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Thread: Bar Stool Taxation

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by adpz View Post
    Fair enough - all of these topics are complicated and interwoven - and the results of actions largely speculative.

    I have a few friends at the US Treasury - one who works for Tim Geithner - and my interests aren't in taxation really. I'd be much happier if the US had some cogent plan about how to move into being a post-industrializing world-intergrated economy.

    The current way sure isn't working and that is most certainly not a problem to be solved by taxes one way or the other. And to me it's the biggest problem by far.

    I'd like to see the US adopt some sort of government-business industrial policy that creates real incentives for high-value-added manufacturing [and the inevitable service jobs it begets] along with a much lower corporate tax rate tied to local and national investment - investment not just in corporate assets but extending to investment in educational partnership, training, etc.

    Anyway - its a complex and unfortunately long-term issue.
    Amen brother

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefst2000 View Post
    It's appropriate at the moment as the current vote in the Senate involves extension of the Bush tax cuts for all or the Democratic version which raises taxes on the investor class.
    Yeah.

    Like 4 guys sitting down to eat a pizza.

    One guy eats 6 of the 8 slices and then convinces the 2 of the guys that the last guy is a socialist and it's mean of him to not let him have 7 of the 8 slices instead of a measly 6...

    damn unions and teachers

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by PlumberKhan View Post
    Yeah.

    Like 4 guys sitting down to eat a pizza.

    One guy eats 6 of the 8 slices and then convinces the 2 of the guys that the last guy is a socialist and it's mean of him to not let him have 7 of the 8 slices instead of a measly 6...

    damn unions and teachers
    I always ask to have my pie cut in 6 slices-i can't eat 8

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by PlumberKhan View Post
    Yeah.

    Like 4 guys sitting down to eat a pizza.

    One guy eats 6 of the 8 slices and then convinces the 2 of the guys that the last guy is a socialist and it's mean of him to not let him have 7 of the 8 slices instead of a measly 6...

    damn unions and teachers
    Not that your post or you are being serious but you hit on a good point. Liberals seem to believe that there is a pie with a particular amount of slices and if one person gets 3 the next goes hungry. Fortunately that's not how things work. In the real world if someone makes it, he gets his 7 slices but the pie expands in the process. The next guy still gets his two slices. Sometimes those slices are bigger slices by default. The first guy expanded the pie. Everyone benefits.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by chiefst2000 View Post
    Not that your post or you are being serious but you hit on a good point. Liberals seem to believe that there is a pie with a particular amount of slices and if one person gets 3 the next goes hungry. Fortunately that's not how things work. In the real world if someone makes it, he gets his 7 slices but the pie expands in the process. The next guy still gets his two slices. Sometimes those slices are bigger slices by default. The first guy expanded the pie. Everyone benefits.
    yeah! Things aren't like a pizza..they are like 10 beers...get it straight!



  6. #26
    first I'll preface this with the fact that I think our current tax system is a mess and I love some of the ideas I have read here on this forum for a flat tax/consumption tax.

    To be serious this analogy is very poor....


    This analogy does not take into account consumption or income...

    The analogy makes the assumption that every person in the country uses the exact same amount of resources and government services. It would have to change to each man drinking a different sized beer, some in a shot glass some in a 5 gallon jug, also some of these guys would have only had $1-$5 on them while the richest might have $1,000,000.

    It also suggests that we share all expenses and pay taxes in only one way, and doesn't take into account any other kind of tax each man pays, and at what rate.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by piney View Post
    first I'll preface this with the fact that I think our current tax system is a mess and I love some of the ideas I have read here on this forum for a flat tax/consumption tax.

    To be serious this analogy is very poor....


    This analogy does not take into account consumption or income...

    The analogy makes the assumption that every person in the country uses the exact same amount of resources and government services. It would have to change to each man drinking a different sized beer, some in a shot glass some in a 5 gallon jug, also some of these guys would have only had $1-$5 on them while the richest might have $1,000,000.

    It also suggests that we share all expenses and pay taxes in only one way, and doesn't take into account any other kind of tax each man pays, and at what rate.
    You miss the point. This is about the language. Anytime there is a suggestion of lowering taxes for everyone the left immediately calls it a "tax cut for the rich". The point here is that any tax cut that includes all citizens will always be demagogued in that way because rich people pay a lot more and therefore any cut in taxes, when looked at in dollar terms would favor the rich by default.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by FF2 View Post
    The rich guy is down in the Caymans laughing at people who pay tax on their ****y watered down domestic beer. And he owns the bar too.
    I'd vote for that guy for President.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by chiefst2000 View Post
    You miss the point. This is about the language. Anytime there is a suggestion of lowering taxes for everyone the left immediately calls it a "tax cut for the rich". The point here is that any tax cut that includes all citizens will always be demagogued in that way because rich people pay a lot more and therefore any cut in taxes, when looked at in dollar terms would favor the rich by default.
    So just say that rather than use a poor analogy. Using a false analogy to make your point weakens the argument.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefst2000 View Post
    In the real world if someone makes it, he gets his 7 slices but the pie expands in the process.
    And it Mitt Romney's world, the fat a** who just ate 7 slices would then stand up and say "I MADE THIS PIZZA ALL BY MYSELF AND NEVER RECEIVED HELP FROM ANYONE. I DID IT ALL ALONE"...

    and the cook would look out from the kitchen like this:


  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by piney View Post
    So just say that rather than use a poor analogy. Using a false analogy to make your point weakens the argument.
    I think the analogy is spot on.

  12. #32
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    Hopefully the tenth guy is at least getting laid by the chicks at this bar, cuz he's getting ripped by those freeloaders on the beers.

    *****es.

  13. #33
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    These bullsh*t analogies, like Palmetto's from an earlier discussion on taxes, always end with"the ignorant common folk" killing the "intelligent rich guy".

    I want to be rich some day, and have no interest in 'persecuting' the rich. I want to eliminate the carried interest loophole and raise the tax rates on those making over a million by a couple of percentage points.

    After a decade of fighting a two front war in the middle east, while simultaneously cutting taxes, I think it's time to let those tax breaks expire - and return to rates reminiscent of the greatest peacetime economic expansion in human history.

    I'm not outside a rich family's house with a goddam pitchfork.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by PlumberKhan View Post
    And it Mitt Romney's world, WARAGRBEL!!!
    Since we're playing the analogy game, here is mine:

    1. I worked 8 hours today to make enough for a Pizza.

    2. I buy that Pizza.

    3. The State tells me I owe 4 slices (of 8) to them. Because they built (with my money) the roads the pizza ingredients had to travel on and the public school teacher who taught the Pizza maker math.

    4. My 4 slices still taste good. It's good to have them.

    5. Of my lost 4 slices, 2 are lost in transit by beaurocracy, fraud and waste.

    6. My two ramaining lost slices are sliced and diced down to 100 minislices and spread around, another 70 minislcies are lost in this due to beaurocracy, fraud and waste.

    Of whats left, about 10 of the minislices are enjoyed by others, 8 out of the 10 of whom are able-bodied and could and should have worked for their own Pizza.

    Of the 2 little minislices who legitimately went to the needy, I have no qualms.

    It's the rest that bugs me.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    Since we're playing the analogy game, here is mine:

    1. I worked 8 hours today to make enough for a Pizza.

    2. I buy that Pizza.

    3. The State tells me I owe 4 slices (of 8) to them. Because they built (with my money) the roads the pizza ingredients had to travel on and the public school teacher who taught the Pizza maker math.

    4. My 4 slices still taste good. It's good to have them.

    5. Of my lost 4 slices, 2 are lost in transit by beaurocracy, fraud and waste.

    6. My two ramaining lost slices are sliced and diced down to 100 minislices and spread around, another 70 minislcies are lost in this due to beaurocracy, fraud and waste.

    Of whats left, about 10 of the minislices are enjoyed by others, 8 out of the 10 of whom are able-bodied and could and should have worked for their own Pizza.

    Of the 2 little minislices who legitimately went to the needy, I have no qualms.

    It's the rest that bugs me.
    Well said. If we cut the waste and garbage out of government, shrink it so it is more efficient and we still need more revenues so be it. Its the massive amount of waste that comes out of Washington that bothers me the most.

    This whole issue of raising taxes on the "rich" is a distraction IMO. The revenues from these increases is minuscule when compared to the deficit. We have a President that is literally running a campaign whose theme is we need to raise taxes on the rich to solve our problems. 1.4 trillion in yearly deficits can't be solved by raising 20-30 billion a year in new taxes. It is just a distraction.

    Tom Coburn has put together a list which includes hundreds of billions in yearly government waste and duplication. We have an outline by Ersking Bowles that could be tweaked. We need entitlement reforms and means testing. This tax hike stuff comes from poll tests that say most people would agree to raise taxes on anyone other then themselves.

    I don't care if rich people pay more. Won't effect what I pay. The issue is that once the 30-50 billion is burned through the rest of us have to deal with the other 1.4 trillion. Who pays for that? The amount is staggering. We need to deal with spending first.

  16. #36
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    Oversimplified analogies are fun.

    The Class Warfare Hustle

    A Wall Street CEO, a union worker, and a Tea Party member are sitting at a table with 12 cookies. The CEO grabs 11, turns to the Tea Party member, and says, "You better watch him... That union guy is out to take your cookie."

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    Since we're playing the analogy game, here is mine:

    1. I worked 8 hours today to make enough for a Pizza.

    2. I buy that Pizza.

    3. The State tells me I owe 4 slices (of 8) to them. Because they built (with my money) the roads the pizza ingredients had to travel on and the public school teacher who taught the Pizza maker math.

    4. My 4 slices still taste good. It's good to have them.

    5. Of my lost 4 slices, 2 are lost in transit by beaurocracy, fraud and waste.

    6. My two ramaining lost slices are sliced and diced down to 100 minislices and spread around, another 70 minislcies are lost in this due to beaurocracy, fraud and waste.

    Of whats left, about 10 of the minislices are enjoyed by others, 8 out of the 10 of whom are able-bodied and could and should have worked for their own Pizza.

    Of the 2 little minislices who legitimately went to the needy, I have no qualms.

    It's the rest that bugs me.
    Should you really be eating half a pizza FAT BOY!!!!

    (that was a joke)

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by SafetyBlitz View Post
    These bullsh*t analogies, like Palmetto's from an earlier discussion on taxes, always end with"the ignorant common folk" killing the "intelligent rich guy".

    I want to be rich some day, and have no interest in 'persecuting' the rich. I want to eliminate the carried interest loophole and raise the tax rates on those making over a million by a couple of percentage points.

    After a decade of fighting a two front war in the middle east, while simultaneously cutting taxes, I think it's time to let those tax breaks expire - and return to rates reminiscent of the greatest peacetime economic expansion in human history.

    I'm not outside a rich family's house with a goddam pitchfork.

    Please be more specific on my BS analogy. I am usually well informed, especially on taxes (though not like sp cpa). I like to pay attention when my tax payments go to support parasites and losers. I'll be happy to duel if you provide specifics.
    How about every citizen pays some taxes. And eliminate the grossly abused food stamp program. And student subsized loans. And subsidized home loans. And a myriad of "vote for me, here's money" programs.
    Sounds like you are outside a rich man's house with a pitchfork - figuratively speaking.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by SafetyBlitz View Post
    These bullsh*t analogies, like Palmetto's from an earlier discussion on taxes, always end with"the ignorant common folk" killing the "intelligent rich guy".

    I want to be rich some day, and have no interest in 'persecuting' the rich. I want to eliminate the carried interest loophole and raise the tax rates on those making over a million by a couple of percentage points.

    After a decade of fighting a two front war in the middle east, while simultaneously cutting taxes, I think it's time to let those tax breaks expire - and return to rates reminiscent of the greatest peacetime economic expansion in human history.

    I'm not outside a rich family's house with a goddam pitchfork.
    I did not read Palmettos post, just yours. As a conservative... I think I agree with you on tax increases. Many of my self employed clients make over 250K or there about.... They pay their own health insurance, provide their own NON GUARATEED pension etc... I can ABSOLUTELY tell you that my buddies that went on to become cops and teachers are (in the big picture) wealthier than myself and clients. My buddy Jim, a retired cop, receives almost 70K and full health insurance since age 43.

    250K simply isn't enough to even equalize oneself to a mid level retired government worker. However...once you are over say 350K.... a 39 percent rate is FAIR GAME in my view.

    Real problem....you could raise the taxes 100 percent and it wont matter.

    Government will waste it. Why do we have 17 military bases in Japan?

    This will never end until it ends badly like Greece or Spain.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by southparkcpa View Post
    Real problem....you could raise the taxes 100 percent and it wont matter.

    Government will waste it. Why do we have 17 military bases in Japan?

    This will never end until it ends badly like Greece or Spain.
    Agreed. We need real reform, not a tweak here or there.

    Unfortunately, it's not going to happen under the current structure and climate in Washington. Also, some common sense reform may put the majority of jobs in your field on the chopping block.

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