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Thread: Obamacare - The Storm is Coming

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by detjetsfan View Post
    I already plan on moving to another country with a better healthcare system than the socialist crap America is getting. We had the best and most efficient healthcare system in the world and now the Kenyan has ruined it.
    Which country do you plan on moving to that has a better healthcare system? Germany? France? Finland? maybe Sweden, the Netherlands or Belgium? All have better systems, all have Universal Healthcare.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by kennyo7 View Post
    LOL!
    As a physician I can tell you that the reason that anyone who states that he will not promote tort reform would be booed at a Physicians conference is not because physicians feel tort reform will cut down on the nations health care costs. Its because most physicians are sick and tired of paying these ludicrous malpractice insurance fees. When I was in private practice these fees were incredibly burdensome. Now that I work for the VA its one less thing to worry about.

    Tort reform will not cut down on health care spending. This has been shown in Texas where medical malpractice payouts have been capped and suing hospitals is more difficult than in any other state. After this proposition was passed in 2002, between 2002-2009, health care costs did not drop and the number of medical tests slightly increased. Additionally between 2003-2010 health insurance premiums went up 46% and the average cost of a family plan went up 52%.

    What happened in Texas is not specific to just one state. Same thing was seen in Ohio after they passed tort reform.

    I would strongly encourage anyone who has a sincere interest in this matter to read the study put out by Dartmouth (ill look for link). I know right wing guys like chiefst2000 hate academia and stupid things like research and studies but its an excellent study that shows why tort reform is not an answer to the healthcare crisis we face.

    The biggest problem with people who keep shouting tort reform as a solution is that they assume that fear of lawsuits is the main reason why doctors order unnecessary tests. This is incredibly naive, simplistic and wrong. The factors as to why MDs order all these tests is far more complicated.
    Tort reform has done wonders for Texas and Ohio. The only people that don't get that are tort attorneys and the Democratic politicians that they purchase. Oh and some socialist knuckleheads that post on message boards.

    I don't need to be a physician to understand that a Gynocologist that pays 1 million a year in malpractice insurance would benefit from paying less then that. They would have lower operating costs and therefore could charge less. You can post all the fake studies you want. It doesn't change economics. I am less concerned about testing costs and more concerned about the insurance costs these businesses have to pay.

    Another thing that would drive down the cost of healthcare is a system by which doctors can share tests results with one another. I have observed that doctors in different specialties often order the same tests over and over for the same patients. There should be much more cooperation between PCP's and the specialists that work together when treating an ill patient.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by kennyo7 View Post
    Which country do you plan on moving to that has a better healthcare system? Germany? France? Finland? maybe Sweden, the Netherlands or Belgium? All have better systems, all have Universal Healthcare.
    Depends on how you define "better".

    They certainly have a greater % of Govt. paid for coverage, and higher taxation to cover it. No doubt there.

    But for a specific individual, the claim of "better" treatment is not so solid.

    Depends on the individual. Poor person, yes, much better. Anyone else....perhaps not so much.

    Something overall system stats fail to account for, as such things are lost in the masses of numbers and averages.

    For my Mom, for example, the UK is a lifesaver. No doubt about it.

    For me, no, I get better service and treatement here than I would in the UK. Of that, having been in both systems, I have no doubt.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by chiefst2000 View Post
    Tort reform has done wonders for Texas and Ohio. The only people that don't get that are tort attorneys and the Democratic politicians that they purchase. Oh and some socialist knuckleheads that post on message boards.

    I don't need to be a physician to understand that a Gynocologist that pays 1 million a year in malpractice insurance would benefit from paying less then that. They would have lower operating costs and therefore could charge less. You can post all the fake studies you want. It doesn't change economics. I am less concerned about testing costs and more concerned about the insurance costs these businesses have to pay.
    Can you please define "wonders".
    Failing to lower healthcare costs, increased premiums, and more tests ordered somehow does not seem like tort reform doing wonders for health care.

    As for the bold, i had to be helped off of the floor from my residents after laughing so hard. I then showed them your response and had to help them off the floor from laughing.

    You really live in a fantasy world.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by chiefst2000 View Post

    Another thing that would drive down the cost of healthcare is a system by which doctors can share tests results with one another. I have observed that doctors in different specialties often order the same tests over and over for the same patients. There should be much more cooperation between PCP's and the specialists that work together when treating an ill patient.
    I absolutely agree!
    Ah yes, electronic medical records. Something that certainly has cut down in costs. Also something pioneered by the Federal Government through the VA decades ago. The VA's electronic medical records is still considered the gold standard, head and shoulders above the more costly privately funded EMRs.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post

    For me, no, I get better service and treatement here than I would in the UK. Of that, having been in both systems, I have no doubt.
    Please define better.
    Are the services you get here better in terms of medically superior or better in terms of what you as a layman perceive as better? Some of the services may create the perception you are getting better care but from a medical standpoint make no difference and just adds to the costs.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by kennyo7 View Post
    I absolutely agree!
    Ah yes, electronic medical records. Something that certainly has cut down in costs. Also something pioneered by the Federal Government through the VA decades ago. The VA's electronic medical records is still considered the gold standard, head and shoulders above the more costly privately funded EMRs.
    No privacy concerns, eh?

    You'd trust a G.W. Bush to be in charge of such info about you?

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    No privacy concerns, eh?

    You'd trust a G.W. Bush to be in charge of such info about you?
    Of course there are privacy concerns.
    Why would GWB have access to these records? Is he now pretending to be a physician?
    Ever hear of HIPPA?
    While not perfect, there are checks in place to prevent stealing of medical info by hackers. These systems sometimes do not work perfectly in both the Federal (VA) system and private system (see North Shore/LIJ's problems last year).

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by kennyo7 View Post
    Of course there are privacy concerns.
    Why would GWB have access to these records? Is he now pretending to be a physician?
    Ever hear of HIPPA?
    Ever hear of misuse of power and access, or plain old "oops"?

    I have. It's pretty commonplace.

    While not perfect, there are checks in place to prevent stealing of medical info by hackers.
    Better than the ones the for-profit companies use, and keep getting beat by those Hackers on?

    I'm not against it per se, I can certainly see the benefits involved, I just think the dichotomy and hypocricy of the VERY selective party-based trust in the state is a funny and enlightening thing.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by kennyo7 View Post
    Can you please define "wonders".
    Failing to lower healthcare costs, increased premiums, and more tests ordered somehow does not seem like tort reform doing wonders for health care.

    As for the bold, i had to be helped off of the floor from my residents after laughing so hard. I then showed them your response and had to help them off the floor from laughing.

    You really live in a fantasy world.
    Huh? There has been no significant medical tort reform from which to pull data. The Tort Reforms put in place in Texas were loser pay laws designed to protect small businesses from frivolous law suits filed simply to blackmail companies. I was sued recently in a frivolous lawsuit in my business. The plaintiff had no case but tried to extort us anyway. We spent $7500 in legal fees getting the case thrown out. I would like to sue to recover my expenses now but the cost of filing a counter-suit is prohibitive. These reforms have worked wonders for the State of Texas. Businesses are flocking there.

    The fact that you laugh when you hear that if Doctors expenses were lower they could afford to charge less tells me you are not in private practice and clearly don't understand the principles of economics. Not surprising considering your extreme left wing political opinions. Therefore you clearly lack the understanding of what drives the costs for medical businesses. I'll trust the opinion of the Doctor I play poker with every week that runs the Oncology wing at the local hospital and owns cancer centers all around the world.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by kennyo7 View Post
    Please define better.
    Are the services you get here better in terms of medically superior or better in terms of what you as a layman perceive as better? Some of the services may create the perception you are getting better care but from a medical standpoint make no difference and just adds to the costs.
    I will be seen faster. By better Doctors with better education and more and wider experience and a faster, more convenient, less limited access to specialists. With better equipment at their disposal. With more availabillity of lab tests, faster. Medications. Advanced Tests (CT Scans, MRI's and more). And better end results.

    I have direct personal experince in my U.S. Insurance including professional experience (administration), and a comparison vs. my Mother and family with similar conditions in the U.K. system. Of course, I speak only of my and my loved one/friends experiences in the the two systems (which is about equal, half here, half UK).

    My comparison of the factors above rates the private U.S. System vastly better in all aspects of service and treatment. I rank the UK system vastly better if you are poor, and otherwise couldn't aquire the kind of insurance I have here.

    Tell me Ken, what is your personal experience in private U.S. healthcare, such as one of the larger HMO's or in private practice as your primary income stream? How many years have you worked for/in such a business or in p.p.? What is your private sector healthcare resume, without specific comapny names of course, in brief? Just curious what actual experience you have to speak from in regards to private sector healthcare adminsitration and treatment.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by kennyo7 View Post
    Tort reform may cost nothing but it will also do nothing for health care costs. This has already proven. Why do you like to repeat this solution which has already been shown to be ineffective?

    Likewisecompetition across state lines will result in insurances with watered down regulations and of poor quality.

    These are not solutions. They are tired old talking points from the right.
    Hard to know what it will or won't do for health care costs. What we do know is physicians and hospitals are paying huge premiums which are a fixed cost of doing business and must be recouped in fees for service.

    The tort system is supposed to protect the patient from bad care because penalties for bad care will have an impact on quality. Effectively that risk is spread to good doctors and bad through insurance and passed on to the consumer in fees. The other problem with the current tort system it doesn't give equal treatment for patients who have been equally injured by the system. It doesn't seem like it protects us from bad doctors if the risk is spread to good doctors through premiums and it doesn't protect patients if the outcome in court isn't equal for similiar damages.

    No doubt that Hospitals and doctors will continue to do un-necessary procedures as long as Insurance companies and the Government reimburse for those procedures and the high cost of testing that has little to do with diagnosis and treatment will continue to drain resources and make both doctors and hospitals income.

    Tort reform is necessary particularly if we are going to go to statistical based screening to lower costs in the future. The fact that it isn’t lowering costs now is because insurance and government payments are locked in and the system will bill to the maximum of reimbursement even if their actual cost goes down. If payment is set by the Government why would the system lower their fee if their cost went down?
    Last edited by Winstonbiggs; 07-16-2012 at 04:16 PM.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winstonbiggs View Post
    Hard to know what it will or won't do for health care costs.
    Texas enacted tort reform.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by PlumberKhan View Post
    Texas enacted tort reform.
    Their reforms were targeted at small businesses. It is quite specific. We haven't seen any reforms in the Medical Tort system.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by PlumberKhan View Post
    Texas enacted tort reform.
    So what you obviously didn't read my post. The Federal government sets rates nationally. They aren't lowering their payments if the cost goes down in Texas.

  16. #76

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by kennyo7 View Post
    Which country do you plan on moving to that has a better healthcare system? Germany? France? Finland? maybe Sweden, the Netherlands or Belgium? All have better systems, all have Universal Healthcare.
    Do they cover illegal immigrants, welfare recipients and many others who give nothing to society but just take. How many of them are trillions of dollars in debt?

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