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Thread: The U.S. Promotes Universal Health Care, but Only in Other Countries

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    Says everything about you and your type that needs said.

    You know better, you know best, and you'll use the force of Government by any means possible to force it on everyone, for their own good of course. After all, who cares about silly old freedom or liberty anyway as long as you get what you want, and you stay in control of us all, right?

    I reject that completely, and your silly comparison of roads to healthcare. I will not live under such Tyrany as you'd force upon me.

    Hopefully I am not alone. /shrug
    My "tyranny" would give you and everyone else less expensive coverage that's not tied to your job.

    Keep beating that drum of freedom. Freedom from less expensive, more humane and more efficient healthcare.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by SafetyBlitz View Post
    My "tyranny" would give you and everyone else less expensive coverage that's not tied to your job.

    Keep beating that drum of freedom. Freedom from less expensive, more humane and more efficient healthcare.
    Terrifying. Absolutely terrifying.

    How the hell did we get here?

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by JetPotato View Post
    Terrifying. Absolutely terrifying.

    How the hell did we get here?
    I often wonder that myself.

    Suffice it to say, there can be no meaningful bridge between what he believes and what I do.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    I often wonder that myself.

    Suffice it to say, there can be no meaningful bridge between what he believes and what I do.
    Sad, isn't it?

    We've created a culture in which many take for granted the blessings we have been given and instead look for more, without a single regard for the consequences. So much so that almost half the nation can read those posts and not see the severe, yet obvious flaw in the line of thinking just expressed.

    We get what we deserve I suppose.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by JetPotato View Post
    Sad, isn't it?

    We've created a culture in which many take for granted the blessings we have been given and instead look for more, without a single regard for the consequences. So much so that almost half the nation can read those posts and not see the severe, yet obvious flaw in the line of thinking just expressed.

    We get what we deserve I suppose.
    First, nothing has been given; there were a lot of sacrifices made from Americans of the left and right to get us to where we are today.

    Second, there was a reasonable compromise from a scary liberal that was ignored earlier;

    I would not want a system that is completely government run. The government has a long history of screwing up a lot of well-intended programs. I would like to see a process that combines private and public entities to control cost yet still create some competition. In my estimation, either end of the spectrum invites problems and corruption. Of course the devil is always in the details.


    I am a proud progressive democrat, who happens to be a history major, so the absurd stereotypes are a little much.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by intelligentjetsfan View Post
    First, nothing has been given; there were a lot of sacrifices made from Americans of the left and right to get us to where we are today.
    Relatively very little has been sacrificed by the average American in comparison to those that established this system of government, and those that have served this nation to protect those ideals. So yes, the freedom that you and I enjoy today was given to us. And is taken for granted at a level never before seen in the history of this nation. It is in fact, frequently and openly mocked.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by JetPotato View Post
    Relatively very little has been sacrificed by the average American in comparison to those that established this system of government, and those that have served this nation to protect those ideals. So yes, the freedom that you and I enjoy today was given to us. And is taken for granted at a level never before seen in the history of this nation. It is in fact, frequently and openly mocked.
    How many nameless graves are filled with Americans who were killed fighting for the essence of what this country stands for and right here at home? How many men and women died standing up for the ideals of what this country stands for by taking on slavery or women's rights or extremism within our own government? Too many to count is the answer.

    Sacrifice is shared by many and you are correct; too many people today do not realize the above.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by intelligentjetsfan View Post
    How many nameless graves are filled with Americans who were killed fighting for the essence of what this country stands for and right here at home? How many men and women died standing up for the ideals of what this country stands for by taking on slavery or women's rights or extremism within our own government? Too many to count is the answer.

    Sacrifice is shared by many and you are correct; too many people today do not realize the above.
    People died fighting for womens rights? I know plenty of Democrats died fighting to keep slavery going and plenty of Republicans died trying to get rid of slavery but I hadn't heard of deaths related to womens rights. Is there an incident you are referring to?

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by JetPotato View Post
    Sad, isn't it?

    We get what we deserve I suppose.
    We get the Government we deserve, yes. We also get the Government the People want, right or wrong to you or I.

    And the reality is that two centuries of almost universal success and geographical isolation (i.e. no local millitary threats) has led, in my view, to a devaluation of personal freedom and liberty, a devaluation of personal responsabillity and acdcountabillity, and a focus on collectivism and universal benefits, i.e. Euro-Style Social Welfareism.

    Just as I never bought the various "Massive Right Wing Conspiracy" ideas even now bandied about almost daily on the left, I also do not believe there is some grandiose left-wing conspiracy either. Dioshonesty, yes, but conspiracy, no. There is simply a considerably large number of Americans who believe more in a hybrid German/UK/Soviet type system than believe in the traditional American "Rugged Individualism" Capitalist system.

    So we will get what we deserve, and what we (as a whole) want. IMO that will be a continued move away from my ideals, towards those of Safety. More collectivism, more socialism (Govt. owning the means of production of certain industries), and less Freedom and liberty across the board. as Safety so clearly displays, they don't believe it's a cost, not now, and not the next time, or the next time, or the next time. As long as his side controls things, and they will given they're the party of "give to the majority, take from the minority", he is fine with a trade of freedoms for collective comforts.

    It's easy to rant against it, but it's bigger tham any of us here, it's our culture as a whole. Endless amounts of success (where our worst times still dwarf the ebst of most other nations in history) combined with almost no actual external threats to our security, and you get, predictably, this even-onward movement towards collectivism at the cost of freedom, IMO.

    If I were being honest, tater, I'd say the battle on this is already lost. The ideals and idealism of the founders was more then 200 years ago, we're a different Nation and a VERY different people now. It's why I need to remind myself from time to time that there really is no gain in debating here with Safety or the various Union folks. They've already won the War, even if they may lose an occasion battle. The only thing the individual can do is make the best of the system that will be thrust upon him.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefst2000 View Post
    People died fighting for womens rights? I know plenty of Democrats died fighting to keep slavery going and plenty of Republicans died trying to get rid of slavery but I hadn't heard of deaths related to womens rights. Is there an incident you are referring to?
    That's an easy one. Millions of innocent babies have died in the cause for "women's rights".

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    We get the Government we deserve, yes. We also get the Government the People want, right or wrong to you or I.

    And the reality is that two centuries of almost universal success and geographical isolation (i.e. no local millitary threats) has led, in my view, to a devaluation of personal freedom and liberty, a devaluation of personal responsabillity and acdcountabillity, and a focus on collectivism and universal benefits, i.e. Euro-Style Social Welfareism.

    Just as I never bought the various "Massive Right Wing Conspiracy" ideas even now bandied about almost daily on the left, I also do not believe there is some grandiose left-wing conspiracy either. Dioshonesty, yes, but conspiracy, no. There is simply a considerably large number of Americans who believe more in a hybrid German/UK/Soviet type system than believe in the traditional American "Rugged Individualism" Capitalist system.

    So we will get what we deserve, and what we (as a whole) want. IMO that will be a continued move away from my ideals, towards those of Safety. More collectivism, more socialism (Govt. owning the means of production of certain industries), and less Freedom and liberty across the board. as Safety so clearly displays, they don't believe it's a cost, not now, and not the next time, or the next time, or the next time. As long as his side controls things, and they will given they're the party of "give to the majority, take from the minority", he is fine with a trade of freedoms for collective comforts.

    It's easy to rant against it, but it's bigger tham any of us here, it's our culture as a whole. Endless amounts of success (where our worst times still dwarf the ebst of most other nations in history) combined with almost no actual external threats to our security, and you get, predictably, this even-onward movement towards collectivism at the cost of freedom, IMO.

    If I were being honest, tater, I'd say the battle on this is already lost. The ideals and idealism of the founders was more then 200 years ago, we're a different Nation and a VERY different people now. It's why I need to remind myself from time to time that there really is no gain in debating here with Safety or the various Union folks. They've already won the War, even if they may lose an occasion battle. The only thing the individual can do is make the best of the system that will be thrust upon him.
    I agree with most of this Fist, a very good post, except for one thing. While I agree that the "war has been won", I believe all things to be cyclical.

    Just as our relative comfort has left us complacent, spoiled and unable to grasp the consequences of the things we're sacrificing, I believe we will soon enter into a period of discontent. When the unsustainable nature of these policies lead to an inevitable drop in the quality of life of a majority of our citizens, there will be another shift. And add to that, when we continue to enable and strengthen those we all openly recognize as corrupt and power hungry, we eventually lose all power to control them. We're getting very close to that point. Those that have learned nothing from history will dismiss this as hyperbole, but the snowball has started rolling, and you're correct that we're too late to stop it. It won't be until it has rolled over us that individual freedom will once again become valued en mass.

    This has been the pattern throughout centuries of human history. Our inability to remember this is our biggest failure.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by JetPotato View Post
    That's an easy one. Millions of innocent babies have died in the cause for "women's rights".
    Or the countless women who died from abusive men because they had few options but to continue to be abused in a society that did not recognize them as equal to men.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    Healthcare is a service, provided by other human beings labors. It is not a right. Nothing that someone else has to work to provide is.

    One man's "right" cannot and should not ever make another man a slave to the State to provide him with that "right".

    I'm all for assiting our disabled, elderly and former-soldiers, and with strict limitations our currently poor.

    I'm not for free **** for lazy ****wad able-bodied people a la the UK. if you want healthcare, work for it. I do. They can too.
    Just an observation ... on the topic of healthcare (and most issues tbqh), you frequently shoot down all ideas and policies as being nothing more than an offensive, collectivist scheme which brings the country closer to complete socialism.

    So what exactly is your solution?

    Do you even think a solution is needed or everything is/was perfectly fine with the status quo system?

    Just curious as I don't recall reading a Warfish grand solution to a very broken healthcare system (in my opinion).

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by parafly View Post
    Just an observation ... on the topic of healthcare (and most issues tbqh), you frequently shoot down all ideas and policies as being nothing more than an offensive, collectivist scheme which brings the country closer to complete socialism.

    So what exactly is your solution?

    Do you even think a solution is needed or everything is/was perfectly fine with the status quo system?

    Just curious as I don't recall reading a Warfish grand solution to a very broken healthcare system (in my opinion).
    I won't speak for Fish but for many people who are set in their beliefs (regardless of idealogy) it is easier to marginalize their point of view by fitting people into categories. When you boil it down to its simpliest form it makes it easier to say "my way is the correct way" because you can marginalize the dissenting point of view. It gets frustrating for people who are set in their ways of thinking to have to consider grey areas when its easier to look at issues in black and white.

    As an example its easier to believe that all liberals are communist or all capitalists are fascists etc, etc.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by intelligentjetsfan View Post
    Or the countless women who died from abusive men because they had few options but to continue to be abused in a society that did not recognize them as equal to men.
    Right. That was society's fault. Not the fault of those abusive men.

    Why don't we blame society for all the murders in history? No single person is truly responsible. Maybe they didn't get enough hugs.
    Last edited by JetPotato; 07-03-2012 at 11:39 AM.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by intelligentjetsfan View Post
    Or the countless women who died from abusive men because they had few options but to continue to be abused in a society that did not recognize them as equal to men.
    The good 'ole days. When a man was a man and a woman was a woman.

    Stop apologizing for America and the white man.

    Sure mistakes were made, but show me a man or country that has never made mistakes. I like our track record compared to those of others.
    Last edited by DDNYjets; 07-03-2012 at 11:32 AM.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by parafly View Post
    Just an observation ... on the topic of healthcare (and most issues tbqh), you frequently shoot down all ideas and policies as being nothing more than an offensive, collectivist scheme which brings the country closer to complete socialism.

    So what exactly is your solution?

    Do you even think a solution is needed or everything is/was perfectly fine with the status quo system?

    Just curious as I don't recall reading a Warfish grand solution to a very broken healthcare system (in my opinion).
    It's been posted over the years, but I'll give you the (for me) brief version.

    You will not like it.

    It's based on Personal Choice, Freedom and Personal Accountabillity.

    1. Health Insurance is as it is now, a private service offered by private business, via the usual workings of a private contract. Insurance is regulated (a mammoth thread of it's own to cover specifics of course, and devil's in the details). People can buy it on their own, or if their employers wish to provide it as a benefit. People can choose to buy it, or choose not to.

    2. The truly poor, truly diabaled, elderly (65 now, maybe older later on) and all former U.S. Soldiers can opt into a system of State-Provided coverage. For these folks, the State can have total authority to run the system however they wish, as long as it's effective and efficient.

    3. For others who want to join teh State system, but are not poor/disabled/elderly or soldiers, they can.....if they buy in at 100% cost. No taxpayer money will be spent to provide these people anythign discounted or free. Their change, via premium or deducatble, will be enough to cover the costs (of this group taken as a whole). And no accounting tricsk or slight-of-hand either, both things of Govt. is famous for.

    3. If/when you show up for care, if you are covered, great. If you are not, you are billed for the services, and that bill cannot ever be dodged via bankruptcy or any other abandonment of debt. You get the service, and are not insured, you will pay for it. That is accountabillity. it also enocurages, in ways far better than a tax system IMO, people to be proactive with their freedoms and aquire coverage. On the flipside, the provider must work with the care recipient to have a payback that will actually pay back, even if it's at $20/month for a long time. Alot of law would have to back this one, sadly.

    4. Private/Public partnership to craft a private insurance system that starts with "big horrible emergency" coverage first, cheapest, and works up from there, in terms of coverage and costs. I believe that less regulation in some spots, more in others, and changes to yet others, would allow a more broad spectrum of plans and coverages to be available.

    5. Portabillity and Tort Reform are a given. Even if they don;t help much, they're the right things to do and will help at least some in reduction of costs.

    6. Focus on health, not conveneince or choices. Getting a hardon, having a sex change, or even an abortion or a hair weave is not healthcare in my view, it's a personal choice. Insurance does not pay for your personal choices. It pays for your health. I'm somewhat flexable on this item in general, as things like lung cancer and obesity and broken bones via activity are also choices, and should also engender higher costs, and of course differing plans can provide differing level so fcoverage for these via higher costs of course.

    7. A "Honesty in Coverage" Act, where the terms of Coverage are provided to the covered in far more simple, basic, direct language, without the endless reams of lawyerly weasel words and backsdoors and the like. This one is a tough one, given how deeply entrenched lawyer-speak is now, but it's vital. To be an informed consumer, the consumer must be able to read their coverage documents.

    8. Legalize Prostitution and Pot, we'll all be happier, better safer sexed, more free, and can spend all the shiney new tax dollars generated and law enforcement dolalrs saved on bettering our health.

    9. No one is still reading this now, so I'll just say blah, blah, blah, and stop writing now.
    Last edited by Warfish; 07-03-2012 at 11:55 AM.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by intelligentjetsfan View Post
    As an example its easier to believe that all liberals are communist or all capitalists are fascists etc, etc.
    No, many modern liberals are both Facist (Promponents of absolute state power) and Communists (in that the aim of that absolute state power should be in the form of forced colelctivism).

    Switch Communist with Corporate Oligarchy, and you have many modern "conservatives".

    Smoke a joint and chill, and you have us Libertarians.

    Round and round we go.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    9. No one is still reading this now, so I'll just say blah, blah, blah, and stop writing now.
    I was still reading.

    Can't say I disagree with most of your plan. It would be far better than what we had recently and now have with ACA.

    Thanks for sharing, much appreciated.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by intelligentjetsfan View Post
    How many nameless graves are filled with Americans who were killed fighting for the essence of what this country stands for and right here at home? How many men and women died standing up for the ideals of what this country stands for by taking on slavery or women's rights or extremism within our own government? Too many to count is the answer.

    Sacrifice is shared by many and you are correct; too many people today do not realize the above.

    So how many people currently have made these great sacrifices? Have YOU carried the rifle BTW? And your sacrifices and that of the OWS people (as an example) are what exactly?
    How many illegals sneaking over the border have made these great sacrifices for our country?
    Most of the fighting has been for freedom and to protect ourselves from aggressors. Korea and Vietnam were proxy wars against foes who ssomewaht "sat it out".
    Nobody is fighting for "women's prorective rights". I am going to die for that? F that.

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