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Thread: Should Knicks match a backloaded deal for Lin?

  1. #61
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    “Letting Jeremy Lin go is the right economic decision for MSG’s stock,” Martin says. “He’s so expensive that the revenue that they would lose would be half of the cost of keeping him.”

    http://blogs.wsj.com/marketbeat/2012...mp-jeremy-lin/

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by SMC View Post
    It's 100% true, at least according to multiple reports. Atkinson was a mentor for Lin and the day Lin orally agreed to 5-5-9 he had dinner with Atkinson and told him about it.

    I don't know about markets, but it's hard to believe that Houston is 3rd, unless we're talking about the Yao Ming bounce from a few years ago. Lin is no way on that level.
    I am trying to get a better understanding of the issue. Did Lin agree orally to a contract that the knicks could match? and then go back to Houston and tell them to increase the Contract?

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Jordy View Post
    “Letting Jeremy Lin go is the right economic decision for MSG’s stock,” Martin says. “He’s so expensive that the revenue that they would lose would be half of the cost of keeping him.”

    http://blogs.wsj.com/marketbeat/2012...mp-jeremy-lin/
    Now that's interesting... Obviously something Dolan would care deeply about...

    I assumed the last few days were spent pouring over numbers and whether it was financially beneficial to keep him, as opposed to what it should have been... "Are we a better team if we keep him."

  4. #64
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    I imagine the Knicks will wait until the very last minute to announce their decision.

    Make Houston and Lin sweat it out as much as possible.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by NPTJET53 View Post
    I am trying to get a better understanding of the issue. Did Lin agree orally to a contract that the knicks could match? and then go back to Houston and tell them to increase the Contract?
    Reportedly, Lin agreed to terms of a contract with Houston before the NBA transactions signing/trade day of July 11th...Nothing was signed...When terms leaked out the Knicks (Mike Woodson) said they would match based on the reported contract terms..No contract had been signed yet...So since no contract offer was signed and presented to the Knicks to review and match, Lin's agent and Houston decided to up the contract to try and prevent the Knicks from matching...Lin didn't sign the actual Houston offer until Saturday night.

  6. #66
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    Bye Lin.

    I don't understand why everyone is caught up in this guy. Is Houston bringing in D'Antoni?

    He started 25 games, got embarrassed against the good PGs and sucks on defense. Then he sat out in the playoffs when he could have played.

    Goodbye and good luck. Thanks for the 2 weeks, it was fun.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by C Mart View Post
    Reportedly, Lin agreed to terms of a contract with Houston before the NBA transactions signing/trade day of July 11th...Nothing was signed...When terms leaked out the Knicks (Mike Woodson) said they would match based on the reported contract terms..No contract had been signed yet...So since no contract offer was signed and presented to the Knicks to review and match, Lin's agent and Houston decided to up the contract to try and prevent the Knicks from matching...Lin didn't sign the actual Houston offer until Saturday night.
    I believe Lin shared details with a Knicks' assistant coach that it would be 5-5-9. That was the proposal Mike Woodson was basing his remarks on. Then Lin's agent went back to Houston and turned the 9 into 14.5.

    When the Knicks saw the actual offer sheet, they made the deal for Felton.

    That's the way I understand it.

  8. #68
    Q.
    How can a single salary create such a large tax hit?
    A.
    Lin’s salary is not the sole culprit. The Knicks are projected to be over the tax line in 2014-15 because of the combined salaries of Carmelo Anthony ($24.4 million), Amar’e Stoudemire ($23.4 million) and Tyson Chandler ($14.6 million). Lin’s salary merely increases the bill. Under the N.B.A.’s new luxury tax system, the penalties climb for every $5 million increment over the tax threshold (which is currently $70 million).

    Q.
    I heard Knicks officials repeatedly say that they would keep Lin, no matter the cost. Last week Coach Mike Woodson even said Lin would be the starter, ahead of Jason Kidd. What happened?
    A.
    At the time Woodson spoke, Lin had an offer from Houston worth $19.5 million over three years, including a third-year balloon payment of $9.3 million. Once it became clear the Knicks intended to match that offer, Houston bumped the third year to $14.9 million. That extra $5 million would trigger an extra $16.25 million in tax penalties. “So it adds another $21.25 million in consequences,” said Tom Penn, a former assistant general manager for the Portland Trail Blazers, who now works as a cap expert for ESPN. As Penn put it, the poison pill became “a lot more poisonous” with that change.

    http://offthedribble.blogs.nytimes.com/ ... tw-nytimes

  9. #69
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    With all due respect...

    After the first 7 games or so the NBA figured out that he can only drive in one direction...cant shoot that well from the outside ....played lousy defense and when pressed on a drive more likely to throw it away tham dish it to an open teammate.

    It was a fun couple of weeks but Felton at 3/10 is more reliable than Lin at nearly 3 times the price

    Sent from my SGH-T679 using Tapatalk 2

  10. #70
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    Before I get into Lin and the Knicks Id like to say 2 things. 1. This decision shows whats wrong with NYK. Im a Brooklyn Nets fan so maybe it looks like Im flaming but it really seems like they took the day to read the stock of MSG and decide on Lin. By which I mean this was a straight up financial decision in regards to MSGs profits and not a basketball decision. The Knicks do have a nice team but Dolan isnt helping out all when on the other side of the bridge, Prokorhov is laughing at the luxury tax. Dolan has to let basketball people make basketball decisions and just finance them.

    That being said, IMO Its the Knicks fault. They told Lin to go out and get the best offer and they would match it. Thats what he did. He got the best offer he could. They should have come together and agreed on a 3 year pact with a team option for a big 4th season salary. Hes good. I think guys like Stephen A. underrate him. Hes an NBA point guard and at the very least hes a great back up. He can get to the basket, has a good IQ (even though he turns it over a few more times than the greats) and has knocked down shots in big spots. Houston has a pick and roll offense now so Lin will do well there but Howard wont go there and they have the hardest time getting stars to play there for some reason so theyll probably become a treadmill team unless one or two of those rookies are studs.

    I will concede that he isnt the proper point guard for Woodsons system neither was Nash though. Neither provide any true defense and these guys do like to run a bit. Woodson with a full training camp will implement his system. In Atlanta, the system included lots of half court sets with isolation for Joe Johnson. They even called the offense ISO Joe. So get ready for tons of Carmelo isolations which is what Carmelo wants more than anything else.

    This Knick season is all about Amare anyway. He had good chemistry with Felton in 2010 and would ****ing explode to the hoop. This past year he kind of looked overweight and just stiff in general when he had the ball. If you could get him going, youre looking at a team with easy home court advantage in the first round and a possible Atlantic Division title. Thats a big if though...

  11. #71
    A few quick points:

    1. If the Knicks match the Rockets' offer they have an easy way to get out of paying the 3rd year. The Knicks would have until February 2014 to trade Lin for an expiring contract.

    Knicks would have gotten rid of far worse contracts than Lin's. There are plenty of teams who would be willing to take on a good young pg at what would basically be a 1 year deal expiring contract. Lin's salary by trading deadline February 2014 would be around $5 mil - finding a matching expiring contract would be reasonably easy.


    2. Lin is 23 years old and probably going to get better.

    The idea going around that Lin was only good for about 8 games under Mike D'Antoni is rubbish. Anyone who saw Lin play the entire second half of the season knows there is definitely something to him. He needs to gain some weight, he has durability issues, is turnover prone and not a great free throw shooter but he is an excellent penetrator and offensive creator plus he has a knack for making clutch shots.


    3. You can never have too many PG's.


    Knicks already got Felton and Kidd. So what? Felton is good depth and Kidd is really more of a combo guard at this point of his career. Jason Kidd is no longer fast enough to defend most NBA PG's but he can still play D effectively against the 2. If the Knicks did bring back Lin he'd probably get about 26 minutes per night with Felton the rest of the minutes and Kidd would probably be more of a 2 guard role especially on D.


    4. MSG's stock has gone down 8% since it became known Knicks wouldn't match Lin's deal.

    Forget about jersey and merchandising sales. MSG would make a killing on the tv ratings alone for a full season of Linsanity. So would Disney with ABC and ESPN. Lin will still draw big ratings in Houston but it won't be the craziness it was in NY.


    5. What happens if Felton goes down with an injury and/or disappoints?

    The Felton contract definitely makes more economic sense than Lin's deal and I think he will be just fine as the starting pg but if something happens to Felton we are stuck with 40 year old Kidd as the full-time PG next season.



    Look, I can see why the Knicks won't match the deal. But matching the Rockets' offer wouldn't be the end of the world like the media, which for the most part hates the Knicks, makes it out to be.

  12. #72
    i thought the Knicks would match, clearly i was wrong.

    that being said, i'm over it. there's a few things that have happened with Lin in recent months that make his departure easier.

    #1 - he didn't try to come back in the playoffs, despite reports that he was 85%. it's his choice and i completely understand why he wouldn't risk further injury just as he's about to enter free agency. the NBA is a business, like any other professional sport, and athletes have to look out for their best interests. but it also goes against the mentality that i want from a player on my favorite team, very reminiscent of John Abraham in that sense. for all his faults, Amare battled his way back from a severely lacerated hand to play the final two games of the series and even played a huge role in the Game 4 win.


    #2 - he pulled out of the US Select Team because of his free agency status. he would've greatly benefited from the "training camp" experience of the US National Team, learning from some of the best coaches in the business and practicing against the NBA's best. instead, he opted once again to protect his free agent status. again, i get it and i don't blame him, but i don't really like that to be the mentality of Knicks players. it would've also been an opportunity for him to reconnect/bond with Melo and Chandler and it could've influenced his decision to remain in NY.


    #3 - he signed the renegotiated offer sheet from Houston without consulting with the Knicks. again, it's entirely his prerogative as a free agent to get as much money as he can, so i don't blame him one bit for doing it. but he could've handled things differently. just as the Knicks told him they would match the original offer sheet the day it was announced, he could've notified them as to the change in the terms and see if there was something that could be worked out differently. there's a big story in SI today as to how much he loved NY and how he wanted to remain a Knick and i believe that, but his lack of communication on the revised offer hurt all of that. i'm not asking him to turn down such a lucrative offer, but by doing so he painted the Knicks into a corner and eventually that forced his way out of town.


    i have no hard feelings towards Lin and i wish him luck in Houston. i would've preferred to keep him in NY but i understand and even agree with the team's decision to let him go.

    if they matched the offer it would've been constant speculation/media scrutiny as to Lin was living up to the promise of getting paid more than anyone not named Amare or Carmelo. it would've been a constant distraction of Tebow proportions.

    right now the team looks bad and is taking a lot of heat, but ultimately they can benefit from this. there will be increased pressure on EVERYONE from Felton to Kidd, to Melo/Amare, to Woodson to perform at a high level all season long. i think the Knicks can channel this in a positive way and use that "us vs. the world" mentality to get the group to rally around each other and make some noise.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by NPTJET53 View Post
    I am trying to get a better understanding of the issue. Did Lin agree orally to a contract that the knicks could match? and then go back to Houston and tell them to increase the Contract?
    Yes, that's exactly what happened. Knicks had every intention to match the original offer and voiced that to Lin's people. Yes, he had the right to, but no RFA in memory has done that.

    I wanted Lin back mainly as a trade chip to get Chris Paul, and am upset that he's gone. But I do understand the Knicks thinking and I can't kill them for it.

    The Knicks only have a 2 year window (not 3) before they blow up the roster. Felton, in shape, can help them immediately along with Kidd.
    Last edited by SMC; 07-18-2012 at 03:41 PM.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by SMC View Post
    Yes, that's exactly what happened. Knicks had every intention to match the original offer and voiced that to Lin's people. Yes, he had the right to, but no RFA in memory has done that.

    I wanted Lin back mainly as a trade chip to get Chris Paul, and am upset that he's gone. But I do understand the Knicks thinking and I can't kill them for it.

    The Knicks only have a 2 year window (not 3) before they blow up the roster. Felton, in shape, can help them immediately along with Kidd.
    this is a factor that is being completely underplayed or downright ignored by the media, who are hell-bent on ridiculing the Knicks front office/Dolan.

  15. #75
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    We signed veterans such as Raymond Felton, Jason Kidd, Kurt Thomas and Marcus Camby.

    We re-signed key players such as J.R Smith and Steve Novak.

    Now thinking about it? We had an outstanding offseason.

    I wanted Lin as much as the next Knick fan, but when looking at the big picture? I now believe our owner/front office made the right call/decision.

    Jeremy Lin only played a total of 26 games with the Knicks (starting with his breakthrough game). Also, who knows if he could handle the postseason pressure as a starting NBA PG against the likes of the Miami Heat? We'll never know, because he sat out while being 85% healthy. I truthfully believe the Lin was scared to death of Miami. He sat the bench out of pure fear. Fear of getting exposed as a fraud come postseason play, while losing out on millions upon millions (that he just received). He used the Knicks. He was also a turnover machine from time to time. The kid played less than 1/3rd of an NBA season last year after being benched/released by two teams (Rockets and Warriors), but yet, now he's getting an insane contract from the Rockets, worth millions upon millions of dollars? Somewhere I think coach Mike D'Antoni is laughing his ass off; and it's not at the Knicks either.

    And the end of the day? Our owner passing on Lin only means one thing; he want's to win an NBA championship. He could have easily matched the offer, took over the Asian market, made billions upon billions of money due to Jeremy Lin's name, race and popularity. But you know what? At the end of the day, our owner put our franchise ahead of his own pockets. He put the team first, and I'm sorry... But Jeremy Lin is no Carmelo Anthony. He'll never be a Carmelo Anthony type of NBA talent.

    With all that said, as a Knicks fan? I hope to see Jeremy Lin prove our franchise right. I not only hope to see Houston regret his contract for many of years to come, but I also hope to see Jeremy Lin fall flat on his face. I hope he becomes known as the definition of "5 minutes of fame". As an NBA athlete? Yes, he'll have the money for life, but I hope he goes down as one of the biggest bust's of all-time. Can't wait for M.S.G to boo Lin as public enemy number one.
    Last edited by NY2FLDWC85; 07-19-2012 at 04:43 AM.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirtstar View Post
    this is a factor that is being completely underplayed or downright ignored by the media, who are hell-bent on ridiculing the Knicks front office/Dolan.
    Yep. I've been watching the NBA since Magic was a rookie and the RFA rules have been around for 20s. I follow the offseason closely. I can't remember whena a RFA, heck, an UFA, renegotiated an oral agreement made during the signing moratorium. Dirt, can you remember anyone doing that?

    It's unheard of.

    I do believe Dolan would have matched if the original offer sheet had been 3/25 rather than 3/19. But the Rockets not only delayed submitting it (by custom it's supposed to be the same day the moratorium is lifted) but then renegotiate.

    If Lin is being sincere about preferring NY and wanting to spend his career here, he should fire his agent in the coming days because he did him a great disservice.

    And, lastly, if Lin does in fact become a superstar, the Knicks will have the option to sign him back in 3 years because they'll be well under the salary cap by then with all those expiring contracts from the year before.

  17. #77
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    I don't want to bash Lin, I do believe he is talented, but there are serious game/health concerns going forward which warranted not matching.

    As NY2 noted about Lin's high turnover rate. In fact, he led the NBA in turnorvers per 48 minutes last year. Also, I'm surprised the media isn't focusing on the fact at 23 years old his body broke down. He played 35 games, 26 with significant minutes and couldn't physically finish the season. That should be troubling.

    And, I agree, he didn't want to have any part of Miami in the playoffs. I believe his agent told him to sit out so he wouldnt hurt his payday.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by SMC View Post
    Yep. I've been watching the NBA since Magic was a rookie and the RFA rules have been around for 20s. I follow the offseason closely. I can't remember when a a RFA, heck, an UFA, renegotiated an oral agreement made during the signing moratorium. Dirt, can you remember anyone doing that?
    i've been following the NBA for 20 years and the only instance that remotely rings a bell is when Boozer left Cleveland in 2004.

    the Cavs had a team option on him for $700K but he was coming off a double-double season so they let him become a RFA with the assumption that Boozer would re-sign only with them. instead, he went out and tested the market and got a huge offer from Utah that was too rich for the Cavs to match.

    not the same scenario as Lin, obviously, but there are some parallels. if Lin really wanted to stay in NY as badly as he says he did, then he acted incorrectly in signing the revised offer sheet without informing the Knicks. of course, it could all be PR on his part to avoid coming off as greedy, but i think he gambled on the notion that the Knicks would match any offer.

    here's an interesting take from Forbes on what Lin may have cost himself by renegotiating his deal and essentially forcing his way out of NY:

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/randalll...ard-grad-ever/

  19. #79
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    Good job pointing out Boozer, Dirt. The main difference I would see is that he did not agree to an NBA sanctioned oral agreement with the Cavs. It was actually a side agreement with the team, that the NBA has actually cracked down on. The Lin thing was bizarre.

    Why not just agree to it the first instance? I think his agents got greedy and tried to squeeze out more money from Dolan. It backfired and now he stuck in Houston with a nonplayoff team, and HC that doesn't want him (Daily News reported that last week that the Houston coaches wanted the Knicks to match), but with a big payday.

    Great article too. The title is hilarious and true.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirtstar View Post
    i've been following the NBA for 20 years and the only instance that remotely rings a bell is when Boozer left Cleveland in 2004.

    the Cavs had a team option on him for $700K but he was coming off a double-double season so they let him become a RFA with the assumption that Boozer would re-sign only with them. instead, he went out and tested the market and got a huge offer from Utah that was too rich for the Cavs to match.

    not the same scenario as Lin, obviously, but there are some parallels. if Lin really wanted to stay in NY as badly as he says he did, then he acted incorrectly in signing the revised offer sheet without informing the Knicks. of course, it could all be PR on his part to avoid coming off as greedy, but i think he gambled on the notion that the Knicks would match any offer.

    here's an interesting take from Forbes on what Lin may have cost himself by renegotiating his deal and essentially forcing his way out of NY:

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/randalll...ard-grad-ever/
    Good article. Thanks for posting.

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