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Thread: Greene - not very impressive (inherently) & his 2009 playoff meal ticket is expired

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by NY2FLDWC85 View Post
    All I'm saying is this... If you want an elite RB? A true game changing, impact type of running back? You draft during the 1st and 2nd rounds. Look at all these HOF Backs. 1st rounders. Look at the elite talents of today's NFL? 1st and 2nd rounders with an occasional Foster type of diamond in the rough. Not which, but how many late rounders can compare with the likes of Adrian Peterson, Matt Forte, Ray Rice, Lashawn McCoy, Jones-Drew, Darren McFadden, Chris Johnson, Jonathan Stewart etc, etc? These are the premier RB's of today's NFL.

    If you're not willing to see our front office go RB during the 1st round (I know I am), I don't believe that you have a right to complain about Shonn Greene's production. We paid for a 3rd rounder, which is what we have. A solid 3rd rounder at that. Release Shonn Greene today? And he's picked up by 31 NFL teams around the league by tomorrow.

    The kid rushed for over 1,000 yards as a 1st year starter/3rd year player. Put up an average of 4.2 yards per carry behind an offensive line that became completely depleted by seasons end. Not sure what anyone else can expect out of an early 3rd round back? He rushed the ball 9 fewer times than Chris Johnson, but still put up 7 rushing yards more than CJ. Was only 37 rushing yards shy of cracking the top 10. His 6 rushing TD's tied Fred Jackson, Bush, Benson, Tebow and Mathews. Only 1 rushing TD behind DeAngelo Williams and Brandon Jacobs. Only 2 rushing TD's behind Frank Gore and Jones-Drew. Last but not least, only 3 rushing TD's away from cracking the top 10. On a side note, Greene was only 6 first downs runs away from cracking the top 10 and only 12 rushing 1st downs away from cracking the top 5.

    You put a healthy offensive line in front of Shonn Greene, with opposing defenses having to respect our Quarterbacks ability? And who knows how productive Shonn Greene can truly become. Top 10 back? No. Competes as a top 12-15 back? Without question. If he breaks out as a 2nd year starter/4th year player, as a fan base? We could be on the verge of considering Greene (production wise) a top 10 back heading into next offseason.

    I want an explosive Adrian Peterson, Matt Forte, Ray Rice, Lashawn McCoy, Jones-Drew, Darren McFadden, Chris Johnson and Jonathan Stewart type of 1st round talent as well, but I'm also thankful that we have Shonn Greene as a cheap, productive, 3rd round back moving forward (for the time being).

    Many fans quickly forget, how Shonn Greene feasted during the 2009 playoffs. Combined for 44 rushing attempts, 263 rushing yards, an average of 5.9 yards per carry to go along with 2 rushing TD's (against the Bengals and Chargers). When Shonn Greene went down against the Colts after rushing for 41 yards off of 10 carries? Our offense went to crap.

    Even during the 2010 playoffs, Shonn Greene was productive. Put the dagger in against the Patriots with a 20 yard rushing TD during the 4th quarter. Also rushed for an average of 4.5 yards per carry on the road in NE. Rushed for a total of 76 yards, which doesn't sound much, but still comes out to an average of 1,216 yards during a 16 game season. What about the Steelers games? Blame Shotty Jr for getting away from the run. Greene had 52 rushes after only 9 rushing attempts; an average of 5.8 yards per carry against a great Steelers run defense.

    I'm actually looking forward to a more powerful rushing attack being led by Greene and Tebow with Sparano putting the offensive game plan together.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by CraigFL View Post
    I don't get it, Greene doesn't break off long runs too often, and doesn't make many people miss, yet he did average 4.2 ypc behind a beat up line last year.
    Because the offensive line did a good job run blocking last year. 7th best in the league.

    Pass blocking and run blocking aren't related to one another. The line did a bad job in pass protection and a good job in the running game (though not as good as they had been in '09 and '10).
    Last edited by JB1089; 07-03-2012 at 01:21 PM.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB1089 View Post
    Because the offensive line did a good job run blocking last year. 7th best in the league.

    Pass blocking and run blocking aren't related to one another. The line did a bad job in pass protection and a good job in the running game (though not as good as they had been in '09 and '10).
    Where are you getting "7th best in the league" from?

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Jordy View Post
    Where are you getting "7th best in the league" from?
    Offensive Lines


    It's the "Adjusted Line Yards." Explanations for everything are given at the top.

  5. #105
    Greene is a serviceable player and definitely our best option. He is not, however, the star that some of us pegged him to be after his breakout 2009 playoff run. Anyone expecting him to be that player will be disappointed. BUT he gives decent production if you can open holes for him. He's not a guy who will make people miss or turn a blown up play into something positive. He needs space to operate, but has proven to be very effective once he gets a head of steam.

    If you want to take a look at the larger picture, there's really nothing on the entire Jets offense that is going to scare opposing Ds. It's an average set of skills players (at best). Hopefully Hill can be a star, but it's unrealistic to expect big production from a 2nd round rookie WR.

  6. #106
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    Greene is not the issue with the Jet offense. He was a better back last year the Ahmad Bradshaw. And he got a ring. If everyone else does their job this year he will excel

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by BRONX JET View Post
    Greene is not the issue with the Jet offense. He was a better back last year the Ahmad Bradshaw. And he got a ring. If everyone else does their job this year he will excel
    So you are saying the jets should go big name QB, and dominant front 4....interesting. I agree.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by NY's stepchild View Post
    You bolded Warrick Dunn and left off Alstott, and Johston. You got something against Fullbacks? nothing wrong with Ironhead from Passaic either. Not the greatest, but certainly not the worst pick.
    Quote Originally Posted by NY2FLDWC85 View Post
    You must have taken some time in order to look all that up, so I credit you for that. I do feel that Daryl "Moose" Johnston should be in bold. One of the greatest run blocking FB's who led the way for Smith throughout the 90's. Mike Alstott was also one of the greatest/most powerful running FB's I've ever seen. Rodney Hamton was another player listed on that list, which game me flashback memories of the early 90's. One hell of a powerful HB during his prime years. Didn't last too long though. His style of rushing attack wouldn't allow it. Loved Natrone Means, but he quickly broke down as well.

    All in all, I'd like to see a list of 1st/2nd round QB's over the years as well... There would be just as many bust's, if not more. Same goes for the WR position etc, etc.
    Feel free to add Alstott and Moose as "stud" fullbacks. I was focusing on yardage and TDs and big play ability. So instead of 25 "studs" make it 27. Add 'em all up and you have 152 backs drafted in rounds 1 & 2 over the past 25 years and only 27 of them, just under 18% would be considered elite and I'll bet some of those I bolded might not be rated as highly by some (i.e. Warrick Dunn and Tiki Barber). Still that's just about 17 - 18% of all the backs drafted in rounds 1 & 2. Goes to show you just how hard it is to find a gem... even in the first two rounds. It makes me wonder how much worse the percentage is from rounds 3 - 7.

    Break it down by round and there are 82 1st rounders and I think 70 2nd rounders. I'll throw in Alstott and Moose as well as Forte to add to the 2nd round "stud" numbers (although Forte's body of work is incomplete as of now). That gives us 17 out of 82 1st round RB studs, just under 21% and 10 out of 70 2nd round RB studs, just over 14%. I'd love to factor in "bust" percentages, but the definition of "bust" will vary from person to person. We can all agree that Blair Thomas and Roger Vick were busts, but I'd venture a guess that there would be argument over many others. Then there are the very good backs, but just short of "stud" caliber, such as Rodney Hampton, who many would place in the stud category with 5 1,000+ rushing yard seasons out of 8.

    In the end, that GMs only have about a 21%/14% 1st/2nd round chance at drafting a RB stud is far less than I would have expected. Gotta give credit to the GMs that pull it off.
    Last edited by Dcat; 07-04-2012 at 12:16 AM.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dcat View Post
    Feel free to add Alstott and Moose as "stud" fullbacks. I was focusing on yardage and TDs and big play ability. So instead of 25 "studs" make it 27. Add 'em all up and you have 152 backs drafted in rounds 1 & 2 over the past 25 years and only 27 of them, just under 18% would be considered elite and I'll bet some of those I bolded might not be rated as highly by some (i.e. Warrick Dunn and Tiki Barber). Still that's just about 17 - 18% of all the backs drafted in rounds 1 & 2. Goes to show you just how hard it is to find a gem... even in the first two rounds. It makes me wonder how much worse the percentage is from rounds 3 - 7.

    Break it down by round and there are 82 1st rounders and I think 70 2nd rounders. I'll throw in Alstott and Moose as well as Forte to add to the 2nd round "stud" numbers (although Forte's body of work is incomplete as of now). That gives us 17 out of 82 1st round RB studs, just under 21% and 10 out of 70 2nd round RB studs, just over 14%. I'd love to factor in "bust" percentages, but the definition of "bust" will vary from person to person. We can all agree that Blair Thomas and Roger Vick were busts, but I'd venture a guess that there would be argument over many others. Then there are the very good backs, but just short of "stud" caliber, such as Rodney Hampton, who many would place in the stud category with 5 1,000+ rushing yard seasons out of 8.

    In the end, that GMs only have about a 21%/14% 1st/2nd round chance at drafting a RB stud is far less than I would have expected. Gotta give credit to the GMs that pull it off.
    I see where you're coming from, but I believe the same can be said for any position, especially the quarterback position. The draft is a crap shoot, which is why the success rate is so low (for every position drafted) but I just feel and believe that you have a much greater chance of landing an elite RB during the 1st and/or 2nd rounds when compared to the later rounds. Which is simple logic, which is why I've never understood why the same fans who are completely against drafting a potential elite back during the 1st round, then become the same fans currently complaining about Shonn Greene's production despite the fact that it's surpassed that of a 3rd rounder.

    I'd add Kevin Faulk to that list of stud's. One of the greatest 3rd down backs of all-time and contributed to multiple championships with NE.

    Larry Johnson never ended up being great, his style of rushing wouldn't allow it, but the power back had two of the greatest (back to back) seasons I've ever seen back in 2005 and 2006. Rushed for a combined 3,539 rushing yards, 188 1st down rushes and 37 TD's. 4.7 yards per carry. I was positive that he'd become the greatest power back since Bettis but his career quickly went down hill after 2005-2006.

    I'd have to add Willis McGahee to a list of impact runners as well. This kid was as elite as they came before his college injury. If he never went down in college? He could have gone down as an all-time great one. He manged to bounce back and recover from his Miami University injury, and he's since been in the league for 8 years with 7,366 rushing yards, 4.1 yards per carry with 59 rushing TD's. Add another 1,098 career receiving yards and McGahee has made an NFL impact (and still going strong at the age of 30).

    I agree not listing Ronnie Brown as an elite back, but damn, if that kid stayed healthy? We're talking greatness. Injuries destroyed his career although he's still playing (With SD now).

    Benson is fighting hard to make this list. He's a franchise back. Very underrated. He's at 5,769 rushing yards at the age of 28, got a late start to his career in Chicago but the Bengals have given him a chance. He's since put up 3 consecutive seasons of 1,000+ yards.

    I would honestly add both DeAngelo Williams and Jonathan Stewart to that list. Both elite backs, they just happen to share the backfield together. Both would be feature backs on at least 15-20 teams around the league.

    The book has yet to be written on Marshawn Lynch, Darren McFadden and Rashard Mendenhall, but I do love all 3 talents.
    Last edited by NY2FLDWC85; 07-04-2012 at 02:04 AM.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by NY2FLDWC85 View Post
    I see where you're coming from, but I believe the same can be said for any position, especially the quarterback position. The draft is a crap shoot, which is why the success rate is so low (for every position drafted) but I just feel and believe that you have a much greater chance of landing an elite RB during the 1st and/or 2nd rounds when compared to the later rounds. Which is simple logic, which is why I've never understood why the same fans who are completely against drafting a potential elite back during the 1st round, then become the same fans currently complaining about Shonn Greene's production despite the fact that it's surpassed that of a 3rd rounder.

    I'd add Kevin Faulk to that list of stud's. One of the greatest 3rd down backs of all-time and contributed to multiple championships with NE.

    Larry Johnson never ended up being great, his style of rushing wouldn't allow it, but the power back had two of the greatest (back to back) seasons I've ever seen back in 2005 and 2006. Rushed for a combined 3,539 rushing yards, 188 1st down rushes and 37 TD's. 4.7 yards per carry. I was positive that he'd become the greatest power back since Bettis but his career quickly went down hill after 2005-2006.

    I'd have to add Willis McGahee to a list of impact runners as well. This kid was as elite as they came before his college injury. If he never went down in college? He could have gone down as an all-time great one. He manged to bounce back and recover from his Miami University injury, and he's since been in the league for 8 years with 7,366 rushing yards, 4.1 yards per carry with 59 rushing TD's. Add another 1,098 career receiving yards and McGahee has made an NFL impact (and still going strong at the age of 30).

    I agree not listing Ronnie Brown as an elite back, but damn, if that kid stayed healthy? We're talking greatness. Injuries destroyed his career although he's still playing (With SD now).

    Benson is fighting hard to make this list. He's a franchise back. Very underrated. He's at 5,769 rushing yards at the age of 28, got a late start to his career in Chicago but the Bengals have given him a chance. He's since put up 3 consecutive seasons of 1,000+ yards.

    I would honestly add both DeAngelo Williams and Jonathan Stewart to that list. Both elite backs, they just happen to share the backfield together. Both would be feature backs on at least 15-20 teams around the league.

    The book has yet to be written on Marshawn Lynch, Darren McFadden and Rashard Mendenhall, but I do love all 3 talents.

    How long did it take to construct the above post? What references do you use?
    Last edited by ASG0531; 07-04-2012 at 03:05 AM.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savage69 View Post
    They were in the 60's, 70's and 80's also one of the best was the tandum of Csonka,Kiick and Mercury Morris.. We had Snell and Boozer and in the 80's Freeman and Hector..
    Long Gaines Dierking...led the league in rushing.

  12. #112
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    It's good to see Greene getting so much hate around here. Greene is is not a superstar by any stretch, but he's also not a liability, or an extreme weakness. His biggest problem is staying on the field. If Greene didn't miss the time he did in a few games, he was a top 10 rusher last season(missed the top ten by 40 yards as it is.)

    He is serviceable, and as the pass game improves and the O-Line gets back to form(or at least we hope) Greene will not be getting dogged nearly as much.

    He'll probably never be a superstar with huge play potential, but there is nothing wrong with someone that averages 4.2-4.5 yards a carry and can get into the endzone. Ask Curtis Martin.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by iahawkeyejet View Post
    It's good to see Greene getting so much hate around here. Greene is is not a superstar by any stretch, but he's also not a liability, or an extreme weakness. His biggest problem is staying on the field. If Greene didn't miss the time he did in a few games, he was a top 10 rusher last season(missed the top ten by 40 yards as it is.)

    He is serviceable, and as the pass game improves and the O-Line gets back to form(or at least we hope) Greene will not be getting dogged nearly as much.

    He'll probably never be a superstar with huge play potential, but there is nothing wrong with someone that averages 4.2-4.5 yards a carry and can get into the endzone. Ask Curtis Martin.
    Exactly. And he is improving catching the ball. I don't know what people want. He is not A.P., but who is. If the line does its Job, and Sanchez has just a decent year, Greene will be fine.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by PatsFanTX View Post
    Shonn Greene is the least of the Jets problems this year.
    Even so, the Jets overall have less problems than the Patriots if Brady were to go down. Wrap 'em up and put little bows on 'em, they'd be done.

    I am always amazed at how Pats fans think they're so much better than the rest of the league. Maybe in 2008 they barely had enough talent to survive a Brady injury with some success. Not since then, though. The Patsies success is in a rather fragile state, more so than the Jets, as they have more overall team talent, just instability at QB (that was exacerbated by a terrible OC and harsh media for years), and a good, but less proven head coach (well, most coaches in the NFL are less proven than BB, compared to most of the league, Rex Ryan has a better track record than many). If I were a Pats fan, I'd acknowledge that. But many don't. I've been a Spurs fan since 1990 (in that period, they have had equal or better success to the Pats - and if it weren't for the ratings-skewed officiating in the NBA playoffs, they'd have even more), and I do not go to opposing teams message boards mocking them. It seems so childish, like high school sophomore stuff.

    I'm curious to see what these Pats fan trolls will do if Brady is hurt and/or when he and BB retires. Will they still troll other teams MBs if they are back in the cellar where they mostly were before 1993? They haven't been truly terrible since the internet became accessible to the average household. Curious to see that day.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by NY2FLDWC85 View Post
    All I'm saying is this... If you want an elite RB? A true game changing, impact type of running back? You draft during the 1st and 2nd rounds. Look at all these HOF Backs. 1st rounders. Look at the elite talents of today's NFL? 1st and 2nd rounders with an occasional Foster type of diamond in the rough. Not which, but how many late rounders can compare with the likes of Adrian Peterson, Matt Forte, Ray Rice, Lashawn McCoy, Jones-Drew, Darren McFadden, Chris Johnson, Jonathan Stewart etc, etc? These are the premier RB's of today's NFL.

    If you're not willing to see our front office go RB during the 1st round (I know I am), I don't believe that you have a right to complain about Shonn Greene's production. We paid for a 3rd rounder, which is what we have. A solid 3rd rounder at that. Release Shonn Greene today? And he's picked up by 31 NFL teams around the league by tomorrow.

    The kid rushed for over 1,000 yards as a 1st year starter/3rd year player. Put up an average of 4.2 yards per carry behind an offensive line that became completely depleted by seasons end. Not sure what anyone else can expect out of an early 3rd round back? He rushed the ball 9 fewer times than Chris Johnson, but still put up 7 rushing yards more than CJ. Was only 37 rushing yards shy of cracking the top 10. His 6 rushing TD's tied Fred Jackson, Bush, Benson, Tebow and Mathews. Only 1 rushing TD behind DeAngelo Williams and Brandon Jacobs. Only 2 rushing TD's behind Frank Gore and Jones-Drew. Last but not least, only 3 rushing TD's away from cracking the top 10. On a side note, Greene was only 6 first downs runs away from cracking the top 10 and only 12 rushing 1st downs away from cracking the top 5.

    You put a healthy offensive line in front of Shonn Greene, with opposing defenses having to respect our Quarterbacks ability? And who knows how productive Shonn Greene can truly become. Top 10 back? No. Competes as a top 12-15 back? Without question. If he breaks out as a 2nd year starter/4th year player, as a fan base? We could be on the verge of considering Greene (production wise) a top 10 back heading into next offseason.

    I want an explosive Adrian Peterson, Matt Forte, Ray Rice, Lashawn McCoy, Jones-Drew, Darren McFadden, Chris Johnson and Jonathan Stewart type of 1st round talent as well, but I'm also thankful that we have Shonn Greene as a cheap, productive, 3rd round back moving forward (for the time being).

    Many fans quickly forget, how Shonn Greene feasted during the 2009 playoffs. Combined for 44 rushing attempts, 263 rushing yards, an average of 5.9 yards per carry to go along with 2 rushing TD's (against the Bengals and Chargers). When Shonn Greene went down against the Colts after rushing for 41 yards off of 10 carries? Our offense went to crap.

    Even during the 2010 playoffs, Shonn Greene was productive. Put the dagger in against the Patriots with a 20 yard rushing TD during the 4th quarter. Also rushed for an average of 4.5 yards per carry on the road in NE. Rushed for a total of 76 yards, which doesn't sound much, but still comes out to an average of 1,216 yards during a 16 game season. What about the Steelers games? Blame Shotty Jr for getting away from the run. Greene had 52 rushes after only 9 rushing attempts; an average of 5.8 yards per carry against a great Steelers run defense.

    I'm actually looking forward to a more powerful rushing attack being led by Greene and Tebow with Sparano putting the offensive game plan together.
    good post.

  16. #116
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    As for Greene, he is what he is - a straight-ahead power runner back who is great when a hole is opened and he sees daylight, but struggles to make people miss and create his own play. Add to that he seems to have nagging rib problems that slow his power game down.

    If we can use him along with a RB by committee with the others on our roster, we'll be OK. Greene has always been a finisher (his great late-game runs in the playoffs to finish off teams are what we know him for), but he's never been an every-down back who can churn out consistent 1st through 3rd down yardage. We need more RBs in addition to Greene, not cut him and replace him with nothing (or our unproven backs behind him).

    I am always amazed at my fellow Jets fans who always profess the desire to cut players without equal-or-better replacements in tow. It always puzzles me. Is it what we learned in all the 40+ years of perennial rebuilding without a Super Bowl? Cut and start over? Every few years? If Greene's gone next year, then like many said, we'd need to draft an RB in the 1st or 2nd round next year. But not now.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by iahawkeyejet View Post
    It's good to see Greene getting so much hate around here. Greene is is not a superstar by any stretch, but he's also not a liability, or an extreme weakness. His biggest problem is staying on the field. If Greene didn't miss the time he did in a few games, he was a top 10 rusher last season(missed the top ten by 40 yards as it is.)

    He is serviceable, and as the pass game improves and the O-Line gets back to form(or at least we hope) Greene will not be getting dogged nearly as much.

    He'll probably never be a superstar with huge play potential, but there is nothing wrong with someone that averages 4.2-4.5 yards a carry and can get into the endzone. Ask Curtis Martin.
    Shonn Greene isn't close to be a top ten RB in this league. Last year you had alot of injuries at that position (DMC Jamaal Charles , and A Peterson) and some guys due to contract dispute(chris johnson) under performed last season.

    Shonn Greene is very good number 2 type of running back. They need to find that number 1 type back they can eventually team with Shonn Greene , to give them the best running back by committee as possible.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raider9175 View Post
    Shonn Greene isn't close to be a top ten RB in this league. Last year you had alot of injuries at that position (DMC Jamaal Charles , and A Peterson) and some guys due to contract dispute(chris johnson) under performed last season.

    Shonn Greene is very good number 2 type of running back. They need to find that number 1 type back they can eventually team with Shonn Greene , to give them the best running back by committee as possible.
    Not necessary. If they can get McKnight going as a change of pace they will be fine. All those backs you named normally watch the playoffs at home like the rest of us.

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by BRONX JET View Post
    Not necessary. If they can get McKnight going as a change of pace they will be fine. All those backs you named normally watch the playoffs at home like the rest of us.
    First off that like blaming the Texans offense for why they didn't make the playoffs all those years. Only when they put a top defense out there they became a playoff team.


    The Jets Rb committee you think is very impressive.(especially for a team that wants to be ground and pound). Where do you rank the Jets running back committee in comparison with the rest of the league. The Jets know it could be better and why Tim Tebow(as a wildcat QB) was brought in to help out that running game. JMO Jet running game is pretty good in 2012 expect Tim Tebow running out of wildcat as the biggest reason.
    Last edited by Raider9175; 07-04-2012 at 10:29 AM.

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