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Thread: Who Gets Credit for YOUR Success?

  1. #1

    Who Gets Credit for YOUR Success?

    I heard a portion of the Presidents Speech on Friday this morning (radio is hammering it, both left and right), specificly a section concerning success.

    Sadly, I do not have nor cannot find a transcript of it or youtube link as yet. So don't ask, I don't have it, it was on the radio.

    The comment, in summary, was that the successful do not become successful on their own, and it is not because of their hard work or talents that they become (or do not become) successful. He went on to remind us that the successful are only able to achieve that success because of things he says others paid for for them, teachers, roads, and other examples of public infrastrcture.

    It was a rather brilliant insight into the mindset of the President in my view, and his intrinsic belief in collectivism and disdain for the individual.

    It also echoes a speech given by a Mass. (D) (a woman, whose name now eludes me), who also railed on the same topic, success, and how the successful only get their on the backs of us all and on the backs of the public services they, the successful, don't pay for.

    So on the topic of success, what do you think is behind achieving success in America? Do the successful owe their success to "us all", as the President and other (D) claim? Is hard work and effort, and skill, talent and the like over-rated in achieving success? Is public services and governemnt under-rated by us all in it's role in providing success?

    What say you on this?

  2. #2
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    Video at link below.

    President Barack Obama addressed supporters in Roanoke, Virginia on Friday afternoon and took a shot at the business community. President Obama dismissed any credit business owners give themselves for their success:
    There are a lot of wealthy, successful Americans who agree with me -- because they want to give something back. They know they didnít -- look, if youíve been successful, you didnít get there on your own. You didnít get there on your own. Iím always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart. There are a lot of smart people out there. It must be because I worked harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something -- there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there. (Applause.)

    If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If youíve got a business -- you didnít build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didnít get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.

    The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together. There are some things, just like fighting fires, we donít do on our own. I mean, imagine if everybody had their own fire service. That would be a hard way to organize fighting fires.
    http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/...ss-you-didnt-/

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    I heard a portion of the Presidents Speech on Friday this morning (radio is hammering it, both left and right), specificly a section concerning success.

    Sadly, I do not have nor cannot find a transcript of it or youtube link as yet. So don't ask, I don't have it, it was on the radio.

    The comment, in summary, was that the successful do not become successful on their own, and it is not because of their hard work or talents that they become (or do not become) successful. He went on to remind us that the successful are only able to achieve that success because of things he says others paid for for them, teachers, roads, and other examples of public infrastrcture.

    It was a rather brilliant insight into the mindset of the President in my view, and his intrinsic belief in collectivism and disdain for the individual.

    It also echoes a speech given by a Mass. (D) (a woman, whose name now eludes me), who also railed on the same topic, success, and how the successful only get their on the backs of us all and on the backs of the public services they, the successful, don't pay for.

    So on the topic of success, what do you think is behind achieving success in America? Do the successful owe their success to "us all", as the President and other (D) claim? Is hard work and effort, and skill, talent and the like over-rated in achieving success? Is public services and governemnt under-rated by us all in it's role in providing success?

    What say you on this?
    I will admit that he is right in some respects. As the saying goes, "Its not what you know its who you know" but I think that only carries you half way.

    You need to have the drive to do well enough in school to learn what you need to make it in your chosen field.

    We are all given the opportunity in this country to do to school for 13 years yet many fail to make the most of this opportunity.

    Many others are so risk-adverse that they prefer to work for someone else that to build a business. It takes money, time, energy and ingenuity to make a successful business. Some of that is built on the effort of others but what the Entitlement President doesn't understand is that all of us have the opportunity to take the foundations that this country offers and build a future. Most don't.

    If it was as easy as he says then should everyone in this country be successful?

  4. #4
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    ...when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together.


    That's preposterous!

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Trades View Post
    I will admit that he is right in some respects.
    I do not agree.

    Not only am I a believer in the individual making his or her own success via ll tools available, I also find fault with his theory that the successful do not contribute in vastly greater ways to the collective assets of roads and the like than the non-successful do.

    If anything, the non-successful should be whats discussed, and why they are different that the successful. Not only do they have access to all the same public services as the successful thanks to our existing level fo collectivism, they also get the benefit of our existing redistribution and welfare systems to support them, and they pay nothing or almost nothing net towards the systems we are all utilizing.

    In my view, it's backwards logic. The successful are that way because they possess either a work ethic or talent/skill AND utilize them to their fulelst, utilzie the public services to their fullest, and make the most out of the opportunity available. In turn, in our "progressive" unequal system of taxation, these successful then pay a vast amount fo money into the system to continue it's upkeep, enough so that a small percentage of these successes are paying for the vast majority of us who do not pay much at all, and often are in fact net recipeients, not ney payers, in our system.

    In my view, it is this kind of collectivist/marxist idealism that makes the (D) party a total non-starter for me. They would take credit for any and all success I may achieve, and stick me with their imposed guilt for having achieved it, and the bill for paying for many others who have no achieved it, all the while telling me I only got what I got at the expense of others, not via my own labor and talent.

    I reject that worldview. It is the antithisis of what I stand for as a "Libertarian" or Individualist. I believe in some collectivism, to be sure, but not as laid out by the President.

    But for those of a low or even middle economic class, who I'm sure see themselves not as they are, but as they wish to be (i.e. an amazing hard worker who just got shafted by "the man" keeping him down), this message will appeal, same as it appealed to so many in Russia circa 1917. It's amazing the parallels between that time and place and th ehere and now. The book I'm reading at current ont he Russian Revolution is incredably insightful about the ideals being bandied about today here.
    Last edited by Warfish; 07-16-2012 at 11:49 AM.

  6. #6
    Here are Obama's thoughts on Businesses and Job Creators:

    "ÖLook, if youíve been successful, you didnít get there on your own. You didnít get there on your own. Iím always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart. There are a lot of smart people out there. It must be because I worked harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something Ė there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there.Ē

    ďIf youíve got a business Ė you didnít build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didnít get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.
    Ē


    This is from the same mindset that believes that if one person is making money or acquiring wealth that happens at the expense of another. The Progressive mind believes that there is a finite pool of income. When one person makes more another makes less by default. This faulty and illogical belief leads to the harmful policies that they push.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    I do not agree.
    If Mark Sanchez has a good work ethic but the Jets put a bunch of cloned Wayne Hunters in front of him and he gets sacked every 3 plays...does that make Sanchez a failure?

    If Mark Sanchez has a good work ethic but the Jets put Jim Otto, Gene Upshaw, Art Shell, George Buehler, Bob Brown in their prime in front of him and he gets sacked only 10 times all season...does that make Sanchez a success ONLY do to his play or does some of the accolades also go to the O-line?

  8. #8
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...v=hOyDR2b71ag#!

    Here is another darling of the progressive movement with a similar diatribe. They use this rhetoric to justify their redistributionalist principals.

    For those that don't understand the difference between today's progressive Democrat party and the GOP this is a good example. There is a fundamental difference in economic philosophy. The Progressive Democrats believe that it is ok to take more and more from risk takers and job creators in the name of "fairness". The GOP believes in an opportunity based society in which risk takers are rightfully rewarded and serve as an example to the next group of risk takers.

    The question for voters is whether they would prefer a stagnant country with little opportunity for advancement but a large social safety net in which most things are provided for by government. That is what socialism essentially is. Or do we espouse to be a society in which everyone regardless of class or race has the opportunity to rise to the top through entrepreneurship and risk taking. It is a fair question that the voters will have to decide. Many countries in the world have chosen the former. Greece and Spain are good examples alongside France and many other European Countries. I prefer an opportunity based society personally but that may be because I'm an entrepreneur and I don't believe the economics of an entitlement society work in the long term. I can understand why union types and some segments of society might disagree and prefer a country which is entitlement based. Those folks generally don't understand the harm that comes from that type of social system both economically and through the loss of freedom that comes with a society that is beholden to government for basic needs.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by PlumberKhan View Post
    If Mark Sanchez has a good work ethic but the Jets put a bunch of cloned Wayne Hunters in front of him and he gets sacked every 3 plays...does that make Sanchez a failure?

    If Mark Sanchez has a good work ethic but the Jets put Jim Otto, Gene Upshaw, Art Shell, George Buehler, Bob Brown in their prime in front of him and he gets sacked only 10 times all season...does that make Sanchez a success ONLY do to his play or does some of the accolades also go to the O-line?
    Real life isn't a football team of 11 men. Thats a VERY poor analogy of real life and the workign world tbqh.

    For example, in your analogy, I'm a Communist, because I believe in revenue sharing and a salary cap in the NFL.

    Hardly representative of my positions, or reality, outside the NFL.

    But by all means PK, tell us how all of your OWN personal success is owed to others, and how your own failings and shortcomings are really the fault of others. Don't use fantasy football, tell us your own story of success or failure, and how you, the individual, had no real power over it, it was all your teahcers, the roads, and others who decided if you would succeed or fail, and how your own talents and effort played no part.

    Thats a story I'd enjoy reading.

    P.S. If I hear another republican refer to the wealthy, as a whole, as "job creators" I'm going to puke. BUSINESS is job creators, if business is good, and they pay business taxes. A wealthy individual is not a ****ing job creator in any meaningful form, and using that dishonety to defend against taxes, rather than using a legitimate argument, onlys erves to make the eventual (D) victory on rising tax rates easier.
    Last edited by Warfish; 07-16-2012 at 12:12 PM.

  10. #10
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    There are a lot of wealthy, successful Americans who agree with me -- because they want to give something back. They know they didn’t -- look, if you’ve been successful, you didn’t get there on your own. You didn’t get there on your own. I’m always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart. There are a lot of smart people out there. It must be because I worked harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something -- there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there. (Applause.)

    If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn’t get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.

    The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together. There are some things, just like fighting fires, we don’t do on our own. I mean, imagine if everybody had their own fire service. That would be a hard way to organize fighting fires.

    Smart people figured this out w/o seeking group opinion/consensus 4 years ago, but B. Hussein is definitely speaking from his own experience, since he was guided, pushed, aided every step of the way in his life by benefactors and sponsors of some kind, taking advantage of every EO handout available. The only initiative he's ever taken is to commandeer bongs on the choom bus.

    O where to begin to debunk the idiocy? Anyone "wealthy" who wants to "give back" can do so independently at any time by paying more tax, via charity, personal involvement etc. When you are smart and not part of an equal opportunity quota you are not given a job based on your looks your connections quota slot filling credentials or altruistically, you are given a job on what your perceived potential to do it is. That's measured by test scores college grades and suchlike. Generally, you keep that job if you meet or exceed job requirements and a track record is the basis to be evaluated for other opportunities.

    Roads and bridges? They were built with bonds, tolls and taxpayer funds derived from the private sector.

    The Internet? Originally built for closed communities on taxpayer $ via ARPA. Conceived at MIT, a private concern.

    Fighting fires? We're not all firemen. Those of us who pay taxes for public sector service receive that service via an unnatural monopoly. Furthermore, 0 has not renewed private sector contracts that aid in fire fighting like Aero Union. (you look it up, lazybones)

    Again, the evidence was there 4 yrs ago the MinC was a dishonest charlatan and this claptrap reinforces it. While insulting your intelligence with this conflated nonsense, he's trusting those of you who stupidly voted for him or enabled him will keep doing so.

    If this line alone - "If you’ve got a business — you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen.” doesn't clue you in to the warped mindset of this destructive fool you're beyond cluelessness. Stay stupid, my "friends".
    Last edited by Jungle Shift Jet; 07-16-2012 at 12:30 PM.

  11. #11
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    He's such a panderer to the OWS crowd. He's unrepentant. In some ways, I'm impressed, like I was when Bush started the Iraq war to make Cheney's cronies even richer.

    Love the non-logic though. Yeah, no shiit,

    Cliche as it may be, luck = opportunity + preparation. The smartest among us are just agile enough to make it work. Yeah, it's all thanks to the brilliant federal government. This president is just such a lazy, useless slug.

    I really loved the local news over the weekend. Obama was in VA campaining, and one woman in the crowd said "I give Obama so much credit for speaking in the rain". Really? Can he walk and chew gum at the same time? That's where the bar is?

    Guy never had an honest job in his life but he's non-plussed when giving a speech in the rain in July?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    I heard a portion of the Presidents Speech on Friday this morning (radio is hammering it, both left and right), specificly a section concerning success.

    Sadly, I do not have nor cannot find a transcript of it or youtube link as yet. So don't ask, I don't have it, it was on the radio.

    The comment, in summary, was that the successful do not become successful on their own, and it is not because of their hard work or talents that they become (or do not become) successful. He went on to remind us that the successful are only able to achieve that success because of things he says others paid for for them, teachers, roads, and other examples of public infrastrcture.

    It was a rather brilliant insight into the mindset of the President in my view, and his intrinsic belief in collectivism and disdain for the individual.

    It also echoes a speech given by a Mass. (D) (a woman, whose name now eludes me), who also railed on the same topic, success, and how the successful only get their on the backs of us all and on the backs of the public services they, the successful, don't pay for.

    So on the topic of success, what do you think is behind achieving success in America? Do the successful owe their success to "us all", as the President and other (D) claim? Is hard work and effort, and skill, talent and the like over-rated in achieving success? Is public services and governemnt under-rated by us all in it's role in providing success?

    What say you on this?
    First, this spelling mistake **** has to stop: its like a virus, and in the last week, I have spelled specifically the way you "spelled" it above. Luckily, I corrected it before publication in a company email.

    I will answer your question with a question. If you get get successful using public services that I also have access to, and I am not successful, what's up with that? (I'm excluding cronyism for now.)

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    P.S. If I hear another republican refer to the wealthy, as a whole, as "job creators" I'm going to puke. BUSINESS is job creators, if business is good, and they pay business taxes. A wealthy individual is not a ****ing job creator in any meaningful form, and using that dishonety to defend against taxes, rather than using a legitimate argument, onlys erves to make the eventual (D) victory on rising tax rates easier.
    You never heard of venture capital or IPOs funding jobs, right?

    Sounds like you also never heard how keeping $ on the sidelines due to adverse business conditions such as the 0 reign of error also keeps jobs from being created. How sad.

    You will not hear this message via the left wing radio crap you spend too much time listening to. Try changing the channel.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    But by all means PK, tell us how all of your OWN personal success is owed to others...
    Okey dokey.

    Well...I learned a lot from my dad. I'm very mechanically inclined thanks to him having the patience to suffer through my endless barrage of "How?" and "Why?" questions when I was a kid...and all he wanted to do was fix the car. He could have easily told me to go in the house and leave him alone...but he took the time to show me.

    I owe my best friend Dan A LOT. He gave me a place to live when I was sleeping in my Camaro for a month, let me crash in his finished basement for 2 months even though he barely knew me. He gave me a job and taught me everything I know about plumbing. He's fronted me money for trucks and gave me $$$ when I started my electrical business. I always repaid him, but my life would be a WHOLE lot different were it not for his kindness.

    Need anymore? I still have quite a few people in my life that I am very thankful to have had helped me over the years.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Jungle Shift Jet View Post
    You never heard of venture capital or IPOs funding jobs, right?
    In both cases, it's the business being invested in that creates jobs, not the investment itself.

    Semantics, perhaps, but I don't think so.

    Sounds like you also never heard how keeping $ on the sidelines due to adverse business conditions such as the 0 reign of error also keeps jobs from being created. How sad.
    Money was being held back long due to adverse business conditions before Obama was elected. It has, of course, continued under Obama.

    You will not hear this message via the left wing radio crap you spend too much time listening to. Try changing the channel.
    Try minding your own business. I'll do, and listen to, what I please, inlcuding both left and right leaning radio.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by PlumberKhan View Post
    Okey dokey.

    Well...I learned a lot from my dad. I'm very mechanically inclined thanks to him having the patience to suffer through my endless barrage of "How?" and "Why?" questions when I was a kid...and all he wanted to do was fix the car. He could have easily told me to go in the house and leave him alone...but he took the time to show me.

    I owe my best friend Dan A LOT. He gave me a place to live when I was sleeping in my Camaro for a month, let me crash in his finished basement for 2 months even though he barely knew me. He gave me a job and taught me everything I know about plumbing. He's fronted me money for trucks and gave me $$$ when I started my electrical business. I always repaid him, but my life would be a WHOLE lot different were it not for his kindness.

    Need anymore? I still have quite a few people in my life that I am very thankful to have had helped me over the years.
    Is your Dad or friend Dan a duly employed member of the Govt. Help PK via Redistribution Squad?

    Or are they also individuals, acting as free individuals, supporting their progeny and/or friend by their own choice?

    Sorry, your examples here strongly support MY view. Not Obama's. Govt. didn't help you, two free individuals used that freedom to give of their volition to a loved one. Thats as libertarian is it gets.

    They were not forced by the Govt. to give the help/money they gave you to the State instead, to help others (as decided by the State) they neither know nor care for, leaving YOU without that money, job, or skills they provided you.

    Thanks P.K., I do so love it when you accidentally support my side in an argument.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by quantum View Post
    First, this spelling mistake **** has to stop
    Yu can specificly fcuk yurslfe.


  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    Is your Dad or friend Dan a duly employed member of the Govt. Help PK via Redistribution Squad?

    Or are they also individuals, acting as free individuals, supporting their progeny and/or friend by their own choice?

    Sorry, your examples here strongly support MY view. Not Obama's. Govt. didn't help you, two free individuals used that freedom to give of their volition to a loved one. Thats as libertarian is it gets.

    They were not forced by the Govt. to give the help/money they gave you to the State instead, to help others (as decided by the State) they neither know nor care for, leaving YOU without that money, job, or skills they provided you.

    Thanks P.K., I do so love it when you accidentally support my side in an argument.
    You asked me to tell you how my successes were owed to others. Which I did.

    I really hope you are never asked to do a toast or anything. That would be the worst speech ever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trades View Post
    He's a communist.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    In both cases, it's the business being invested in that creates jobs, not the investment itself.

    Semantics, perhaps, but I don't think so.



    Money was being held back long due to adverse business conditions before Obama was elected. It has, of course, continued under Obama.



    Try minding your own business. I'll do, and listen to, what I please, inlcuding both left and right leaning radio.
    Oh please. No right to privacy is expected from your previously stated public admissions of "belief". You broadcast, un prompted, 24x7, on a soapbox how you're this and that, listen to this and that, and believe this and that for all to hear.

    I must say that your lack of knowledge re: business and job creation is astounding...I am surprised. Fertile soil for Farmer 0 to till with his fertilizer. You should audit some business courses. Or crack open a browser and see how businesses originate, by who, on what basis, under what limits. I know this as a scion of a SMB entrepreneur and as a 2 business school grad. I'd love to hear your explanation of how jobs are created.

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