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Thread: Who Gets Credit for YOUR Success?

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefst2000 View Post
    It appeals to their vanity to tell they they somehow deserve a piece of what their employer makes.
    So, you're saying someone who works for a business shouldn't get paid? Because your paycheck is a "piece" of whatever business you work for.

    Companies that appreciate their workforce fare better than companies that don't. Staff selection is one of the most critical parts of running a business. If I ran a plumbing company, I wouldn't get up every AM and announce to them all that they failed in life an I, ALMIGHTY I, was successful and owed them nothing because they are mere peons who should be happy that I let them wash my balls.

    You people really are bent.

    Of course a dedicated employee who puts their all into their job deserves a "piece". And any successful employer would readily admit that....

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    So, my success is not because of me.
    His point was fairly simple. A successful individual was put in a position to succeed due to the framework and architecture of the American system and the help of individual contributions from the collective.

    There is no mention of attaching weights to the significance of each factor of success.

    I don't think you'll find many objective and reasonable people who disagree with the main point. In my opinion, your interpretation takes things to an obvious extreme.

    Going back to a football analogy (noted: you've already shot down the premise), Aaron Rodgers attains a tremendous amount of individual success by setting passing records and winning Superbowls. Nobody including Obama denies this individual success which came from hard work, talent, and drive. However, this success is not attainable without an NFL football field, NFL rules, officials to enforce these rules, fellow players, current and former coaches, and consumers to watch and fund the sport.

    This is the real world. We rely on each other to provide an environment where individual success is a possibility. In no way does this statement diminish the value of each individual's actions toward success. If we lived in an "everyone for themselves free for all," modern societies would break down, and the world would be a complete mess.

  3. #63
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    At best you have to admit it was a poor choice of words that could be turned into a bad sound byte but I see none of that here from the regular libs...

    He'll get hammered for quite a bit... Deservedly so...

    Someone should think about it next time they write his speech, since the words aren't even his anyway...

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by PlumberKhan View Post
    So, you're saying someone who works for a business shouldn't get paid? Because your paycheck is a "piece" of whatever business you work for.

    Companies that appreciate their workforce fare better than companies that don't. Staff selection is one of the most critical parts of running a business. If I ran a plumbing company, I wouldn't get up every AM and announce to them all that they failed in life an I, ALMIGHTY I, was successful and owed them nothing because they are mere peons who should be happy that I let them wash my balls.

    You people really are bent.

    Of course a dedicated employee who puts their all into their job deserves a "piece". And any successful employer would readily admit that....
    Yes of course that is what I'm saying. People that work should not get paid.


    Do you want a lesson in the beauty of free markets? Here is how it works. Lets say you were a very talented plumber. Your boss has 5 plumbers working for him. Of the 5, 2 are great employees. They show up on time. Call in when they are sick. Represent the company well on site work. The other 3 slots are a sort of revolving door. One guy came in drunk a few times. Another guy stole some brass from the back warehouse to sell at the local metal yard, etc. The employer will value the good employees more and pay them more to retain their services. He needs good people to keep his business running. If you are good enough you may tell him that you are thinking of going off on your own and starting your own business. Your employer may offer you a partnership to keep you on board. If not you might start up your own business and make lots of money. No hard feelings to the former employer. He helped train you and give you your start.

    People get paid well when they have the skills and work ethic that employers desire. That is not far from how I became a partner in my "day job" business. I started my own division and it ended up making as much as the other divisions combined. After a few years I told them that I want to be a partner in the whole thing or I was thinking of going out on my own. Their decision was easy. I had the leverage to make that demand. That is how efficient economies thrive. Read up on the Pavlovian Response. Good behavior gets rewarded. When we reward bad behavior everyone loses.
    Last edited by chiefst2000; 07-16-2012 at 05:18 PM.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    Shocking that two liberals would think such a thing. Almost as shocking as a Republican getting angry over taxes.

    Thats the real problem, both sides are so deep inside their own rhetoric and idealism, they cannot see outside of it. It's like (R) and (D) are both stuck in seperate Black Holes, from which nothign can escape, but sure as hell, the viewpoints already held can simply circulate inside round and round, self-reinforcing, forevermore.

    Right, mischarictarization to say Obama wasn't promoting the ideal of social collectivism and higher taxes to pay for it, and telling the individual their hard work and talent are not the primary factors in their potential success, but the collective social contract was.

    Got it. Hope and Change 2012, got that too, from both of you.
    ^If that's the real problem, help me with a meaningful thread title.

    Kind of a skinny premise; as we all must march out as adults and produce our share; the butcher, baker and candlestick maker serve themselves and others; though usually in reverse order, right?

    "The Peace of the Land" is not exclusive to any one group; everybody benefits from peace in the land. Ergo, I benefit from the infrastructure that exists on the legwork of others, blah blah blah.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlwaysGreenAlwaysWhite View Post
    At best you have to admit it was a poor choice of words that could be turned into a bad sound byte but I see none of that here from the regular libs...

    He'll get hammered for quite a bit... Deservedly so...

    Someone should think about it next time they write his speech, since the words aren't even his anyway...
    You say "poor choice of words" but, I can't agree that it was a "mis-characterization of Obama's message". I haven't seen anyone discuss the context of those words; just jumping on the surface meaning.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by WestCoastOffensive View Post
    ^If that's the real problem, help me with a meaningful thread title.

    Kind of a skinny premise; as we all must march out as adults and produce our share; the butcher, baker and candlestick maker serve themselves and others; though usually in reverse order, right?

    "The Peace of the Land" is not exclusive to any one group; everybody benefits from peace in the land. Ergo, I benefit from the infrastructure that exists on the legwork of others, blah blah blah.
    If government did not exist, roads would still be built. Just ask Oprah. She just built a paved roadway in Maui that she won't let others use that could alleviate traffic woes there.

    Because there is a "social contract" that provides for infrastructure doesn't mean all have to pay for lib pipe dreams bolted onto 'em for eternity neither.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by WestCoastOffensive View Post
    ^If that's the real problem, help me with a meaningful thread title.
    I'm open to suggestions, but I think the basic premise stands. Is the success of the individual due to the actions of the individual, or due to the support fo the collective society in the form of Government and public infrastructure.

    Kind of a skinny premise; as we all must march out as adults and produce our share; the butcher, baker and candlestick maker serve themselves and others; though usually in reverse order, right?
    Are you being serious?

    No, you do not need to produce a share to live in America today. Our social support makles living off the aid possible for a lengthy period of time.

    "The Peace of the Land" is not exclusive to any one group; everybody benefits from peace in the land. Ergo, I benefit from the infrastructure that exists on the legwork of others, blah blah blah.
    I don't disagree.

    Where I would disagree is that my success (or any individuals success) is due more to that State-managed infrastrcture than it is due to their own labor, talents, skills and efforts.

    I also take issue with the idea that the wealthy somehow get more for less from that infrastructure, when clearly it is the successful who pay the vast majority of dollars into our system, with a rather large chuck not paying much if anything in. If anything, the successful allow us to have all this infrastructure that benefits the poor and middle far in excess of their contribution towards it.

    As for context, it was specificly in the context of the issue of rasiing taxes on those making over $250,000 or, as some call them, the lucky successful who benefitted on teh backs of the rest of us.

  9. #69
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    2 people get should get credit for all our success...Carrot Top and Snooki

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefst2000 View Post
    Yes of course that is what I'm saying. People that work should not get paid.


    Do you want a lesson in the beauty of free markets? Here is how it works. Lets say you were a very talented plumber. Your boss has 5 plumbers working for him. Of the 5, 2 are great employees. They show up on time. Call in when they are sick. Represent the company well on site work. The other 3 slots are a sort of revolving door. One guy came in drunk a few times. Another guy stole some brass from the back warehouse to sell at the local metal yard, etc. The employer will value the good employees more and pay them more to retain their services. He needs good people to keep his business running. If you are good enough you may tell him that you are thinking of going off on your own and starting your own business. Your employer may offer you a partnership to keep you on board. If not you might start up your own business and make lots of money. No hard feelings to the former employer. He helped train you and give you your start.

    People get paid well when they have the skills and work ethic that employers desire. That is not far from how I became a partner in my "day job" business. I started my own division and it ended up making as much as the other divisions combined. After a few years I told them that I want to be a partner in the whole thing or I was thinking of going out on my own. Their decision was easy. I had the leverage to make that demand. That is how efficient economies thrive. Read up on the Pavlovian Response. Good behavior gets rewarded. When we reward bad behavior everyone loses.
    What if you've got a plumber on staff who's a "functioning alcoholic" and is not averse to dropping acid on the weekend yet does a good to great job most of the time, and occasionally swipes a tool or some leftover material for "home use"?

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jungle Shift Jet View Post
    If government did not exist, roads would still be built. (1)Just ask Oprah. She just built a paved roadway in Maui that she won't let others use that could alleviate traffic woes there.

    (2)Because there is a "social contract" that provides for infrastructure doesn't mean all have to pay for lib pipe dreams bolted onto 'em for eternity neither.
    I'm a lib, not an OprObama fan. DO NOT paint me with that brush, mon ami. That is really cold; how could you do that?


    (2) Duly noted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    I'm open to suggestions, but I think the basic premise stands. Is the success of the individual due to the actions of the individual, or due to the support fo the collective society in the form of Government and public infrastructure.
    I honestly thought you were going to open the "Mentorship" door.

    No, you do not need to produce a share to live in America today. Our social support makes living off the aid possible for a lengthy period of time.
    That net is to keep people out of jail, and the morgue.

    You had better produce your share.



    Where I would disagree is that my success (or any individuals success) is due more to that State-managed infrastrcture than it is due to their own labor, talents, skills and efforts.
    I agree with you here.

    I also take issue with the idea that the wealthy somehow get more for less from that infrastructure, when clearly it is the successful who pay the vast majority of dollars into our system, with a rather large chunk not paying much if anything in. If anything, the successful allow us to have all this infrastructure that benefits the poor and middle far in excess of their contribution towards it.
    Again, easy to agree here.

    As for context, it was specificly in the context of the issue of rasiing taxes on those making over $250,000 or, as some call them, the lucky successful who benefitted on teh backs of the rest of us.
    lmao

    Thank you.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jungle Shift Jet View Post
    What if you've got a plumber on staff who's a "functioning alcoholic" and is not averse to dropping acid on the weekend yet does a good to great job most of the time, and occasionally swipes a tool or some leftover material for "home use"?
    Your comprehension is off the charts; it's like you know the guy.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by WestCoastOffensive View Post
    You say "poor choice of words" but, I can't agree that it was a "mis-characterization of Obama's message". I haven't seen anyone discuss the context of those words; just jumping on the surface meaning.
    You mean to tell me for how intelligent you are, you can't discern why there's an attack from 'R' four months before the election because the President's speech writer gave them the opportunity?

    Blame the speech writer... This is attack style politics... Which is essentially the entire base of Obama's campaign right now, so forgive me if I don't feel for him that he was taken out of context...

    And we all remember this remark that 'R' and 'D' alike pounced on from Romney... Which was also taken out of context...

    "Fire People..."

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlwaysGreenAlwaysWhite View Post
    You mean to tell me for how intelligent you are, you can't discern why there's an attack from 'R' four months before the election because the President's speech writer gave them the opportunity?

    Blame the speech writer... This is attack style politics... Which is essentially the entire base of Obama's campaign right now, so forgive me if I don't feel for him that he was taken out of context...

    And we all remember this remark that 'R' and 'D' alike pounced on from Romney... Which was also taken out of context...

    "Fire People..."
    That's the most maddening thing; context is used as a weapon now.

    I was sucked into the "larger" argumentative context of "who I give credit to"...I lost sight of the fact that it's pretty much attack politics; Night of the Zombie Sound Bites...oy. thanks for the reply.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jungle Shift Jet View Post
    What if you've got a plumber on staff who's a "functioning alcoholic" and is not averse to dropping acid on the weekend yet does a good to great job most of the time, and occasionally swipes a tool or some leftover material for "home use"?
    Yet you have consumed more drugs than all of us on this forum combined. And all it's left you with is sad bitterness, a lonely life and a penchant for using archaic references.

    Your life under fluorescent lighting has mad you a madman.

    You need help.


    Sent from my Double-Wide using Semaphore...

  16. #76
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    Obama is showing is true colors and it is RED. The nan who never worked has been a vampire living off the blood of working Americans yes that includes the rich.

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by PlumberKhan View Post
    Yet you have consumed more drugs than all of us on this forum combined. And all it's left you with is sad bitterness, a lonely life and a penchant for using archaic references.

    Your life under fluorescent lighting has mad you a madman.

    You need help.


    Sent from my Double-Wide using Semaphore...
    Not true. Your intake of drugs on a typical Friday happy hour puts shooting galleries to shame. Afghanistan called and wants to know where you get your sh*t from.

    Besides, I saw your mancave in the other thread:


  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jungle Shift Jet View Post
    What if you've got a plumber on staff who's a "functioning alcoholic" and is not averse to dropping acid on the weekend yet does a good to great job most of the time, and occasionally swipes a tool or some leftover material for "home use"?
    Does he spend most of the working day screwing around on internet message boards?

  19. #79
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    Well at least there is some symmetry with the libs. When something goes wrong, it is everyone else's fault so it is only fair that when things go right it is everyone else's credit.

  20. #80
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    The only thing liberals are good at is spending our tax money and Obama is doing that by leaps and bounds. He is driving the USA off a cliff and Obanaites either are to stupid or they have their head up their arse.

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