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Thread: Mark Sanchez made a lot of improvements during his 3rd season last year.

  1. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB1089 View Post
    Haven't you already made this thread before?


    I'm one of the most pro-Sanchez people on here, and everytime I read through your spinning of the numbers, I have to reconsider my position. It's one thing to be a fan, it's another to make no attempt whatsoever to be objective. Picking out a set of games that gives Sanchez a 94.6 passer rating? Really? You think that's an accurate reflection of the player that he is right now?


    I'm pro-Sanchez, but my argument has always been that he's shown enough to give him more time and that he's not primarily responsible for the team's struggles last year or either AFCCG loss. I don't know how good he'll wind up being. I think that it's unlikely that he'll ever be elite (though there's still a remote chance) and I'm almost certain that he'll be better than he has been.

    Anyone that believes Sanchez is a good QB right now has a very broad understanding of what it means to be "good." I have Sanchez somewhere in the 14-19 range. That's average to slightly below-average. If he was 29, I wouldn't be satisfied with that, but he's not, so I want to give him more time instead of starting over with another young QB. But that doesn't seem to be your position.


    Lastly, I'm someone that also likes to use stats to support their arguments. Yet I find your number filled ramblings to be frustrating.

    Sanchez increased his passing yardage in 2011.........so what? He threw the ball more often, his yards per attempt went down. His touchdowns increased, I was very happy about this, and his performance in the red zone improved dramatically.

    There's no way to put a negative spin on that, but you should also be mindful that our red zone playcalling was radically different in 2011 than it was in 2009 and 2010. We ran the ball less and threw more. Sanchez's passing TDs were slightly depressed in his first two years, and slightly inflated in his 3rd year.

    Anyone that has watched the Dolphins for the past few years should know how conservative Sparano is in the red zone. Sanchez could play just as well in the red zone and throw for fewer TDs in 2012 than he did in 2011.

    Lastly, our red zone excellence last year masked how bad the offense really was. Red zone %'s tend to fluctuate significantly from year to year. Even the best offenses in the league have a hard time maintaining the 65% success rate that we had last year, from season to season. If the offense regresses to 54% (where the Giants were last year), combined with the shift in red zone playcalling....that's why you can't just say "Sanchez threw for 26 TDs last year, he should throw for even more this year if he continues to progress."

    It's one thing to look at a box score, it's another to understand the context in which those numbers were produced. Far too often, you're just regurgitating numbers and giving the most pro-Jet interpretation of them that you can come up with.
    Let's see the 13 QBs you have ranked above Sanchez.

    This is where the silliness begins because you have a few or more QBs favorably ranked by some flash-in-the-pan stat like Passer Rating that's lost in a haystack of mediocrity and failure when you look at the overall body of work.

    Let's see your 13 or more better QBs.

  2. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetrider View Post
    Why not just ban the guilty ones - beginning with the immature poster that started direct name-calling and accumulated the most violations?

    1. Jordy (post#: 37, 67, 71, 134)

    2. GuidoYaztremski (post#: 131, 135, 140)
    3. sg3 (post#: 124, 209)
    4. sackdance (post#: 45)
    5. Plumberkhan (post#: 53)
    6. shevys (post#: 63)
    7. Mainejet (post#: 106)
    8. RayRay19 (post#: 207)
    LOL. Calling out 8 posters in one post. That might be a record.

    You win the vajayjay of the month award.

  3. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jordy View Post
    LOL. Calling out 8 posters in one post. That might be a record.

    You win the vajayjay of the month award.
    No.

    YOU DO every month.

  4. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetrider View Post
    No.

    YOU DO every month.
    Good comeback.



    Why don't you start a thread in the Hampur telling everyone how much you hate me. That will go well.

  5. #225
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    First of all, these comparisons between Mark Sanchez and Eli Manning are completely ridiculous. Why Eli Manning has become the main comparison for Mark Sanchez I will never know. Is it because they both play for NY teams? Yeah, that's some sound reasoning for sure.

    My problem with Mark Sanchez is plainly what I see when I watch Jets games. I see a QB who continues to make the same mistakes over and over again. The same QB that will make rookie mistakes in his third season. The constant inability to put the correct touch on the football. He's very inaccurate with his passes. Yet, other times he's very accurate at short distances and all but beans the intended receiver making it impossible for him to catch the ball. See second Pats game and the short dumpoff to Shonn Greene as a prime example. Or better yet see a couple of in routes that Santonio Holmes was running when it is clear had Sanchez hit Holmes in stride they would have easily been touchdowns.

    What about the constant slow starts? The guy consistently took the first 15 to 20 minutes off in every game as a general rule. Then, late in the season, like in the Giants game? Sanchez got off to a fast start and I suddenly had confidence that maybe Sanchez was over the hump. Instead, it worked in reverse order. He got off to a fast start then pretty much did nothing for the rest of the game.

    What this all works out to is INCONSISTENCY. I agree (to my dismay) with Ray Ray and his claim that Sanchez is inconsistent. He is inconsistent and it's the one CONSISTENT thing that you can point to.

    I do not disagree with a lot of the Sanchez apologists who say they see "flashes of brilliance". Anyone willing to give an honest, objective opinion of Mark Sanchez will tell you that. At times, he looks like a great up and coming QB. The problem with those claims is that they are compliments reserved for rookie QB's. We've been talking about flashes of brilliance for 3 years now. When does it all come together?

    Which leads me to the other constant debate on this board. That would be what is the appropriate amount of time for a QB to develop? My take is that there is no canned answer because it's different for each and every QB. Rich Gannon never became a good QB until much later in his career. However, that's really the only example that I can point to. Approximately, 99% of the time the young QB either gets it and shows a lot of improvement into their 3rd season or they are gone.

    3 seasons seems to be the amount of time that most NFL teams have given young QB's. Also, Mark Sanchez did NOT show a lot of improvement in his third season. He showed very little if any at all.

    In the end, I think all of these arguments are completely irrelevant. The Jets are into their 4th season with a huge investment in Sanchez. Their offseason moves and the resigning of Sanchez in particular indicate (to me at least and I would imagine anyone else besides Sanchez apologists) that time is running out for Sanchez. This is a make or break year for Sanchez. He MUST put it all together this season if he's ever going to. Everyone has their breaking point and I believe the Jets CS is reaching theirs.

    Sanchez will have a short leash this season. I truly hope that they do not pull the trigger on a QB switch too early. In other words, do not overreact to one bad performance and strong fan support for Tim Tebow. But if Sanchez strings together say 3 to 5 straight bad performances he will get pulled for good.

    So for all of the arguments that occur on this board day in and day out, this debate will be settled on the field. Just like every other debate is.

    My personal belief is that Sanchez will probably look good, not great early on in the season. He'll be energized by all this criticism he's taken. He'll be in full blown "I'll show you all" mode. Eventually, however, he'll sink into his old habits and he'll get the hook.

    Despite what anyone else would like to contend, I DO wish for Sanchez to turn things around. I just don't believe he's going to.

    Furhtermore, the accusations that I get on this board of being a racist is pure stupidity. Just like when referencing the president I get called a racist. Well, that's the canned answer for all those people who've clearly lost an argument and are unwilling to admit as much.

    Those are the facts as I see them.

  6. #226
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    Congratulations to Jordy and Guido

    I tried my best but couldn't have lost to two more worthy opponents

    what's the prize for third place and the bronze medal?

  7. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mainejet View Post
    Despite what anyone else would like to contend, I DO wish for Sanchez to turn things around. I just don't believe he's going to.

    Those are the facts as I see them.
    Bah!

    The real question is, will you and others learn to judge fairly and not blame Sanchez for things he can't control or will you continue to pin it all on him?

    I don't believe you'll change.

  8. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetrider View Post

    The real question is, will you and others learn to judge fairly and not blame Sanchez for things he can't control or will you continue to pin it all on him?

    Things he can't control?

    He's the friggn' QB of a professional NFL football team.

    The excuses are unbelievable, poor OC, lousy Oline, crappy WR's, medicore RB's, etc., etc., etc.

    Franchise QB's have the ability to overcome adversity.

    Sanchez has yet to demonstrate that even though he is a 3rd year veteran QB.

  9. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by sg3 View Post
    Congratulations to Jordy and Guido

    I tried my best but couldn't have lost to two more worthy opponents

    what's the prize for third place and the bronze medal?
    You win this:




  10. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by PatsFanTX View Post
    Things he can't control?

    He's the friggn' QB of a professional NFL football team.

    The excuses are unbelievable, poor OC, lousy Oline, crappy WR's, medicore RB's, etc., etc., etc.

    Franchise QB's have the ability to overcome adversity.

    Sanchez has yet to demonstrate that even though he is a 3rd year veteran QB.
    Both sides present it as an all-or-nothing scenario and are therefore incorrect. Sanchez antagonists like yourself place the entirety of the fault at Sanchez's feet, ignoring that there is merit to the argument that an inordinate number of obstacles were thrown at Sanchez last season, such as atrocious Oline performance, including anemic running game, a WR with zero ability to separate, another who dropped a bunch of balls, quit on routes more often than any other WR in the NFL and ultimately became a walking-talking malcontent and had a rookie in the slot. Not to mention the perrennial problem of Schott's incomprehensible offensive scheme and a God-awful position coach. Even with that, one can't blame it all on the bad circumstances surrounding Sanchez. Sanchez apologists like Stokes think he has progressed sufficiently for a 3rd yr QB, ignoring some pretty bad flaws in his game, including his limited field vision, innacuracy and erratic decision making leading to too many INTs, things that a 3rd year QB should show way more progress on than Sanchez has.

    4thyear will be the test. Some of these pbstacles remain but now there can be no justifiable excuses for the same horrendoous showing as last year. Most non extreme Jets fans and other OBJECTIVE () observers are taking a wait and see approach.

  11. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by PatsFanTX View Post
    Things he can't control?

    He's the friggn' QB of a professional NFL football team.

    The excuses are unbelievable, poor OC, lousy Oline, crappy WR's, medicore RB's, etc., etc., etc.

    Franchise QB's have the ability to overcome adversity.

    Sanchez has yet to demonstrate that even though he is a 3rd year veteran QB.
    Pretty sure the guy is a bigger troll than even you. He actually claimed that in 09 and 10 that it was the oline which sucked and that Sanchez masked its flaws.

    Sanchez was running for his life in '09, but it got written off as the rookie's lack of experience.

    He looked tv cameras straight in the iris and took the blame for his teammates again and again.

    I expected dramatic OL improvement in '10 but it wasn't the case.

    This fab OL you speak of cost us the AFCC.
    It's like claiming the Pats regular season record the past two seasons was a result of the Pats outstanding D.

  12. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by w0mbat View Post
    Pretty sure the guy is a bigger troll than even you. He actually claimed that in 09 and 10 that it was the oline which sucked and that Sanchez masked its flaws.
    DWC is not a troll, but a blind, homeristic Jets fan who thinks Sanchez has improved over 3 years.

    His 3rd down completion percentage went from 41% his rookie year all the way down to 34% his last year.

    Funny that DWC hasn't responded to these "stats".

  13. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetrider View Post
    Bah!

    The real question is, will you and others learn to judge fairly and not blame Sanchez for things he can't control or will you continue to pin it all on him?

    I don't believe you'll change.
    No, Jetrider, the real question will be WHEN Sanchez get benched how will everyone feel?

    I know I'll be very disappointed that the Jets had just wasted 3 plus seasons trying to get a franchise QB and they will have come away empty handed.

    YOU, on the other hand, will probably continue to argue about frivolous things like "It wasn't Sanchez's fault" or whatever lame attempt you can throw in the way of the clear facts.

    Those facts are that Sanchez was given many weapons at his disposal, always had a top ranked defense keeping him in games and scoring points toward the cause, was given a top notch running attack for him to use as a crutch when things got really tough through the air, unwavering support from his HC, and three plus seasons to figure things out on the field.

    Those are the facts and anyone outside of kool-aid drinking sold out fans like yourself already know that.

  14. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dcat View Post
    Both sides present it as an all-or-nothing scenario and are therefore incorrect. Sanchez antagonists like yourself place the entirety of the fault at Sanchez's feet, ignoring that there is merit to the argument that an inordinate number of obstacles were thrown at Sanchez last season, such as atrocious Oline performance, including anemic running game, a WR with zero ability to separate, another who dropped a bunch of balls, quit on routes more often than any other WR in the NFL and ultimately became a walking-talking malcontent and had a rookie in the slot. Not to mention the perrennial problem of Schott's incomprehensible offensive scheme and a God-awful position coach. Even with that, one can't blame it all on the bad circumstances surrounding Sanchez. Sanchez apologists like Stokes think he has progressed sufficiently for a 3rd yr QB, ignoring some pretty bad flaws in his game, including his limited field vision, innacuracy and erratic decision making leading to too many INTs, things that a 3rd year QB should show way more progress on than Sanchez has.

    4thyear will be the test. Some of these pbstacles remain but now there can be no justifiable excuses for the same horrendoous showing as last year. Most non extreme Jets fans and other OBJECTIVE () observers are taking a wait and see approach.
    I actually agree with you DCat.

  15. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mainejet View Post
    No, Jetrider, the real question will be WHEN Sanchez get benched how will everyone feel?

    I know I'll be very disappointed that the Jets had just wasted 3 plus seasons trying to get a franchise QB and they will have come away empty handed.

    YOU, on the other hand, will probably continue to argue about frivolous things like "It wasn't Sanchez's fault" or whatever lame attempt you can throw in the way of the clear facts.

    Those facts are that Sanchez was given many weapons at his disposal, always had a top ranked defense keeping him in games and scoring points toward the cause, was given a top notch running attack for him to use as a crutch when things got really tough through the air, unwavering support from his HC, and three plus seasons to figure things out on the field.

    Those are the facts and anyone outside of kool-aid drinking sold out fans like yourself already know that.
    4 playoff wins on the road, 2 AFCCG's, young, 5th overall pick, has improved every year, and you think the Jets are wasting their time with Sanchez.

    That FACT is there are too many blowhards on here that love to see themselves post bull**** because they think they know better.

  16. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mainejet View Post
    No, Jetrider, the real question will be WHEN Sanchez get benched how will everyone feel?

    I know I'll be very disappointed that the Jets had just wasted 3 plus seasons trying to get a franchise QB and they will have come away empty handed.

    YOU, on the other hand, will probably continue to argue about frivolous things like "It wasn't Sanchez's fault" or whatever lame attempt you can throw in the way of the clear facts.

    Those facts are that Sanchez was given many weapons at his disposal, always had a top ranked defense keeping him in games and scoring points toward the cause, was given a top notch running attack for him to use as a crutch when things got really tough through the air, unwavering support from his HC, and three plus seasons to figure things out on the field.

    Those are the facts and anyone outside of kool-aid drinking sold out fans like yourself already know that.
    So to be clear, you would only give a young high first round draft pick QB 3 seasons to become "what you think he should be"? You would make an awful GM in the NFL, maybe only Matt Millen would be worse.

  17. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by sec.101row23 View Post
    So to be clear, you would only give a young high first round draft pick QB 3 seasons to become "what you think he should be"? You would make an awful GM in the NFL, maybe only Matt Millen would be worse.
    Yeah, but he'd give an OC about a decade of failure, and keep blaming the QBs that go on to have success elsewhere.

  18. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mainejet View Post
    First of all, these comparisons between Mark Sanchez and Eli Manning are completely ridiculous. Why Eli Manning has become the main comparison for Mark Sanchez I will never know.
    ... eli is a qb in the ny market who went through a similar progression to sanchez in years 1-3 of his career ... he actually is a very valid choice for comparison ...

    ... eli had a huge jump in year 4 and his team won the superbowl that season ... which is what we as jet fans are hoping will happen for us this year ... that is why we are using him as a litmus test ...

    Approximately, 99% of the time the young QB either gets it and shows a lot of improvement into their 3rd season or they are gone.

    3 seasons seems to be the amount of time that most NFL teams have given young QB's.
    ... in a curious (not confrontational tone) did you actually research this? do you have any particular qb's that match the 3 year window? ...

    ... as you said earlier, many of us fans use the eli comparison because it took him 4 seasons ... so this is the easy one for many of us who are still hopeful for him to use ... my belief would be unless the prospect totally $*cks then he'd get more than 3 years ... i could be wrong though, as i've not actually looked into other qb's in depth ...



    time is running out for Sanchez. This is a make or break year for Sanchez. He MUST put it all together this season if he's ever going to.
    ... i agree with you that this is a big year for mark ...

    ... my judgement of putting it all together may be different than yours though ...

    ... what i want to see is a 5-10% improvement in completion % and turnover #'s ...



    l_j_r

  19. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Ray19 View Post
    4 playoff wins on the road, 2 AFCCG's, young, 5th overall pick, has improved every year, and you think the Jets are wasting their time with Sanchez.
    Based on what? Regurgitated cherry-picked stats?

    Jets G.M. Mike Tannenbaum was blunt in an interview with Mike Francesa on WFAN, saying Sanchez’s growth as a quarterback “isn’t where it needs to be” and adding, “No, he didn’t play well.

    I'll go with the GM of the NY Jets on this one and not homers on a message board. A guy who's known to put a positive spin on just about anything didn't do that here. I wonder why?

    I guess Tannenbaum is a SOJF?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Ray19
    That FACT is there are too many blowhards on here that love to see themselves post bull**** because they think they know better.
    Last edited by Jordy; 07-16-2012 at 10:31 AM.

  20. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by lamont_jordan_rules View Post
    ... eli is a qb in the ny market who went through a similar progression to sanchez in years 1-3 of his career ... he actually is a very valid choice for comparison ...

    ... eli had a huge jump in year 4 and his team won the superbowl that season ... which is what we as jet fans are hoping will happen for us this year ... that is why we are using him as a litmus test ...



    ... in a curious (not confrontational tone) did you actually research this? do you have any particular qb's that match the 3 year window? ...

    ... as you said earlier, many of us fans use the eli comparison because it took him 4 seasons ... so this is the easy one for many of us who are still hopeful for him to use ... my belief would be unless the prospect totally $*cks then he'd get more than 3 years ... i could be wrong though, as i've not actually looked into other qb's in depth ...





    ... i agree with you that this is a big year for mark ...

    ... my judgement of putting it all together may be different than yours though ...

    ... what i want to see is a 5-10% improvement in completion % and turnover #'s ...



    l_j_r
    It true that Eli is a reasonable QB to use as a discussion point for comparison sake. But clearly two different QBs can progress along similar paths yet develop into entirely different players. Just because one becomes 'elite' certainly can't be extrapolated to the other.

    That said, it seems rather obvious that given Mark's recent extension, the FO has decided he has through 2013 to prove himself. I can't see them cutting him before then due to the cap implications, so I'm not sure that this is really a 'make or break' year at all. Of course, Tebow is the wild card in all of this. My money is that he has through next season to improve. I'm not sure 5-10% is enough. I think he's got to become at least a top 15 QB to keep his job and have the FO not look elsewhere. He does that, and the Jets have a fighting chance.

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