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Thread: It's Sanchez AND Tebow, Not Sanchez vs. Tebow

  1. #21
    [QUOTE=Joe W. Namath;4501295]This right here. and crazily, they still have that goof cavanaugh as his qb coach. Thats the biggest problem sanchez has had to deal with. Terrible coaching.[/QUOTE]

    100% agree with that.

  2. #22
    Jets finally have two QB's who can play... Sanchez is #1 and Tebow #2 with the abilty to add wrinkles to the off. Got to like the idea of Tebow on a 4 and 1 from our own 40... Try defending that straight up...

  3. #23
    [QUOTE=Untouchable;4501197][I]"Is he the best QB in the NFL? No, certainly not. But he’s a damn fine quarterback with a ton of potential [B]who has been mishandled by the Jets organization throughout his career[/B]."[/I]

    LOL

    What a crock of sh*t.

    Sanchez came into the league surrounded by a Top 3 defense, Top 5 running game, and arguably the best OL in the league. What young QB wouldn't kill to be put in that situation?

    The Jets followed the handbook of "How to handle a young QB" to a tee.[/QUOTE]


    Oh, I don't doubt one bit that he walked into an awesome situation in '09. What I disagree with when it comes to your viewpoint and mine is:

    [B]Tanny's offensive personnel moves in 2006-2008 versus 2009-2011[/B]:

    - Tannenbaum has been here for 6 full seasons. Let's look at the moves he's made on the offensive side of the football in his first three years (leading up to Sanchez) compared to his last three years, Sanchez's first three in the league. [I]Convince me[/I] that Tannenbaum has done a good job of evaluating offensive talent around Sanchez since Sanchez was drafted. I'm leaving out drafted and FA QBs since this is an argument based on talent around the QB.

    [U]Draft Picks & Notable Free Agents 2006-2008[/U]
    D'Brickashaw Ferguson ('06 draft)
    Nick Mangold ('06 draft)
    Brad Smith ('06 draft)
    Leon Washington ('06 draft)
    Kevan Barlow ('06 FA)
    Jacob Bender ('07 draft)
    Chansi Stuckey ('07 draft)
    Thomas Jones ('07 FA)
    Dustin Keller ('08 draft)
    Marcus Henry ('08 draft)
    Nate Garner ('08 draft)
    Damien Woody ('08 FA)
    Alan Faneca ('08 FA)
    Wayne Hunter ('08 FA)
    Tony Richardson ('08 FA)

    [U]Draft Picks and Notable Free Agents 2009-2011[/U]
    Shonn Greene ('09 draft)
    Matt Slauson ('09 draft)
    Ben Hartsock ('09 FA)
    Braylon Edwards ('09 trade)
    Vlad Ducasse ('10 draft)
    Joe McKnight ('10 draft)
    John Conner ('10 draft)
    LaDainian Tomlinson ('10 FA)
    Santonio Holmes ('10 trade)
    Bilal Powell ('11 draft)
    Jeremy Kerley ('11 draft)
    Scotty McKnight ('11 draft)
    Plaxico Burress ('11 FA)
    Derrick Mason ('11 FA)

    Can you honestly tell me with a straight face that the second list in any way stacks up to the top list?

    What I see is completely fecklessness when it comes to maintaining the offensive line... exhausting only two draft picks in the last three years on the OL is unacceptable, especially when only one of them was taken in the first three rounds. The other was solid value but he was still a 6th rounder and is a replacement level starter. That pales in comparison to the 2 long term starters, one an above average and one an All-Pro, plus the two quality vets in Fanceca/Woody from the first three years. The result? You're left with a journeyman swing tackle as your starter for back to back years. The best front offices continue to fortify their OLs even when they're performing at a high level. If you don't keep your eye on the ball, it comes back to bite you in the ass. Tanny has let this happen twice -- 2007 and 2011. Unacceptable.

    The constant juggling of the receiving corps has been discussed ad nauseam.

    The RB evaluation has been sub-par in the last three years. Granted some of these guys need more time, but at this point I have little faith in Bilal Powell even becoming a third down back. Thomas Jones, who was acquired in Tanny's first half of his GM stint, gave the Jets two Pro Bowl caliber seasons. We got one solid year out of Tomlinson, but Greene, McKnight, and Powell have done little to show they can come close to stacking up with Jones's productivity.

    I'd love to hear your thoughts. The Jets set the scene nicely to let Sanchez come in and play in 2009, but it is as if they thought all the work was done then and there and don't have to do anything to keep it a well-oiled machine or allow their QB to continuously grow. And please, I don't want to hear your unfounded argument that a QB is ready to take complete control of a team by year three. The examples of that are very few and far between.

  4. #24
    You're right. It is Sanchez AND Tebow, for now, but things will likely change throughout the course of the season, one way or another.

  5. #25
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    [QUOTE=LeonSilver;4500125]I saw those comments by Tebow on PFT about how he's supporting Sanchez and that goes nicely with this article I read about how jets fans shouldn't be rooting against Tebow or Sanchez because they support one guy more than the other.. They're both Jets and we need them both to succeed. We should all support both and want them to do well rather than hoping one fails so our fan say "I told ya so!"

    [url]http://turnonthejets.com/2012/06/new-york-jets-not-sanchez-vs-tebow-sanchez-and-tebow/[/url]

    Curious to know how other fans feel about this..[/QUOTE]

    I feel exactly like you. It sickens me to come here and read attacks on either Jets QB. I view them as silly and wrong! This is still a team game. It takes a "village" to win! I hope BOTH QBs do great and help us to win a Super Bowl or two. I also include McElroy in this equation. He is a Jets QB too but is treated like he was a Dolphin by some here.

  6. #26
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    [QUOTE=Joe W. Namath;4501295]This right here. and crazily, they still have that goof cavanaugh as his qb coach. Thats the biggest problem sanchez has had to deal with. Terrible coaching.[/QUOTE]

    and that "poor" QB coach is responsible for assisting the raw QB to get to two consecutive AFCCGs. I suppose we would have won a SB if the QB coach was any good! Get real! A coach puts players into position to win. If he can not do that he should be replaced! But INTS, fumbles, throwing to the wrong player including the opponents DEs are the fault of the QB. I think REX might know a thing or two more then you do about QB coaches. If you have more knowledge then REX in this category I suggest that you call the team owner and offer to accept a job as Rex's replacement!
    Last edited by Kentucky Jet; 06-26-2012 at 05:20 PM.

  7. #27
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    [QUOTE=Rexipus Rex;4501358]Oh, I don't doubt one bit that he walked into an awesome situation in '09. What I disagree with when it comes to your viewpoint and mine is:

    [B]Tanny's offensive personnel moves in 2006-2008 versus 2009-2011[/B]:

    - Tannenbaum has been here for 6 full seasons. Let's look at the moves he's made on the offensive side of the football in his first three years (leading up to Sanchez) compared to his last three years, Sanchez's first three in the league. [I]Convince me[/I] that Tannenbaum has done a good job of evaluating offensive talent around Sanchez since Sanchez was drafted. I'm leaving out drafted and FA QBs since this is an argument based on talent around the QB.

    [U]Draft Picks & Notable Free Agents 2006-2008[/U]
    D'Brickashaw Ferguson ('06 draft)
    Nick Mangold ('06 draft)
    Brad Smith ('06 draft)
    Leon Washington ('06 draft)
    Kevan Barlow ('06 FA)
    Jacob Bender ('07 draft)
    Chansi Stuckey ('07 draft)
    Thomas Jones ('07 FA)
    Dustin Keller ('08 draft)
    Marcus Henry ('08 draft)
    Nate Garner ('08 draft)
    Damien Woody ('08 FA)
    Alan Faneca ('08 FA)
    Wayne Hunter ('08 FA)
    Tony Richardson ('08 FA)

    [U]Draft Picks and Notable Free Agents 2009-2011[/U]
    Shonn Greene ('09 draft)
    Matt Slauson ('09 draft)
    Ben Hartsock ('09 FA)
    Braylon Edwards ('09 trade)
    Vlad Ducasse ('10 draft)
    Joe McKnight ('10 draft)
    John Conner ('10 draft)
    LaDainian Tomlinson ('10 FA)
    Santonio Holmes ('10 trade)
    Bilal Powell ('11 draft)
    Jeremy Kerley ('11 draft)
    Scotty McKnight ('11 draft)
    Plaxico Burress ('11 FA)
    Derrick Mason ('11 FA)

    Can you honestly tell me with a straight face that the second list in any way stacks up to the top list?

    What I see is completely fecklessness when it comes to maintaining the offensive line... exhausting only two draft picks in the last three years on the OL is unacceptable, especially when only one of them was taken in the first three rounds. The other was solid value but he was still a 6th rounder and is a replacement level starter. That pales in comparison to the 2 long term starters, one an above average and one an All-Pro, plus the two quality vets in Fanceca/Woody from the first three years. The result? You're left with a journeyman swing tackle as your starter for back to back years. The best front offices continue to fortify their OLs even when they're performing at a high level. If you don't keep your eye on the ball, it comes back to bite you in the ass. Tanny has let this happen twice -- 2007 and 2011. Unacceptable.

    The constant juggling of the receiving corps has been discussed ad nauseam.

    The RB evaluation has been sub-par in the last three years. Granted some of these guys need more time, but at this point I have little faith in Bilal Powell even becoming a third down back. Thomas Jones, who was acquired in Tanny's first half of his GM stint, gave the Jets two Pro Bowl caliber seasons. We got one solid year out of Tomlinson, but Greene, McKnight, and Powell have done little to show they can come close to stacking up with Jones's productivity.

    I'd love to hear your thoughts. The Jets set the scene nicely to let Sanchez come in and play in 2009, but it is as if they thought all the work was done then and there and don't have to do anything to keep it a well-oiled machine or allow their QB to continuously grow. And please, I don't want to hear your unfounded argument that a QB is ready to take complete control of a team by year three. The examples of that are very few and far between.[/QUOTE]

    If Sanchez is always going to need everything on offense to go swimmingly well around him in order to be successful, then why the hell are we even wasting our time?

    I agree that we've jumbled the receiving corps over the past two years. I was firmly against the Burress signing from day one. But let's not act like we didn't give Sanchez some help here. In his first two years we traded for Braylon and a Superbowl MVP in Holmes. Now we just drafted an ultra-talented, albeit raw, physical freak in Stephen Hill. The position definitely hasn't been neglected by our front office since Sanchez took over the reigns. Some of the moves just haven't panned out (Burress in particular).

    The bottom line is that from day one, Sanchez was placed in a situation that the majority of young QB's could only dream of. Most of these guys are drafted by teams with a swiss cheese OL and little offensive weapons to speak of. Hell, just look at Sam Bradford for a prime example. Can anyone even name a worthwhile player on that offense besides Steven Jackson?


    And I've never said that Sanchez should be carrying this team on his back week in and week out by year 3. I don't think he's the kind of player who will ever be the focal point of his teams offense. I hope I'm wrong, but I seriously doubt it. What I expected out of Sanchez last year was to become a more efficient QB. Improve his accuracy and cut down on the stupid mistakes and turnovers. Instead, he continued his extremely erratic play and turned the ball over more than any other player in the AFC.

    Great (and even good) QB's don't need their entire offense to be firing on all cylinders to perform at a halfway decent level. Unless our entire offensive unit is red hot, Sanchez looks lost out there.

    Either he steps up in a big way this season and proves that he has what it takes to be a franchise QB, or he'll be competing for a starting job elsewhere next season. The free passes have officially run out.

  8. #28
    [QUOTE=Untouchable;4501377]If Sanchez is always going to need everything on offense to go swimmingly well around him in order to be successful, then why the hell are we even wasting our time?
    [/QUOTE]

    Because we're the Jets?

  9. #29
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    [QUOTE=Rexipus Rex;4501358]Oh, I don't doubt one bit that he walked into an awesome situation in '09. What I disagree with when it comes to your viewpoint and mine is:

    [B]Tanny's offensive personnel moves in 2006-2008 versus 2009-2011[/B]:

    - Tannenbaum has been here for 6 full seasons. Let's look at the moves he's made on the offensive side of the football in his first three years (leading up to Sanchez) compared to his last three years, Sanchez's first three in the league. [I]Convince me[/I] that Tannenbaum has done a good job of evaluating offensive talent around Sanchez since Sanchez was drafted. I'm leaving out drafted and FA QBs since this is an argument based on talent around the QB.

    [U]Draft Picks & Notable Free Agents 2006-2008[/U]
    D'Brickashaw Ferguson ('06 draft)
    Nick Mangold ('06 draft)
    Brad Smith ('06 draft)
    Leon Washington ('06 draft)
    Kevan Barlow ('06 FA)
    Jacob Bender ('07 draft)
    Chansi Stuckey ('07 draft)
    Thomas Jones ('07 FA)
    Dustin Keller ('08 draft)
    Marcus Henry ('08 draft)
    Nate Garner ('08 draft)
    Damien Woody ('08 FA)
    Alan Faneca ('08 FA)
    Wayne Hunter ('08 FA)
    Tony Richardson ('08 FA)

    [U]Draft Picks and Notable Free Agents 2009-2011[/U]
    Shonn Greene ('09 draft)
    Matt Slauson ('09 draft)
    Ben Hartsock ('09 FA)
    Braylon Edwards ('09 trade)
    Vlad Ducasse ('10 draft)
    Joe McKnight ('10 draft)
    John Conner ('10 draft)
    LaDainian Tomlinson ('10 FA)
    Santonio Holmes ('10 trade)
    Bilal Powell ('11 draft)
    Jeremy Kerley ('11 draft)
    Scotty McKnight ('11 draft)
    Plaxico Burress ('11 FA)
    Derrick Mason ('11 FA)

    Can you honestly tell me with a straight face that the second list in any way stacks up to the top list?

    What I see is completely fecklessness when it comes to maintaining the offensive line... exhausting only two draft picks in the last three years on the OL is unacceptable, especially when only one of them was taken in the first three rounds. The other was solid value but he was still a 6th rounder and is a replacement level starter. That pales in comparison to the 2 long term starters, one an above average and one an All-Pro, plus the two quality vets in Fanceca/Woody from the first three years. The result? You're left with a journeyman swing tackle as your starter for back to back years. The best front offices continue to fortify their OLs even when they're performing at a high level. If you don't keep your eye on the ball, it comes back to bite you in the ass. Tanny has let this happen twice -- 2007 and 2011. Unacceptable.

    The constant juggling of the receiving corps has been discussed ad nauseam.

    The RB evaluation has been sub-par in the last three years. Granted some of these guys need more time, but at this point I have little faith in Bilal Powell even becoming a third down back. Thomas Jones, who was acquired in Tanny's first half of his GM stint, gave the Jets two Pro Bowl caliber seasons. We got one solid year out of Tomlinson, but Greene, McKnight, and Powell have done little to show they can come close to stacking up with Jones's productivity.

    I'd love to hear your thoughts. The Jets set the scene nicely to let Sanchez come in and play in 2009, but it is as if they thought all the work was done then and there and don't have to do anything to keep it a well-oiled machine or allow their QB to continuously grow. And please, I don't want to hear your unfounded argument that a QB is ready to take complete control of a team by year three. The examples of that are very few and far between.[/QUOTE]

    You know there is a simpler explanation to why our scouts can't seem to pick offensive players, and in fact why good players seem to decline when they arrive, and excel when they leave. The simpler explanation almost always being the truth. We will find out this year.

  10. #30
    [QUOTE=Untouchable;4501377]If Sanchez is always going to need everything on offense to go swimmingly well around him in order to be successful, then why the hell are we even wasting our time?[/QUOTE]

    Um, because other than about 7 QBs, all the other QBs in the league need quality talent around them in order for the offense and team to be successful. Do you want to sit around trying to find that needle in a haystack for a decade? I'd rather not potentially waste the careers of Darrelle Revis, David Harris, Nick Mangold, and D'Brickashaw Ferguson because the front office was trying to find a new QB every three years. Unstable teams or quick-fix teams don't win Super Bowls.

    [QUOTE=Untouchable;4501377]I agree that we've jumbled the receiving corps over the past two years. I was firmly against the Burress signing from day one. But let's not act like we didn't give Sanchez some help here. In his first two years we traded for Braylon and a Superbowl MVP in Holmes. Now we just drafted an ultra-talented, albeit raw, physical freak in Stephen Hill. The position definitely hasn't been neglected by our front office since Sanchez took over the reigns. Some of the moves just haven't panned out (Burress in particular).[/QUOTE]

    I liked the Edwards and Holmes trades, but keep in mind that both missed the first 4 games in the season in which they were acquired. And like musical chair position it is, Edwards was gone after 2010 as was Cotchery.

    The #1 and #2 receivers were the exact same from 2006-2008. Heading into 2012, this will be the FOURTH straight year where the #1 and #2 receivers will be a different combination.

    I never said it was neglected, that was the OL I was talking about (that you conveniently avoided to answer). My criticism has been that there's been no attempt at continuity. Perhaps that won't be the case in 2013, but perhaps Tannenbaum won't even be our GM in '13.

    Speaking of the OL, do you care to respond to my assessment of Tannenbaum's handling of the position group? Or maybe it just doesn't fit your argument?


    [QUOTE=Untouchable;4501377][B]The bottom line is that from day one, Sanchez was placed in a situation that the majority of young QB's could only dream of. [/B]Most of these guys are drafted by teams with a swiss cheese OL and little offensive weapons to speak of. Hell, just look at Sam Bradford for a prime example. Can anyone even name a worthwhile player on that offense besides Steven Jackson?[/QUOTE]

    He was, but has the front office done any maintenance on that side of the ball in the past 3 seasons? Based on my previous post, I'd say no. They've let the offensive side of the ball wilt away. They've watched the offensive line crumble before their eyes, they've offered horrible replacements to the RB unit, and they've had no sense of stability with the WR corps.

    If you think that the offensive personnel in 2011 and now is anything compared to that from 2008-2009, we must be seeing an entirely different thing here.

    And if we're comparing our talent evaluation and success to the Rams, who have won a grand total of 15 games in the last 5 seasons, then we've got bigger fish to fry.

    [QUOTE=Untouchable;4501377][B]And I've never said that Sanchez should be carrying this team on his back week in and week out by year 3.[/B] I don't think he's the kind of player who will ever be the focal point of his teams offense. I hope I'm wrong, but I seriously doubt it. What I expected out of Sanchez last year was to become a more efficient QB. Improve his accuracy and cut down on the stupid mistakes and turnovers. Instead, he continued his extremely erratic play and turned the ball over more than any other player in the AFC.[/QUOTE]

    Sounds like a different tune than you were singing in the previous months since the season ended.

  11. #31
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    [QUOTE=Kentucky Jet;4501372]and that "poor" QB coach is responsible for assisting the raw QB to get to two consecutive AFCCGs. I suppose we would have won a SB if the QB coach was any good! Get real! A coach puts players into position to win. If he can not do that he should be replaced! But INTS, fumbles, throwing to the wrong player including the opponents DEs are the fault of the QB. I think REX might know a thing or two more then you do about QB coaches. If you have more knowledge then REX in this category I suggest that you call the team owner and offer to accept a job as Rex's replacement![/QUOTE]

    I don't really understand the QB coach argument one way or the other. How any of us could possibly evaluate him is beyond me, but of course the coaches, the scheme, and playcalling all go into ints, fumbles, and throwing to the wrong players. Just ask Rex. He makes great QBs do that all the time. It's amazing that you would give the offensive coaches credit for going to the afcc, but give Mark none. I don't get you guys? I guess you know more than Rex because he just gave Mark an extension. Maybe you need to call the team yourself.

  12. #32
    [QUOTE=NY's stepchild;4501403]I don't really understand the QB coach argument one way or the other. How any of us could possibly evaluate him is beyond me, but of course the coaches, the scheme, and playcalling all go into ints, fumbles, and throwing to the wrong players. Just ask Rex. He makes great QBs do that all the time. It's amazing that you would give the offensive coaches credit for going to the afcc, but give Mark none. I don't get you guys? I guess you know more than Rex because he just gave Mark an extension. Maybe you need to call the team yourself.[/QUOTE]

    Well there is that little thing you're forgetting with Cavanaugh.. The fact he's sucked as a coach everywhere he's been. At every stop - sucked.

  13. #33
    [QUOTE=NY's stepchild;4501403]I don't really understand the QB coach argument one way or the other. How any of us could possibly evaluate him is beyond me, but of course the coaches, the scheme, and playcalling all go into ints, fumbles, and throwing to the wrong players. Just ask Rex. He makes great QBs do that all the time. It's amazing that you would give the offensive coaches credit for going to the afcc, but give Mark none. I don't get you guys? I guess you know more than Rex because he just gave Mark an extension. Maybe you need to call the team yourself.[/QUOTE]

    All I know is the Jets tried to trade to #2 this year for a QB (st. Louis confirmed but said the jets offer was not enough), they tried to get Manning (Mannings agent confirmed), they traded for a guy who will take snaps away from Sanchez (Tebow), the GM, and the coach have both been vocal that their QB needs to play better and finally they have brought in a new offensive coordinator who will be running a conservative offense which will be designed to minimize turnovers.

    The extension they gave Sanchez was to clear cap space, spread out his salary...

    With that said, does this sound like a team that 100% believes in their QB?

  14. #34
    [QUOTE=Joe W. Namath;4501194]Please show me the guy who would do this. The Tebow haters on this board are in so much fear that Mark is going to be replaced, that you have lost all perspective. You are building in an excuse if he plays poorly. You will say, "Well no one supported him. WAH WAH WAH!"

    Mark is the starting qb. Therefore, all Jet fans want him to succeed because that means the team is succeeding. But if he continues the subpar play he has shown in the past, it will be time to move to tebow.

    Nobody will be calamoring for tebow if mark is playing well. Nobody.
    This is a made up scenario by tebow haters.[/QUOTE]

    Dude, it's the reality of a standard distribution curve. Most, say 75 - 90% of people will be reasonable. Some 5-7% will be less than reasonable, and some small percentage remaining will just ***** no matter what.

  15. #35
    [QUOTE=Rexipus Rex;4501358]

    [U]Draft Picks & Notable Free Agents 2006-2008[/U]
    D'Brickashaw Ferguson ('06 draft)
    Nick Mangold ('06 draft)
    Brad Smith ('06 draft)
    Leon Washington ('06 draft)
    Kevan Barlow ('06 FA)
    Jacob Bender ('07 draft)
    Chansi Stuckey ('07 draft)
    Thomas Jones ('07 FA)
    Dustin Keller ('08 draft)
    Marcus Henry ('08 draft)
    Nate Garner ('08 draft)
    Damien Woody ('08 FA)
    Alan Faneca ('08 FA)
    Wayne Hunter ('08 FA)
    Tony Richardson ('08 FA)

    [U]Draft Picks and Notable Free Agents 2009-2011[/U]
    Shonn Greene ('09 draft)
    Matt Slauson ('09 draft)
    Ben Hartsock ('09 FA)
    Braylon Edwards ('09 trade)
    Vlad Ducasse ('10 draft)
    Joe McKnight ('10 draft)
    John Conner ('10 draft)
    LaDainian Tomlinson ('10 FA)
    Santonio Holmes ('10 trade)
    Bilal Powell ('11 draft)
    Jeremy Kerley ('11 draft)
    Scotty McKnight ('11 draft)
    Plaxico Burress ('11 FA)
    Derrick Mason ('11 FA)
    [/QUOTE]

    Knock Mangini all you want for being a terrible coach and not being as ballsy/aggressive as Rex but he was a heck of a drafter.

  16. #36
    [QUOTE=Monsterxman;4501512]All I know is the Jets tried to trade to #2 this year for a QB (st. Louis confirmed but said the jets offer was not enough)[/QUOTE]

    when exactly was this??

  17. #37
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    Are you kidding me?

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