning if he has a para, but the CSE is insisting that he be placed in a self-contained special ed classroom on the theory that is "less restrictive" than a para . . . which is nonsense under the law), I'm very familiar with the inner workings of the IDEA Act, parents and school rights in connection with special ed, etc. - in ways you seem not to be.
    [/QUOTE]

    First, I want to apologize, I am sorry that you are going through such an awful issue with your son's school. Its terrible when the system is unfair to good people, and you and your family sound like the good ones. I also went back and read posts and would like to apologize if I came off a bit harsh when it comes to special ed students. I have all types of students and all with different talents and challenges. I also would like to apologize for categorizing all special ed students as behavior problems. They are not.

  11. #91
    [QUOTE=finlee17;4498007]I suppose we both agree that this is a budgetary issue. I just don’t understand how expenditures on consultants and standardized tests to micromanage the classroom rectify the budget problems when they also contribute to budget deficits.

    On a side note, most people don’t realize that the union and the tenure system are not the same thing. University professors are not unionized and universities still have a tenure system. The ability to tease apart and clearly identify core components is part of the problem when arguing about issues affecting the education system. Breaking up the tenure system doesn’t necessarily break up the union and vice versa. Each has its own benefits and costs. In fact, destroying the tenure system would probably strengthen dependence on the union.[/QUOTE]

    The tenure system at private Universities is about retention of Professors that schools want to keep to attract students in an open marketplace. Teachers in private institutions who aren't offered tenure are basically being shown the door. The tenure system in the Unionized public schools is based on simple seniority protected by the Union. There is no tenure in public schools thats based on retention of students in a competitive market.

  12. #92
    [QUOTE=copernicus;4495134]Not surprised at your response. Typical, blame teachers instead of scratching the surface a bit deeper. I guess its just fine to fire teachers over poor test scores even if the tests are proven to be flawed.

    Do you realize that students are taking up to 15-20 standardized (and practice standardized) tests a year just to prove why teachers arent worthy of their salaries? Giving one standardized test in a small long island district costs up to 3 million dollars when all is said and done. That doesnt include endless hours of boring test prep and workbooks that students use to prepare for these exams. Its over the the top. Not advocating no testing at all. But if politicians want to fire teachers over poor test scores shouldnt they be held accountable to at least have tests without errors????[/QUOTE]

    We live in a society where we look the other way when wall street robs and cheats to make millions and then have the tax payer bail them out. Instead, we are told that is capitalism when in reality, it should be called socialism. But they are not the enemy. In that same society, we have identified the enemy and the reason for all of our economic woes;[B] the school teachers[/B].

    not the millionaires and billionaires gaming the system thus making a mockery of our supposed democracy. Its the school teachers.

    Not the politicians that have been bought and paid for. Its the school teachers.

    Not the private companies that make billions by sending young men and women to die for profit in unjust wars. Its the school teachers.

    Not the media that acts as the mega phone for those special interests. Its the school teachers. That is why you can turn on your favorite "news" networks on any given day and see negative teacher stories but cannot find a piece done asking where the indictments are in relation to the stock fraud.

    Because when you own the media, you own the message.
    Last edited by intelligentjetsfan; 06-22-2012 at 09:20 AM.

  13. #93
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    [QUOTE=doggin94it;4497653]C

    This isn't really a discussion you're in a good place to have with me; as a parent in a legal dispute with the [B]CPSE[/B] over my son's [B]IEP[/B] (he is an absurdly bright kid who has ADHD related behavioral issues that are getting better with therapy and don't interfere with learning if he has a para, but the [B]CSE[/B] is insisting that he be placed in a self-contained special ed classroom on the theory that is "less restrictive" than a [B]para[/B] . . . which is nonsense under the law), I'm very familiar with the inner workings of the IDEA Act, parents and school rights in connection with special ed, etc. - in ways you seem not to be.


    Doggin, I wonder if you would be so kind as to flesh out the bolded acronyms. I know "para" is not an acroynym, of course. And I also know that google is free. I'll use it to look up the IDEA Act.
    I write this hoping not to incur the wrath of the Mariano Rivera of the Poli Forum. :P

  14. #94
    [QUOTE=intelligentjetsfan;4498185]We live in a society where we look the other way when wall street robs and cheats to make millions and then have the tax payer bail them out. Instead, we are told that is capitalism when in reality, it should be called socialism. But they are not the enemy. In that same society, we have identified the enemy and the reason for all of our economic woes;[B] the school teachers[/B].

    not the millionaires and billionaires gaming the system thus making a mockery of our supposed democracy. Its the school teachers.

    Not the politicians that have been bought and paid for. Its the school teachers.

    Not the private companies that make billions by sending young men and women to die for profit in unjust wars. Its the school teachers.

    Not the media that acts as the mega phone for those special interests. Its the school teachers. That is why you can turn on your favorite "news" networks on any given day and see negative teacher stories but cannot find a piece done asking where the indictments are in relation to the stock fraud.

    Because when you own the media, you own the message.[/QUOTE]

    Awesome and thanks. I cant see how anyone could argue this.
    Last edited by copernicus; 06-22-2012 at 10:11 AM.

  15. #95
    [QUOTE=intelligentjetsfan;4498185]
    Not the media that acts as the mega phone for those special interests. Its the school teachers. That is why you can turn on your favorite "news" networks on any given day and see negative teacher stories but cannot find a piece done asking where the indictments are in relation to the stock fraud.

    [/QUOTE]

    You must be getting your news from the Cartoon network. BS is still BS.

  16. #96
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    [QUOTE=intelligentjetsfan;4498185]We live in a society where we look the other way when wall street robs and cheats to make millions and then have the tax payer bail them out. Instead, we are told that is capitalism when in reality, it should be called socialism. But they are not the enemy. In that same society, we have identified the enemy and the reason for all of our economic woes;[B] the school teachers[/B].

    not the millionaires and billionaires gaming the system thus making a mockery of our supposed democracy. Its the school teachers.

    Not the politicians that have been bought and paid for. Its the school teachers.

    Not the private companies that make billions by sending young men and women to die for profit in unjust wars. Its the school teachers.

    Not the media that acts as the mega phone for those special interests. Its the school teachers. That is why you can turn on your favorite "news" networks on any given day and see negative teacher stories but cannot find a piece done asking where the indictments are in relation to the stock fraud.

    Because when you own the media, you own the message.[/QUOTE]

    The problem is that there are multiple problems and these aren't either\or issues.

    You act as though there aren't TONS of people (not politicians) on both side of the aisle and everywhere in between that were aghast at the bail outs. I know as a fiscal conservative/libertarian that I thought that it was a pure political money grab and wouldn't solve anything. The thing is Wall Street/Banking bail outs have little to do with Public education issues.

    Yes it is all costing money but the money for the bail outs wasn't diverted from education to banks. It should have just stayed in tax payers pockets.

    As I have said several times on this thread there are many culprits in the demise of the American public education system; Politicians, the Federal bureau of education, the Teachers Union(s), administrators, school boards, teachers, parents and students all have to take some of the blame.

    This is not to say ALL politicians, teachers, parents, kids, etc are the problem.

    [B]I think one of the biggest things to learn with things like NCLB is I truly think that it was created, at least to some extent, with the best of intentions. I really think they THOUGHT they would be improving education with this bill. The problem with most government solutions is they cause as many issues as they think they are solving due to unintended consequences. Then it is followed by the blame game rather than the realization that we are causing problems with these huge overreaching one size fits all solutions.[/B]

    Take the government's stance on food especially via subsidies. They have created a carb-centric, processed food centric culture due to their policies and now they blame people and want to add more government on top of their policies while not removing the old ones and point the finger at people for following their advice. Government is not a solution for most problems. We have to stop being reliant on the government for everything and take ownership of our families, communities and country. Sitting around and pointing the finger will not solve anything. If you truly want change you must stand up and be the changer rather than complaining that things aren't right, aren't fair or aren't changing.

  17. #97
    [QUOTE=copernicus;4497572]I am not against all standardized tests. I believe a regents exam at the end of a school year in specific subjects is reasonable. I think the scores could be used as a tool for administrators to help teachers. [/QUOTE]

    That's very nice, and i agree that students are over tested right now. I agree that the implementation of standardized testing has been poorly executed.


    However... you completely side stepped my question. What metric is fair way to objectively evaluate teacher performance Copernicus? Is one of the tests you like a good way to evaluate your success as a teacher? If not how should it be done. If i'm an administrator, and i need to reduce the number of teachers i have, what tools and metrics should i have at my disposal to make a good decision, that's fair for both the students and teachers?

  18. #98
    [QUOTE=Trades;4498295]The problem is that there are multiple problems and these aren't either\or issues.

    You act as though there aren't TONS of people (not politicians) on both side of the aisle and everywhere in between that were aghast at the bail outs. I know as a fiscal conservative/libertarian that I thought that it was a pure political money grab and wouldn't solve anything. The thing is Wall Street/Banking bail outs have little to do with Public education issues.

    Yes it is all costing money but the money for the bail outs wasn't diverted from education to banks. It should have just stayed in tax payers pockets.

    As I have said several times on this thread there are many culprits in the demise of the American public education system; Politicians, the Federal bureau of education, the Teachers Union(s), administrators, school boards, teachers, parents and students all have to take some of the blame.

    This is not to say ALL politicians, teachers, parents, kids, etc are the problem.

    [B]I think one of the biggest things to learn with things like NCLB is I truly think that it was created, at least to some extent, with the best of intentions. I really think they THOUGHT they would be improving education with this bill. The problem with most government solutions is they cause as many issues as they think they are solving due to unintended consequences. Then it is followed by the blame game rather than the realization that we are causing problems with these huge overreaching one size fits all solutions.[/B]

    Take the government's stance on food especially via subsidies. They have created a carb-centric, processed food centric culture due to their policies and now they blame people and want to add more government on top of their policies while not removing the old ones and point the finger at people for following their advice. Government is not a solution for most problems. We have to stop being reliant on the government for everything and take ownership of our families, communities and country. Sitting around and pointing the finger will not solve anything. If you truly want change you must stand up and be the changer rather than complaining that things aren't right, aren't fair or aren't changing.[/QUOTE]

    Good thoughts.

    The point of my prior post is to demonstrate that the line is long and far of organizations/people who have caused this country economic harm by wasting tax money. Teachers and their pensions, while a problem, is nowhere near at the front of that line. Yet you would not know that based on the amount of attention they have received from the media and politicians. The reason is simple; in an era where people are angry about wasted tax money, the teachers are an easy mark for the republicans. Simply, they were not getting their votes to begin so there is no fear of blow back. They can also weaken their political enemies at the same time because many democrats are fed money through the teacher's union.

    I have stated several times that their needs to be changes to the public school system. I also agree that more government involvement is not a good thing-they mismanage and make matters worse. But there are no easy solutions because the biggest issue with education does not even take place inside a classroom; it starts at home. Learning and proper habits begin at home and it starts before the kids ever step foot inside a kindergarten class. We have a generation of parents who do not have the time or, in some cases, don't care enough to read to their kids and give them the attention that is needed. That is the reality of the situation that many politicians are afraid to talk about.
    Last edited by intelligentjetsfan; 06-22-2012 at 11:31 AM.

  19. #99
    [QUOTE=copernicus;4498140]First, I want to apologize, I am sorry that you are going through such an awful issue with your son's school. Its terrible when the system is unfair to good people, and you and your family sound like the good ones. I also went back and read posts and would like to apologize if I came off a bit harsh when it comes to special ed students. I have all types of students and all with different talents and challenges. I also would like to apologize for categorizing all special ed students as behavior problems. They are not.[/QUOTE]

    No worries - I didn't take it personally and knew you weren't categorizing all special ed students.

  20. #100
    [QUOTE=brady's a catcher;4498186][QUOTE=doggin94it;4497653]C

    This isn't really a discussion you're in a good place to have with me; as a parent in a legal dispute with the [B]CPSE[/B] over my son's [B]IEP[/B] (he is an absurdly bright kid who has ADHD related behavioral issues that are getting better with therapy and don't interfere with learning if he has a para, but the [B]CSE[/B] is insisting that he be placed in a self-contained special ed classroom on the theory that is "less restrictive" than a [B]para[/B] . . . which is nonsense under the law), I'm very familiar with the inner workings of the IDEA Act, parents and school rights in connection with special ed, etc. - in ways you seem not to be.


    Doggin, I wonder if you would be so kind as to flesh out the bolded acronyms. I know "para" is not an acroynym, of course. And I also know that google is free. I'll use it to look up the IDEA Act.
    I write this hoping not to incur the wrath of the Mariano Rivera of the Poli Forum. :P[/QUOTE]

    :D

    CPSE is a typo. That's the Committee on Preschool Special Education; I'm dealing with the CSE, the Committee on Special Education. New York's school districts each have CSEs which are responsible for identifying children who may need special education or related services (such as extra testing time, paraprofessional aides, etc.), evaluating them, and recommending and providing services.

    An IEP is an Individual Education Plan, which is the plan of services the school is required to create under the IDEA Act. (In my son's case, it's actually an IESP [Individual Education Services Plan], since that's what they call it when the kid in question is in a private school within the district). The plan is required to be developed at a meeting of the IEP Team, which is comprised of representatives of the Committee, at least 1 parent, representatives of the school (including general and special education teachers) and a parent-advocate member of the Committee. They make recommendations and develop a plan of services that the school district must follow.

    A para is just shorthand for a paraprofessional - a non-teacher in the school to serve the student's more individualized needs (such as providing physical help to handicapped kids or crisis management to children with emotional issues).

    My son (who is absurdly bright and insightful, and I'm not just saying that as a proud parent) has some emotional control issues; he is impulsive (diagnosed ADHD-Impulsivity type) and experiences very intense emotions (when he gets angry or upset, he gets [B]very[/B] angry/upset, regardless of how small the trigger is, objectively). He's learning to control it, but had several incidents in school where he created unsafe spaces for other students or teachers. We tried behavior modification therapy, but he was experiencing things so intensely that he never had the emotional space to develop the controls behavior mod was supposed to reward. We have privately (thank god for my ex-wife's father, who is a wonderful human being) hired a crisis management paraprofessional to work with him in school, and since that time his behavior has essentially dropped back to 1st grade normal and the behavior mod is starting to take (basically, the para is helping create the emotional space that allows him to actually learn control). He's flourishing academically.

    Despite the fact that the law requires the CSE to keep him in a general ed classroom if at all possible, the CSE's proposed IESP for him is to take him out of a general education classroom and shove him into a self-contained special ed class (i.e. only special ed students). They've taken the position that assigning him a crisis management para would not allow him to remain in a general ed class - which is absurd since actual experience demonstrates that it absolutely would. I'm in the process of drafting a brief and collecting affidavits for the due process hearing demand we will file (in which an impartial hearing officer will review their denial of services).

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