[QUOTE=copernicus;4495114]Surprise, surprise, turns out that there was a problem with the NYC Standardized Spanish test in my school (not sure if it was city wide). The students were asked to choose two questions from 31, 32, and 33, but question 33 turned out not to exist. This posed a HUGE problem for our students and teachers. Students asked if they failed the exam because of the one question would they have a chance to take it over? Fail for the year? Have to go to summer school? No one had the answer. You see this is what happens when standardized tests are more important to politicians than teachers, it stresses out the whole system and does more harm than good.
I spoke to some Spanish teachers today who told me that the test had major mistakes. Just like the other city and state exams that Mayor Bloomberg wants to fire teachers over. Question 33 would have been a picture that the students needed to write about, but there was just no picture to be found.
This is one of many things that are wrong about the amount of standardized testing politicians force on students. On top of all the standardized testing, teachers are forced to give their own final in the classroom. More and more testing for students. On my personal exam there happened to be a typo. I was able to write the correction on the board when a student pointed it out to me. However, no one can correct the city, since Mayor Bloomberg already knows everything, including teachers who should be fired and schools that should be shut down. Since Bloomberg has mayoral control of the NYC school system, and there continue to be mistake after mistake on these standardized tests that he ultimately has control over, shouldn't he be fired?[/QUOTE]
Why do you post all these rants about the schools here on JI???? If I posted all the things wrong with the IRS we'd need a seperate thread box.:confused:
[QUOTE=copernicus;4495268]So many things that you are misinformed about. Im not surprised, you are not in a school. The focus on standardized test are so over the top right now it is absurd. It is all that students prepare for.
I dont believe in a lot of homework. I believe time for homework after school should be at the most 20 minutes. [/SIZE]The rest should be spent on family. Under No Child Left Behind homework is MANDATED. It is absurd the amount that the teacher is FORCED to give. Homework that comes already packaged that is not created by the teacher but must be marked by the teacher. You are misinformed. Homework has NOTHING to do with what doesnt get done in the classroom, it is to reinforce what has already been learned. Again, something that someone from outside the classroom would not know. Why so much homework given to students? Not about them learning, any parent can see that. Its way too much. Just another way to under-mind the teachers and try to convince the public how bad teachers are to break their union.
I could look at my own tests that are given to judge how much students know. Its not about me, its about them, the students. Not the tests the government creates because they often cover material that is not given to us. The tests are manipulated for a much larger agenda.[/QUOTE]
What you believe???? YOU? the GREAT YOU???? That speaks volumes. I grew up in Brentwood NY (look it up, a slum), I studied for the CPA exam in Dix Hills on Saturdays. The Dix Hills public library was PACKED FULL of kids studying, on a Saturday. What do you know? These kids go on to GREAT colleges and have great potential but yeah.... preach on brother of mediocrity. I guess you are breeding the next influx of people depending on a public union.
Last edited by southparkcpa; 06-19-2012 at 02:21 PM.
[QUOTE=doggin94it;4495243]So what you're saying is that the quality of the teacher has no impact on the quality of the results?
That doesn't seem like an argument for [I][B]increasing[/B][/I] teacher pay, Cop.
You can't have it both ways. Either teachers are important, key cogs in the education system that can seriously impact the lives of their students - in which case, the good ones should be rewarded and the bad ones should be discarded quickly and without cavil - or they don't, in which case there are no good or bad teachers and they should all be paid minimum wage, since anyone can do an equally good job.
Which is it?
So - what do you do when you get 50-60% complete? What are the consequences for the students?[/QUOTE]
You are assuming that high test scores on standardized test equate to being a good teacher. In my opinion it is very far down on the list. Unless you are inside of a school and truly understand the dynamics of this. There are AWFUL students who happen to be great test takers. They disrupt the classroom, cause other students to learn less, and are rude to adults. Then there are some students who are excellent, they behave well, show effort, are kind and love to learn but will NEVER be able to pass a test. IMHO, the best teachers are the ones who encourage students, and get them, to want to learn more. The teachers who inspire students to be a little better each day. Often this does not show up on a test score.
As far as the "merit pay" issue. Its impossible. We are already seeing cases across America where wide spread cheating is involved because of the money that is at stake because of testing. Principals are changing test scores because it means more money for their school districts. We are teaching the kids that money is the only thing that matters in life. In schools, when that's the case, education breaks down and often the students who need it the most are left behind.
Public school accepts all students. Not like private or charter where they are hand chosen. Public school gets the kids who have SEVERE behavior issues and awful home life along with some gifted. There is a HUGE difference from the gifted students to the lowest level.
I (or my principal) can easily choose 30 students from my school that would make me look like the greatest teacher just as easy as I could choose 30 to make me look awful. With so much money involved, who is going to monitor this so all teachers are on the fairest possible playing field and that the students are being treated fairly?
What teacher's get the gifted students as opposed to those who struggle? How about the students who can speak English and those who cant? Behavior issues? These are the variables that can possibly be seen on paper. How about the ones that cant be seen like the students who have caring parents that value education? How about the students whose parents are addicted to drugs? Students who have health issues? Students who are sexually abused at home? Going through divorce? Have a healthy meal provided for them by their parents as opposed to those on welfare?
Sadly under NCLB there are very little consequences for students. Any type of discipline towards a student could be deemed as "corporal punishment." This includes asking the student to stand in the hallway if he or she is out of control and are a safety issue to others. If the teacher puts the student in the hallway he is denying the student of an education. Crazy right? Even crazier, students can no longer be expelled or suspended unless the parent agrees to it. Most serious cases of unruly students have parents that have issues as well. They do not want to deal with the child and in most cases refuse to agree to a suspension. Even violent students who but others at risk cant have their education denied. Its absurd.
As far as your question as to what I do with the 50-70% of students who do not do homework, there is not much. You see the mayor has set up a system where it is very difficult to do what is right for the student because his agenda is about firing teachers and not necessarily the few bad ones, but the ones that make the most money. Big difference. But back to what I do, I threaten that they might go to summer school, but under mayor Bloomberg, summer school is only 15 days. 15 days to make up 10 months of work! Not a bad deal for the unruly 12 year old kid who has a choice to do what is right or make life miserable for 10 months knowing he can pass in about two weeks worth of work. You see the mayor doesnt want to pay teachers who choose to work summer school any more than he has to.
The mayor has also threatened to close schools and reopen them with a new staff. If too many students fail, administrators put pressure on teachers to pass them. It is very sad where in most cases the students and teachers are pawns in a political chess game. The only teachers who defend the students are those with tenure. They are not afraid to speak up and do what is right. An untenured teacher is too afraid to speak up knowing they can be fired even if it is obvious that the policy hurts kids. Imagine if there were no tenure? We would have to trust the government 100% with every mandate they think is good for kids. We all know that the politicians presently in charge of our school system always have the children's best interest in mind:
[I]Pink Slime For School Lunch: Government Buying 7 Million Pounds Of Ammonia-Treated Meat For Meals
Pink slime -- that ammonia-treated meat in a bright Pepto-bismol shade -- may have been rejected by fast food joints like McDonald's, Taco Bell and Burger King, but is being brought in by the tons for the nation's school lunch program.[/I]
[QUOTE=southparkcpa;4495340]What you believe???? YOU? the GREAT YOU???? That speaks volumes. I grew up in Brentwood NY (look it up, a slum), I studied for the CPA exam in Dix Hills on Saturdays. The Dix Hills public library was PACKED FULL of kids studying, on a Saturday. What do you know? These kids go on to GREAT colleges and have great potential but yeah.... preach on brother of mediocrity. I guess you are breeding the next influx of people depending on a public union.[/QUOTE]
You studied for the CPA exam at 11 and 12 years old? Pretty impressive
Our current government leaders are giving standardized type tests to students as early as 5 years old!
Guess this is a good idea as well. Those terrible kindergarten teachers have it so easy today.:rolleyes:
If every teacher gave 20 minutes of homework a night for their middle school student they would have 40 minutes to an hour a night for homework.
Any doctor and child psychologist will tell you that the adolescent mind can concentrate for far less than this.
[QUOTE=copernicus;4495301]It picks a chooses the students they want to be a part of their program. Very similar to charter schools in NYC where the "wink, wink" lottery chooses the highly motivated/highest scoring student over the challenging one. The challenging students are left for the public school teacher to deal with. Just a glorified private school with numbers that make them look good and other numbers that make educators look bad. Mayor Bloomberg "proves" how great schools are improving under him in one breathe and shows other numbers how the teachers and schools need to be fired and closed in another breathe. What is it then?
Ask ANY teacher in NYC if they think schools are better now under Bloomberg's policies and NCLB. I would say that close to 100% would tell you that Mayor Bloomberg and NCLB has destroyed schools. Guess they are all wrong..........[/QUOTE]
Your contention then is that the lottery system is fixed? Highly doubtful my friend. I simply don't believe it. I do think that kids with parents that take the time to fill out the form by definition have a higher propensity to succeed just based on the fact that their parents are involved enough in their education to take the time to fill out the form.
More importantly we know that in the inner city there are some bad apples. Nothing will ever change that. Why would you doom the good apples with the potential to change their station in life by taking away their opportunity to get in to a better school? If 5000 kids used the voucher program to get in to better schools and eventually went on to College, that is a great thing. The cost to the taxpayer was cheaper and the positive results are undeniable.
[QUOTE=southparkcpa;4495334]Why do you post all these rants about the schools here on JI???? If I posted all the things wrong with the IRS we'd need a seperate thread box.:confused:[/QUOTE]
Schools are a very hot topic in politics today. This is a political forum. I am on the inside of one of the toughest school systems in America. I read and view a negative story about teachers every single day/night on the news and thought that some might appreciate a first hand look at it rather than the governments view through the use of media.
I thought it was an interesting topic.
You dont have to read it and I apologize that a teacher who has no voice in the main stream media defending teachers angers you so.
[QUOTE=chiefst2000;4495418]Your contention then is that the lottery system is fixed? Highly doubtful my friend. I simply don't believe it. I do think that kids with parents that take the time to fill out the form by definition have a higher propensity to succeed just based on the fact that their parents are involved enough in their education to take the time to fill out the form.
More importantly we know that in the inner city there are some bad apples. Nothing will ever change that. Why would you doom the good apples with the potential to change their station in life by taking away their opportunity to get in to a better school? If 5000 kids used the voucher program to get in to better schools and eventually went on to College, that is a great thing. The cost to the taxpayer was cheaper and the positive results are undeniable.[/QUOTE]
Each year at state exam time charter school students who are failing receive letters from their schools stating that if they do not transfer immediately to their zoned schools they are in jeopardy of failing for the school year and being left back. Often these students have no chance of passing the state exam. Panicked parents transfer their kids and the failing students score now goes onto the public school teachers data report at the new school. This happens in my public school each year.
The lottery is fixed. Maybe a few spots for the general public but mostly for those that will make the school look good.
[QUOTE=copernicus;4495426]Each year at state exam time charter school students who are failing receive letters from their schools stating that if they do not transfer immediately to their zoned schools they are in jeopardy of failing for the school year and being left back. Often these students have no chance of passing the state exam. Panicked parents transfer their kids and the failing students score now goes onto the public school teachers data report at the new school. This happens in my public school each year.
The lottery is fixed. Maybe a few spots for the general public but mostly for those that will make the school look good.[/QUOTE]
Things are totally different in my town in NJ. Schools have been opened up due to the NJ School Choice system and my town accepted ALL of the applicants. Just because NYC schools suck for the most part doesn't mean that it is the same in the rest of the country.
The worst schools are in the cities; DC, NYC, Detroit, Camden, LA, etc yet they cost the most per student. Personal solution: if you are smart GTFO of the city. National solution?!? As long as personal responsibility is off the table, and by this I mean for the students and parents, nothing will change. As Chiefs said though, why do you want to punish the people that are taking the opportunities given them?
[QUOTE=Trades;4495330]So you admit that the teacher has little to do with it then? :D
Seriously though. I have seen you rail on about the poor lot in life of the American (NYC) teacher. What is your proposed solution?
What I get from your posts is, "Oh poor me", never a solution or a proposal other than stop blaming the teachers start blaming everyone else but the union. I think the average conservative/libertarian here is arguing a different point than you. We are complaining about the escalating and never ending costs of a public education SYSTEM that is bankrupting towns and showing little for the expense. Because of this we think there should be changes.
Personally, I don't blame ALL of the teachers. Like ever industry there are good and bad and they cross the entire spectrum. The problem is that after tenure the bad are almost impossible to get rid of. That is my issue with the teachers. I know you have a sometimes thankless job but guess what, we all do at times. You get the benefit of seeing the 40% of the kids that are good students prosper and learn.[/QUOTE]
My opinion would be to start looking into how the money is being spent. Mayor Bloomberg fought very hard for TOTAL mayoral control and there is TONS of evidence where millions of dollars are being spent in the shadiest of ways. But guess what, no one can question him because he has TOTAL mayoral control.
[QUOTE=Trades;4495431]Things are totally different in my town in NJ. Schools have been opened up due to the NJ School Choice system and my town accepted ALL of the applicants. Just because NYC schools suck for the most part doesn't mean that it is the same in the rest of the country.
The worst schools are in the cities; DC, NYC, Detroit, Camden, LA, etc yet they cost the most per student. Personal solution: if you are smart GTFO of the city. National solution?!? As long as personal responsibility is off the table, and by this I mean for the students and parents, nothing will change. As Chiefs said though, why do you want to punish the people that are taking the opportunities given them?[/QUOTE]
The Common Core Standard now trumps NCLB and is steamrolling its way across America. Many educators believe this policy is worse than ever. Whats in my system presently will soon be followed in others. Like NCLB. City schools have the most severe issues. To address them, money in most cases need to be spent. Its why its most difficult to manage. Politicians should not be in charge of how money should be spent on children like in Bloomberg's mayor control of NYC....
[QUOTE=copernicus;4495173]Wow, really? Compare a teacher to sales is ridiculous. A sales person has control over selling the product. If he is a great salesman then he will sell his product to his audience. He is also selling his product in an environment that is somewhat interested in buying. I dont get a choice of my audience. Much of my audience has little to no interst in the product Im selling. Teachers have little to no control over a 12 year old taking the information presented and then applying it. Last time I looked most 12 year olds do not like homework, they dont like math either. You could be the greatest "salesman" for math but to a 12 year old he or she aint buyin,' no matter what. 12 year olds go through changes, changes that affect their personalities, affect their response to adults. Children's hormones are constantly changing. The salesman doesnt have to deal with that in any amount of comparable numbers. I have an entire classroom of students who's hormones are affecting their personalities 100% of the time. Last time I looked, 12 year olds deal with many of these issues irrationally. Sometimes the issues are health and divorce. Pretty serious stuff that salesman dont have to factor into when selling their product.
I give homework just about every night. I get about 50 to 65% complete on a daily basis. I should be fired because of this? I did my job. I supplied the students with homework. Its up to the student and parent to apply what has been learned. With that logic should we fire the doctor who prescribes medicine to the patient who refuses to take it and dies?
My job is to also get through to "mommy and daddy?" I really hope you are joking. Being that you speak with such confidence, how might you address this? I call the parents of my lowest level students mostly with no response. Many of these parents dont have working phones or have severe issues themselves and dont want to deal with their kids at all. There are also parent teacher nights, emails, and phone to contact the teacher on the part of interested parents. Most of the lowest level students parent's I NEVER get a response from. Should I be required to go to there house too?
You my friend are out of touch with what currently is going on in classrooms and how little teachers are supplied with the necessary resources to be successful.
But I get it, its much easier to listen to corporate America, who controls the media, and their quest to get rid of unions.[/QUOTE]
'll use your own words. "If he's a great salesman he can sell his product".
That's YOUR job. Selling the student. If you can't YOU ARE A DISMAL FAILURE.
I base my concept on value in our society. You deliver or you you do not. Fail to perform? See ya.
Teachers demand salary. High reward should be based on high risk. In anything.
Buy Treasuries. No risk. Minor reward.
Buy facebook - we'll see. High risk - yes. Maybe high reward. Maybe a bloodbath.
Buy Conoco Phillips - Some risk. decent reward.
In a job. Teachers have a good reward with LOW risk. You want money? (Teachers are VERY well compensated). WORK for it. Failure in production should equate to termination.
I had the sword over my head my entire life starting with college. I had to produce or else. From football to the Army to every business assignment.
Pressure makes people good. Terrifying pressure. My children were all brought up the same way. Successful and very well to do. On their own.
It's easy for a teacher to lay blame elsewhere. The liberal way out. Like Obama. He ever accept blame? No. People should just do the job or get fired.
Jack Welsh, when he was CEO at General Electric has a policy he utilized for 20 years. At evaluation time each year, every manager in every division was required to list his lowest 10% of employees in performance. These were promptly TERMINATED. Brutal? Maybe. But it insured people would work hard and it insured poor performers were rooted out, kicked to the curb and good talent brought in.
It's time all government workers got off their gravy train and worked.
My friend is a teacher in NYC public school (terrible district) and this year she told me of 2 in incidents that jus makes me shake my head..
1- she sent a letter home to a parent because about missing HW and the next day the father went to school, physically threatened her and called her a "stank ass hoe" infront of school administrators... NYBOE did nothing
2- another kid hands in a book taken from the classroom and in the boom there was a small Baggie with white residue, looked like coke. She told the school social worker, called the principal and when she hung up threw the bag in the garbage. When asked if anything was going to be done, the response she got back was "we can't prove anything and don't want to be sued"
It starts at home, parents don't give a $hit and shows in their children. Also to much political correctness nowadays.
I'll never forget i was new kid in school (4th grade) and wanted to cool and told my teacher to shut up infront of the class. When my mother found out she came to the school and whipped my ass infront my classmates. I never ever lost respect for my teachers again. My mother would be arrested today