Page 24 of 41 FirstFirst ... 14222324252634 ... LastLast
Results 461 to 480 of 820

Thread: Revisiting Gun Laws in the U.S.

  1. #461
    Quote Originally Posted by Winstonbiggs View Post
    There is no constitutional right to an assualt weapon, semi-automatice or automatic weapons or the right to large clips and bullets intended to do particular types of damage. There is no specific right to own any specific type of weapon. We certainly can regulate weapons and prevent those who are unfit to use them having them if we choose to.
    Ah, I see, the constitution does not spell out exact parameters regarding our right to bear arms, so we can fill in the details as we please. Let's apply that to the freedom of speech.

    There is no constitutional right to free speech on Tuesdays, Thursdays, or Sundays or the right to speech over 17 words, or words intended to inflict particular types of meanings. There is no specific right to speak about politics, education, or pool management. We certainly can regulate speech, and prevent those who are unfit to speak from speaking if we choose to.

    Before you counter with the limitations we have on speech, stop and realize that those restrictions are based around using peach to commit a crime, or (in the case of perjury, etc) prevent punishment of a crime. A law against yelling fire in a crowded theater is akin to a law against waving a rifle around in a crowded theater, and yes i both ought to be illegal.

  2. #462
    This article is really good stuff. The woman recounts Hitlers rise to power in Austria and the subsequent move to totalitarianism. It is particularly relevant to this conversation. We have leftists here and around the country particularly in the media that are now working towards more gun control and removal of rights. There are so many great points in this article on that topic as well as the easy and gradual shift from Socialism to totalitarianism. For those that ridicule people that think this type of thing could happen anywhere in the world including the US it is particularly important for them to understand how this has happened in the past.

    She survived Hitler and wants to warn America

    originally posted by Rob Kerby, Senior Editor | 10:49am Wednesday April 13, 2011

    re-posted by Donna Calvin on Watchwoman on the Wall | Thursday September 15, 2011



    Kitty Werthmann

    Kitty Werthmann survived Hitler.

    “What I am about to tell you is something you’ve probably never heard or read in history books,” she likes to tell audiences.

    “I am a witness to history.

    “I cannot tell you that Hitler took Austria by tanks and guns; it would distort history.

    Adolph Hitler ▬>

    “We voted him in.”

    If you remember the plot of the Sound of Music, the Von Trapp family escaped over the Alps rather than submit to the Nazis. Kitty wasn’t so lucky. Her family chose to stay in her native Austria. She was 10 years old, but bright and aware. And she was watching.

    “We elected him by a landslide – 98 percent of the vote,” she recalls.

    She wasn’t old enough to vote in 1938 – approaching her 11th birthday. But she remembers.

    “Everyone thinks that Hitler just rolled in with his tanks and took Austria by force.”

    No so.
    <▬ Hitler is welcomed to Austria

    “In 1938, Austria was in deep Depression. Nearly one-third of our workforce was unemployed. We had 25 percent inflation and 25 percent bank loan interest rates.

    Farmers and business people were declaring bankruptcy daily. Young people were going from house to house begging for food. Not that they didn’t want to work; there simply weren’t any jobs.

    “My mother was a Christian woman and believed in helping people in need. Every day we cooked a big kettle of soup and baked bread to feed those poor, hungry people – about 30 daily.’

    “We looked to our neighbor on the north, Germany, where Hitler had been in power since 1933.” she recalls. “We had been told that they didn’t have unemployment or crime, and they had a high standard of living.
    Austrian girls welcome Hitler ▬>

    “Nothing was ever said about persecution of any group – Jewish or otherwise. We were led to believe that everyone in Germany was happy. We wanted the same way of life in Austria. We were promised that a vote for Hitler would mean the end of unemployment and help for the family. Hitler also said that businesses would be assisted, and farmers would get their farms back.

    “Ninety-eight percent of the population voted to annex Austria to Germany and have Hitler for our ruler.

    “We were overjoyed,” remembers Kitty, “and for three days we danced in the streets and had candlelight parades. The new government opened up big field kitchens and everyone was fed.
    <▬ Austrians saluting

    “After the election, German officials were appointed, and like a miracle, we suddenly had law and order. Three or four weeks later, everyone was employed. The government made sure that a lot of work was created through the Public Work Service.

    “Hitler decided we should have equal rights for women. Before this, it was a custom that married Austrian women did not work outside the home. An able-bodied husband would be looked down on if he couldn’t support his family. Many women in the teaching profession were elated that they could retain the jobs they previously had been required to give up for marriage.

    “Then we lost religious education for kids
    Poster promoting “Hitler Youth” ▬>

    “Our education was nationalized. I attended a very good public school.. The population was predominantly Catholic, so we had religion in our schools. The day we elected Hitler (March 13, 1938), I walked into my schoolroom to find the crucifix replaced by Hitler’s picture hanging next to a Nazi flag. Our teacher, a very devout woman, stood up and told the class we wouldn’t pray or have religion anymore. Instead, we sang ‘Deutschland, Deutschland, Uber Alles,’ and had physical education.

    “Sunday became National Youth Day with compulsory attendance. Parents were not pleased about the sudden change in curriculum. They were told that if they did not send us, they would receive a stiff letter of warning the first time. The second time they would be fined the equivalent of $300, and the third time they would be subject to jail.”

    And then things got worse.

    “The first two hours consisted of political indoctrination. The rest of the day we had sports. As time went along, we loved it. Oh, we had so much fun and got our sports equipment free.

    “We would go home and gleefully tell our parents about the wonderful time we had.

    “My mother was very unhappy,” remembers Kitty. “When the next term started, she took me out of public school and put me in a convent. I told her she couldn’t do that and she told me that someday when I grew up, I would be grateful. There was a very good curriculum, but hardly any fun – no sports, and no political indoctrination.

    “I hated it at first but felt I could tolerate it. Every once in a while, on holidays, I went home. I would go back to my old friends and ask what was going on and what they were doing.
    <▬ A pro-Hitler rally

    “Their loose lifestyle was very alarming to me. They lived without religion. By that time, unwed mothers were glorified for having a baby for Hitler.

    “It seemed strange to me that our society changed so suddenly. As time went along, I realized what a great deed my mother did so that I wasn’t exposed to that kind of humanistic philosophy.

    “Then food rationing began

    “In 1939, the war started and a food bank was established. All food was rationed and could only be purchased using food stamps. At the same time, a full-employment law was passed which meant if you didn’t work, you didn’t get a ration card, and if you didn’t have a card, you starved to death.

    “Women who stayed home to raise their families didn’t have any marketable skills and often had to take jobs more suited for men.

    “Soon after this, the draft was implemented.
    Young Austrians ▬>

    “It was compulsory for young people, male and female, to give one year to the labor corps,” remembers Kitty. “During the day, the girls worked on the farms, and at night they returned to their barracks for military training just like the boys.

    “They were trained to be anti-aircraft gunners and participated in the signal corps. After the labor corps, they were not discharged but were used in the front lines.

    “When I go back to Austria to visit my family and friends, most of these women are emotional cripples because they just were not equipped to handle the horrors of combat.

    “Three months before I turned 18, I was severely injured in an air raid attack. I nearly had a leg amputated, so I was spared having to go into the labor corps and into military service.

    “When the mothers had to go out into the work force, the government immediately established child care centers.

    “You could take your children ages four weeks old to school age and leave them there around-the-clock, seven days a week, under the total care of the government.

    “The state raised a whole generation of children. There were no motherly women to take care of the children, just people highly trained in child psychology. By this time, no one talked about equal rights. We knew we had been had.

    “Before Hitler, we had very good medical care. Many American doctors trained at the University of Vienna..

    “After Hitler, health care was socialized, free for everyone. Doctors were salaried by the government. The problem was, since it was free, the people were going to the doctors for everything.

    “When the good doctor arrived at his office at 8 a.m., 40 people were already waiting and, at the same time, the hospitals were full.

    “If you needed elective surgery, you had to wait a year or two for your turn. There was no money for research as it was poured into socialized medicine. Research at the medical schools literally stopped, so the best doctors left Austria and emigrated to other countries.

    “As for healthcare, our tax rates went up to 80 percent of our income. Newlyweds immediately received a $1,000 loan from the government to establish a household. We had big programs for families.

    “All day care and education were free. High schools were taken over by the government and college tuition was subsidized. Everyone was entitled to free handouts, such as food stamps, clothing, and housing.

    “We had another agency designed to monitor business. My brother-in-law owned a restaurant that had square tables.

    “ Government officials told him he had to replace them with round tables because people might bump themselves on the corners. Then they said he had to have additional bathroom facilities. It was just a small dairy business with a snack bar. He couldn’t meet all the demands.

    “Soon, he went out of business. If the government owned the large businesses and not many small ones existed, it could be in control.

    “We had consumer protection, too
    Austrian kids loyal to Hitler ▬>

    “We were told how to shop and what to buy. Free enterprise was essentially abolished. We had a planning agency specially designed for farmers. The agents would go to the farms, count the live-stock, and then tell the farmers what to produce, and how to produce it.

    “In 1944, I was a student teacher in a small village in the Alps. The villagers were surrounded by mountain passes which, in the winter, were closed off with snow, causing people to be isolated.

    “So people intermarried and offspring were sometimes retarded. When I arrived, I was told there were 15 mentally retarded adults, but they were all useful and did good manual work.

    “I knew one, named Vincent, very well. He was a janitor of the school. One day I looked out the window and saw Vincent and others getting into a van.

    “I asked my superior where they were going. She said to an institution where the State Health Department would teach them a trade, and to read and write. The families were required to sign papers with a little clause that they could not visit for 6 months.

    “They were told visits would interfere with the program and might cause homesickness.

    “As time passed, letters started to dribble back saying these people died a natural, merciful death. The villagers were not fooled. We suspected what was happening. Those people left in excellent physical health and all died within 6 months. We called this euthanasia.

    “Then they took our guns

    “Next came gun registration. People were getting injured by guns. Hitler said that the real way to catch criminals (we still had a few) was by matching serial numbers on guns. Most citizens were law abiding and dutifully marched to the police station to register their firearms. Not long afterwards, the police said that it was best for everyone to turn in their guns. The authorities already knew who had them, so it was futile not to comply voluntarily.
    <▬ Kitty Werthmann

    “No more freedom of speech. Anyone who said something against the government was taken away. We knew many people who were arrested, not only Jews, but also priests and ministers who spoke up.

    “Totalitarianism didn’t come quickly, it took 5 years from 1938 until 1943, to realize full dictatorship in Austria. Had it happened overnight, my countrymen would have fought to the last breath. Instead, we had creeping gradualism. Now, our only weapons were broom handles. The whole idea sounds almost unbelievable that the state, little by little eroded our freedom.”

    “This is my eye-witness account.

    “It’s true. Those of us who sailed past the Statue of Liberty came to a country of unbelievable freedom and opportunity.

    “America is truly is the greatest country in the world.

    “Don’t let freedom slip away.

    “After America, there is no place to go.”

    Read more: http://blog.beliefnet.com/on_the_fro...#ixzz1Y3gC5IRr

    Read more: http://blog.beliefnet.com/watchwoman...#ixzz2GB8zIhrj

  3. #463
    All Pro
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Portland Oregon
    Posts
    5,039
    The Oregonian wanted to post a similar article as the one below, but our county Sheriffs would not give out the info. Then by ballot initative the people voted not to allow this info to the papers.

    Of course in OR there are no registered guns so the papers were just wanting to publish the names and address of concealed weapons permit holders.

    Anyone here have there name on this list?

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------





    Map: Where are the gun permits in your neighborhood?

    The map indicates the addresses of all pistol permit holders in Westchester and Rockland counties. Each dot represents an individual permit holder licensed to own a handgun — a pistol or revolver. The data does not include owners of long guns — rifles or shotguns — which can be purchased without a permit. Being included in this map does not mean the individual at a specific location owns a weapon, just that they are licensed to do so.

    Data for all permit categories, unrestricted carry, premises, business, employment, target and hunting, is included, but permit information is not available on an individual basis.

    To create the map, The Journal News submitted Freedom of Information requests for the names and addresses of all pistol permit holders in Westchester, Rockland and Putnam. By state law, the information is public record.

    To view the interactive map click, http://www.lohud.com/interactive/art...hood-?gcheck=1

  4. #464
    Quote Originally Posted by Axil View Post
    Ah, I see, the constitution does not spell out exact parameters regarding our right to bear arms, so we can fill in the details as we please. Let's apply that to the freedom of speech.
    Seems like a really poor analogy. The freedom of speech is preceded by the words Congress shall make no law. The second amendment doesn't prevent Congress or the States from making laws to regulate. It just says they can't infringe on your rights without spelling out what those rights entail.

    The second amendment doesn't spell out any parameters of what arms are but hey those guys clearly were talking about what a soldier employed by the US armed forces, could carry into battle on foreign soil in 2012 as an example of what they meant? Speech is pretty clear but the right to bear arms isn't so clear.

    It's not exactly as we please they created something called Congress and the President has the right to veto and the SC rules on the Constitutionality of those laws. Even Scali in his recent opinion clearly states the right to regulate arms. Before Lincoln it's highly doubtful that the Constitution even applied to State legislation.
    Last edited by Winstonbiggs; 12-26-2012 at 01:29 PM.

  5. #465
    Jets Insider VIP
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    18,612
    Quote Originally Posted by chiefst2000 View Post
    This article is really good stuff. The woman recounts Hitlers rise to power in Austria and the subsequent move to totalitarianism. It is particularly relevant to this conversation. We have leftists here and around the country particularly in the media that are now working towards more gun control and removal of rights. There are so many great points in this article on that topic as well as the easy and gradual shift from Socialism to totalitarianism. For those that ridicule people that think this type of thing could happen anywhere in the world including the US it is particularly important for them to understand how this has happened in the past.

    She survived Hitler and wants to warn America

    originally posted by Rob Kerby, Senior Editor | 10:49am Wednesday April 13, 2011

    re-posted by Donna Calvin on Watchwoman on the Wall | Thursday September 15, 2011



    Kitty Werthmann

    Kitty Werthmann survived Hitler.

    “What I am about to tell you is something you’ve probably never heard or read in history books,” she likes to tell audiences.

    “I am a witness to history.

    “I cannot tell you that Hitler took Austria by tanks and guns; it would distort history.

    Adolph Hitler ▬>

    “We voted him in.”

    If you remember the plot of the Sound of Music, the Von Trapp family escaped over the Alps rather than submit to the Nazis. Kitty wasn’t so lucky. Her family chose to stay in her native Austria. She was 10 years old, but bright and aware. And she was watching.

    “We elected him by a landslide – 98 percent of the vote,” she recalls.

    She wasn’t old enough to vote in 1938 – approaching her 11th birthday. But she remembers.

    “Everyone thinks that Hitler just rolled in with his tanks and took Austria by force.”

    No so.
    <▬ Hitler is welcomed to Austria

    “In 1938, Austria was in deep Depression. Nearly one-third of our workforce was unemployed. We had 25 percent inflation and 25 percent bank loan interest rates.

    Farmers and business people were declaring bankruptcy daily. Young people were going from house to house begging for food. Not that they didn’t want to work; there simply weren’t any jobs.

    “My mother was a Christian woman and believed in helping people in need. Every day we cooked a big kettle of soup and baked bread to feed those poor, hungry people – about 30 daily.’

    “We looked to our neighbor on the north, Germany, where Hitler had been in power since 1933.” she recalls. “We had been told that they didn’t have unemployment or crime, and they had a high standard of living.
    Austrian girls welcome Hitler ▬>

    “Nothing was ever said about persecution of any group – Jewish or otherwise. We were led to believe that everyone in Germany was happy. We wanted the same way of life in Austria. We were promised that a vote for Hitler would mean the end of unemployment and help for the family. Hitler also said that businesses would be assisted, and farmers would get their farms back.

    “Ninety-eight percent of the population voted to annex Austria to Germany and have Hitler for our ruler.

    “We were overjoyed,” remembers Kitty, “and for three days we danced in the streets and had candlelight parades. The new government opened up big field kitchens and everyone was fed.
    <▬ Austrians saluting

    “After the election, German officials were appointed, and like a miracle, we suddenly had law and order. Three or four weeks later, everyone was employed. The government made sure that a lot of work was created through the Public Work Service.

    “Hitler decided we should have equal rights for women. Before this, it was a custom that married Austrian women did not work outside the home. An able-bodied husband would be looked down on if he couldn’t support his family. Many women in the teaching profession were elated that they could retain the jobs they previously had been required to give up for marriage.

    “Then we lost religious education for kids
    Poster promoting “Hitler Youth” ▬>

    “Our education was nationalized. I attended a very good public school.. The population was predominantly Catholic, so we had religion in our schools. The day we elected Hitler (March 13, 1938), I walked into my schoolroom to find the crucifix replaced by Hitler’s picture hanging next to a Nazi flag. Our teacher, a very devout woman, stood up and told the class we wouldn’t pray or have religion anymore. Instead, we sang ‘Deutschland, Deutschland, Uber Alles,’ and had physical education.

    “Sunday became National Youth Day with compulsory attendance. Parents were not pleased about the sudden change in curriculum. They were told that if they did not send us, they would receive a stiff letter of warning the first time. The second time they would be fined the equivalent of $300, and the third time they would be subject to jail.”

    And then things got worse.

    “The first two hours consisted of political indoctrination. The rest of the day we had sports. As time went along, we loved it. Oh, we had so much fun and got our sports equipment free.

    “We would go home and gleefully tell our parents about the wonderful time we had.

    “My mother was very unhappy,” remembers Kitty. “When the next term started, she took me out of public school and put me in a convent. I told her she couldn’t do that and she told me that someday when I grew up, I would be grateful. There was a very good curriculum, but hardly any fun – no sports, and no political indoctrination.

    “I hated it at first but felt I could tolerate it. Every once in a while, on holidays, I went home. I would go back to my old friends and ask what was going on and what they were doing.
    <▬ A pro-Hitler rally

    “Their loose lifestyle was very alarming to me. They lived without religion. By that time, unwed mothers were glorified for having a baby for Hitler.

    “It seemed strange to me that our society changed so suddenly. As time went along, I realized what a great deed my mother did so that I wasn’t exposed to that kind of humanistic philosophy.

    “Then food rationing began

    “In 1939, the war started and a food bank was established. All food was rationed and could only be purchased using food stamps. At the same time, a full-employment law was passed which meant if you didn’t work, you didn’t get a ration card, and if you didn’t have a card, you starved to death.

    “Women who stayed home to raise their families didn’t have any marketable skills and often had to take jobs more suited for men.

    “Soon after this, the draft was implemented.
    Young Austrians ▬>

    “It was compulsory for young people, male and female, to give one year to the labor corps,” remembers Kitty. “During the day, the girls worked on the farms, and at night they returned to their barracks for military training just like the boys.

    “They were trained to be anti-aircraft gunners and participated in the signal corps. After the labor corps, they were not discharged but were used in the front lines.

    “When I go back to Austria to visit my family and friends, most of these women are emotional cripples because they just were not equipped to handle the horrors of combat.

    “Three months before I turned 18, I was severely injured in an air raid attack. I nearly had a leg amputated, so I was spared having to go into the labor corps and into military service.

    “When the mothers had to go out into the work force, the government immediately established child care centers.

    “You could take your children ages four weeks old to school age and leave them there around-the-clock, seven days a week, under the total care of the government.

    “The state raised a whole generation of children. There were no motherly women to take care of the children, just people highly trained in child psychology. By this time, no one talked about equal rights. We knew we had been had.

    “Before Hitler, we had very good medical care. Many American doctors trained at the University of Vienna..

    “After Hitler, health care was socialized, free for everyone. Doctors were salaried by the government. The problem was, since it was free, the people were going to the doctors for everything.

    “When the good doctor arrived at his office at 8 a.m., 40 people were already waiting and, at the same time, the hospitals were full.

    “If you needed elective surgery, you had to wait a year or two for your turn. There was no money for research as it was poured into socialized medicine. Research at the medical schools literally stopped, so the best doctors left Austria and emigrated to other countries.

    “As for healthcare, our tax rates went up to 80 percent of our income. Newlyweds immediately received a $1,000 loan from the government to establish a household. We had big programs for families.

    “All day care and education were free. High schools were taken over by the government and college tuition was subsidized. Everyone was entitled to free handouts, such as food stamps, clothing, and housing.

    “We had another agency designed to monitor business. My brother-in-law owned a restaurant that had square tables.

    “ Government officials told him he had to replace them with round tables because people might bump themselves on the corners. Then they said he had to have additional bathroom facilities. It was just a small dairy business with a snack bar. He couldn’t meet all the demands.

    “Soon, he went out of business. If the government owned the large businesses and not many small ones existed, it could be in control.

    “We had consumer protection, too
    Austrian kids loyal to Hitler ▬>

    “We were told how to shop and what to buy. Free enterprise was essentially abolished. We had a planning agency specially designed for farmers. The agents would go to the farms, count the live-stock, and then tell the farmers what to produce, and how to produce it.

    “In 1944, I was a student teacher in a small village in the Alps. The villagers were surrounded by mountain passes which, in the winter, were closed off with snow, causing people to be isolated.

    “So people intermarried and offspring were sometimes retarded. When I arrived, I was told there were 15 mentally retarded adults, but they were all useful and did good manual work.

    “I knew one, named Vincent, very well. He was a janitor of the school. One day I looked out the window and saw Vincent and others getting into a van.

    “I asked my superior where they were going. She said to an institution where the State Health Department would teach them a trade, and to read and write. The families were required to sign papers with a little clause that they could not visit for 6 months.

    “They were told visits would interfere with the program and might cause homesickness.

    “As time passed, letters started to dribble back saying these people died a natural, merciful death. The villagers were not fooled. We suspected what was happening. Those people left in excellent physical health and all died within 6 months. We called this euthanasia.

    “Then they took our guns

    “Next came gun registration. People were getting injured by guns. Hitler said that the real way to catch criminals (we still had a few) was by matching serial numbers on guns. Most citizens were law abiding and dutifully marched to the police station to register their firearms. Not long afterwards, the police said that it was best for everyone to turn in their guns. The authorities already knew who had them, so it was futile not to comply voluntarily.
    <▬ Kitty Werthmann

    “No more freedom of speech. Anyone who said something against the government was taken away. We knew many people who were arrested, not only Jews, but also priests and ministers who spoke up.

    “Totalitarianism didn’t come quickly, it took 5 years from 1938 until 1943, to realize full dictatorship in Austria. Had it happened overnight, my countrymen would have fought to the last breath. Instead, we had creeping gradualism. Now, our only weapons were broom handles. The whole idea sounds almost unbelievable that the state, little by little eroded our freedom.”

    “This is my eye-witness account.

    “It’s true. Those of us who sailed past the Statue of Liberty came to a country of unbelievable freedom and opportunity.

    “America is truly is the greatest country in the world.

    “Don’t let freedom slip away.

    “After America, there is no place to go.”

    Read more: http://blog.beliefnet.com/on_the_fro...#ixzz1Y3gC5IRr

    Read more: http://blog.beliefnet.com/watchwoman...#ixzz2GB8zIhrj
    This may be the most compelling thing I have read all year.

  6. #466
    The Nazi's didn't use armed rebellion to take Germany and there was little to no risistence to the Nazi's. The idea that a willing country armed would have revolted is nonesense. The German people and the Austrian people willingly supported the Nazi's and their power grab.

    I would be far more worried about the Patriot act and the continued mercenary army that the US is employing over reasonable gun regulation. A manadatory draft of all women and children would do more to keep us free then the paranoid armed citizenery afraid of their own neighbors.
    Last edited by Winstonbiggs; 12-26-2012 at 02:04 PM.

  7. #467
    All League
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Wildcat Country
    Posts
    4,972
    “Hitler decided we should have equal rights for women. Before this, it was a custom that married Austrian women did not work outside the home. An able-bodied husband would be looked down on if he couldn’t support his family. Many women in the teaching profession were elated that they could retain the jobs they previously had been required to give up for marriage.

    Quote Originally Posted by southparkcpa View Post
    This may be the most compelling thing I have read all year.
    I'm convinced. Back to the kitchens, wenches.

  8. #468
    Quote Originally Posted by Winstonbiggs View Post
    Seems like a really poor analogy. The freedom of speech is preceded by the words Congress shall make no law. The second amendment doesn't prevent Congress or the States from making laws to regulate. It just says they can't infringe on your rights without spelling out what those rights entail.
    Surely your grasping at straws. If anything "Shall not be infringed" is stronger than "Congress shall make no law" as it precludes executive order, or any other governmental authority that could infringe upon the right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Winstonbiggs View Post
    The second amendment doesn't spell out any parameters of what arms are but hey those guys clearly were talking about what a soldier employed by the US armed forces, could carry into battle on foreign soil in 2012 as an example of what they meant? Speech is pretty clear but the right to bear arms isn't so clear.
    I realize you dismissed my comparison out of hand, but again i'd ask you to explain how "arms" isn't all inclusive, but "speech" is. If the first ammendment read "The rights pursuant to an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances, shall not be infringed" You really believe it would then be ok to regulate what kinds of speech are protected, perhaps not all religions are protected either, do you really think "those guys"were envisioning Buddhism, Islam, or Scientology when they enacted the first amendment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Winstonbiggs View Post
    It's not exactly as we please they created something called Congress and the President has the right to veto and the SC rules on the Constitutionality of those laws.
    And can either operate within the confines of the constitution or change it. Pretending parts you dislike don't exist, or "interpreting" them in a way that is inconsistent with the understanding of the document as a whole, is not sound governance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Winstonbiggs View Post
    Even Scali in his recent opinion clearly states the right to regulate arms.
    irrelevant.
    Quote Originally Posted by Winstonbiggs View Post
    Before Lincoln it's highly doubtful that the Constitution even applied to State legislation.
    Also irrelevant.

  9. #469
    Axil;4743699]Surely your grasping at straws. If anything "Shall not be infringed" is stronger than "Congress shall make no law" as it precludes executive order, or any other governmental authority that could infringe upon the right.


    Congress is prohibited in regards to making laws prohibiting speech they aren't in regards to guns or ammo. You simply have a right to bear arms. Congress can regulate guns and ammo as can the States.

    That's not a straw man that's a fact and gun law regulation has been backed up by the SC throughout the history of this country.
    Last edited by Winstonbiggs; 12-26-2012 at 02:28 PM.

  10. #470
    Jets Insider VIP
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Van down by the river
    Posts
    22,999
    Quote Originally Posted by DeanPatsFan View Post
    She bought guns for protection...
    Worked out well for her.

  11. #471
    Quote Originally Posted by southparkcpa View Post
    This may be the most compelling thing I have read all year.
    I felt the same. I always talk about the importance of learning from and understanding history. The article is a first hand account of how a free and democratic society can be transformed into a dictatorship in a few short years. Here in this thread we have posters essentially ridiculing the idea that an armed citizenry is a necessary ingredient for a free society. We had multiple posts ridiculing those that suggested that citizens with guns could resist a totalitarian regime. I also thought that it was important for people to understand that in the past it was very often left wing movements that paved the way for totalitarianism. This happened under the Nazi's as well as the Communists of the USSR and China.

  12. #472
    Quote Originally Posted by PlumberKhan View Post
    Worked out well for her.
    Not really, but it has for a lot of other people..

  13. #473
    Jets Insider VIP
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Van down by the river
    Posts
    22,999
    Quote Originally Posted by DeanPatsFan View Post
    Not really, but it has for a lot of other people..
    Not having one has worked out well for others as well.


    Sent from a phone using an app

  14. #474
    Quote Originally Posted by chiefst2000 View Post
    I felt the same. I always talk about the importance of learning from and understanding history. The article is a first hand account of how a free and democratic society can be transformed into a dictatorship in a few short years. Here in this thread we have posters essentially ridiculing the idea that an armed citizenry is a necessary ingredient for a free society. We had multiple posts ridiculing those that suggested that citizens with guns could resist a totalitarian regime. I also thought that it was important for people to understand that in the past it was very often left wing movements that paved the way for totalitarianism. This happened under the Nazi's as well as the Communists of the USSR and China.
    Nazi's and facist were right wing nationalist anti-communists. The pure State wasn't a socialism of liberalism or communism it was about Nationalism, purity and unification.
    Last edited by Winstonbiggs; 12-26-2012 at 07:16 PM.

  15. #475
    All League
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Wildcat Country
    Posts
    4,972
    My mom was a few years older than Kitty Werthmann. Unlike Kitty, my mom was in a country that was actually invaded and occuppied by the Germans/Austrians. She had neighbors who were gunned down in the streets and shipped off to die in camps. And I can assure you she would rip this Kitty Werthman. a new ******* for daring to claim she "survived Hitler." Survived? Are you kidding me? Well, she does start right off by admitting that her people and family joyously, overwhelingly voted Hilter into power. Had Kitty been a few years older, she would have voted for him too. To claim she and her people/family, knew nothing about the camps, the persecution? What ***ing balls. The Austrians, likely including a lot of people in Kitty's family, were up to their eyeteeth in murder. The Austrians "survived" Hitler the same way Jefferson Davis "survived" slavery.

    Here's a list of prominent Austrian Nazis (whick, oh by the way, includes Hilter):

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Austrian_Nazis


    Here's a nice little summary of anti-semeticism in Austria (hint: Hitler didn't invent it):

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...ews_in_Austria

    The Mauthausen-Gusen concentration camp in Austria was in operation long before the war even started.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauthau...entration_camp



    Anyone who takes her as a victim, or even more astoundingly, somehow sees in her statements a convincing argument for unrestricted weapons ownership in the US...man, I don't know what to do for you. There are lots of good arguments for gun ownership. This isn't one of them.
    Last edited by BushyTheBeaver; 12-26-2012 at 08:25 PM.

  16. #476
    Jets Insider VIP
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    18,612
    Quote Originally Posted by BushyTheBeaver View Post
    My mom was a few years older than Kitty Werthmann. Unlike Kitty, my mom was in a country that was actually invaded and occuppied by the Germans/Austrians. She had neighbors who were gunned down in the streets and shipped off to die in camps. And I can assure you she would rip this Kitty Werthman. a new ******* for daring to claim she "survived Hitler." Survived? Are you kidding me? Well, she does start right off by admitting that her people and family joyously, overwhelingly voted Hilter into power. Had Kitty been a few years older, she would have voted for him too. To claim she and her people/family, knew nothing about the camps, the persecution? What ***ing balls. The Austrians, likely including a lot of people in Kitty's family, were up to their eyeteeth in murder. The Austrians "survived" Hitler the same way Jefferson Davis "survived" slavery.

    Here's a list of prominent Austrian Nazis (whick, oh by the way, includes Hilter):

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Austrian_Nazis


    Here's a nice little summary of anti-semeticism in Austria (hint: Hitler didn't invent it):

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...ews_in_Austria

    The Mauthausen-Gusen concentration camp in Austria was in operation long before the war even started.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauthau...entration_camp



    Anyone who takes her as a victim, or even more astoundingly, somehow sees in her statements a convincing argument for unrestricted weapons ownership in the US...man, I don't know what to do for you. There are lots of good arguments for gun ownership. This isn't one of them.
    Wow...quite a post. I learned something. Truly at a loss for words.

  17. #477
    Hitler may well have got 98% of the vote in Austria, but Hitler never got 98% of the vote in a free and fair election in Germany - the most he got in an unrigged election was 43%. Saying that Hitler was "voted in" is like saying the Communist Party is voted in every electoral cycle in China.

    Having said that saying that Hitler arose to power because of an "unarmed citizenry" is complete rubbish; there was signficant armed resistance to the Nazis, not least by the communists. The relaxation of gun laws in 1928 made it easier for groups like the Nazis to get weaponry - and in actual fact it was Hitler's ability to get guns that was one key reason why he arose to power. And there really isn't that much difference in ideology between the Nazis of the late 1920's/early 1930's and the wing-nut right-wing militia-style groups we see in practically all western countries, the USA especially. For example Hitler railed compulsively against government and anti-nationalists and preached armed resistance against these "unseen forces".

  18. #478
    Quote Originally Posted by Winstonbiggs View Post
    There is no constitutional right to an assualt weapon, semi-automatice or automatic weapons or the right to large clips and bullets intended to do particular types of damage. There is no specific right to own any specific type of weapon. We certainly can regulate weapons and prevent those who are unfit to use them having them if we choose to.
    2nd Amendment says "arms" which can technically mean anything. Yes, I know semantics but in the late 18th century every house in this country had a rifle and/or pistol - those were the weapons the revolutionary war was fought with and that's the founding father's intent.

    As far as regulating weapons that is fine but people will always find a way. The NRA's silly school tactical special forces commando idea would waste $2 bil in taxpayer money - again that's peanuts for the pseudo fiscal conservative teabaggers but still alot of money. There really is no solution to this problem except society stop worshipping famous people which will never happen.
    Last edited by detjetsfan; 12-27-2012 at 01:15 AM.

  19. #479
    Quote Originally Posted by chiefst2000 View Post
    I felt the same. I always talk about the importance of learning from and understanding history. The article is a first hand account of how a free and democratic society can be transformed into a dictatorship in a few short years. Here in this thread we have posters essentially ridiculing the idea that an armed citizenry is a necessary ingredient for a free society. We had multiple posts ridiculing those that suggested that citizens with guns could resist a totalitarian regime. I also thought that it was important for people to understand that in the past it was very often left wing movements that paved the way for totalitarianism. This happened under the Nazi's as well as the Communists of the USSR and China.
    The Nazis were left-wing? Someone learned history from Glenn Beck and his chalkboard.

  20. #480
    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    Afghanistan says hi. They've effectively defeated both the USSR and US with just that, some difficult terrain, and the perserverence of deeply held beliefs.



    A nice fairy tale is the the Government, any Government, can be trusted to not abuse it's power and authority without some fear/respect of the people they rule.

    A disarmed disinterested populace is the speediest route to tyrany and worse. And we're already a disinterested people, in the majority.



    So you're willing to denounce as unintelligent every "protester" in the United Stated who has resorted to violence, or any form of protest outside the voting system then?



    You're so kind, to allow us to keep our rights. And you wonder why some of us worry about abuse of power....the idea that you have any right to revoke the rights of the rest of us is exibit A. why the Government, staffed with people like yourself, cannot be trusted to respect and protect the rights of us all.



    How would you define the "mental background check"? Would any depression, for example, be a disqualifier (if so, I'd have my rights revoked for being sad after my father died....when I was diagnosed with depression at one point)?

    The rights of the people to own guns is as important as any other right we possess. The right of the gun owner have nothing to do with your rights being removed, that only occurs whan an INDIVIDUAL chooses to break the Law (often dozens of laws) and infringes upon your rights. The individual does that, not "gun owners" as a group.

    Again, wholesale denouncement of an entire class of people in order to scapegoat them for political gain and added power is exibit B as to why the Government and people like yourself who staff it cannot be trusted to respect or protect the rights of us all.

    And I'm curious teach, are you willing to put in place the same limits and checks for other rights as you are for gun ownership? Say, speech and voting? No freedom of speech or to vote without background checks, mental health checks, and more? LIke ID checks for voting (far far less restrictive that any gun law is)?

    If not, you clearly do not view the 2nd amendment as a right at all, in which case your viewpoint is intrinsicly invalid. If you want to remove the right to own guns, there is a clear pathway to that, amend the Constitution via the democratic process to do so.

    Any other route is an infringement on our rights, a loss of freedom for the appearance of added safety (and appearence only).
    Afghanistan rebels had a little help from the greatest super power in the world. They were armed, trained and financially supported by that superpower. Going by your analogy, the American citizens would have to be funded by China to go against the government; hello end of the world. And at the end of the day, all that fighting and violence changed very little for the average person who lived in Afghanistan. They traded one brutal regime for another.

    Citizens using guns has little correlation with making real changes within a democratic government. Three of the world's greatest agents of change changed the world and they never raised a weapon or committed violence; Jesus Christ, Ghandi and Martin Luther King. The idea that the population needs to be armed to affect change in a democratic country is a lazy lie.

    As for the right to own weapons and having restrictions; there already are some restrictions for other rights. The first amendment affords us the freedom of speech but it does not allow you to say anything to anyone. Your rights should never infringe on the rights of others. Having a society which allows mentally ill citizens to amass weapons is the height of stupidity and absolutely infringes on the rights of other citizens.
    Last edited by intelligentjetsfan; 12-27-2012 at 09:06 AM.

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Follow Us