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Thread: Copernicus: Where do you stand on this?

  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by isired View Post
    The problem with teachers is, how do you stop the good, long term teachers with higher salaries from getting replaced with new teachers with lower salaries when the budget gets tighter?
    Are you implying Teachers should not face the same difficulties as we age that every other profession does? The difficulty of competing with cheaper, younger, hungrier competitors?

    Well, if that is your view, the answer is simple.....disband the Unions.

    The reason "old" teachers are not as valuble as young teachers, despite all their experience, is cost. Old teacher make a ton of money, frankly. Many, in many jurisdictions, well over $100,000/year in cash, much less in total compensation. For 8 months of work.

    Frankly, it's irresponsible for a public agency to do that if an adequate-for-the-work option exists that is 90% as good, at 1/2 the cost.

    Thats way old (and often cruising, clow, lazier) employees get replaced by the young. It's teh right decision, cost wise, at minimal actual loss performence wise when judged as a whole.

    We all face it, every day, in every job.

    Teachers are no unique. They do not warrant a unique protection from the next generation.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    Are you implying Teachers should not face the same difficulties as we age that every other profession does? The difficulty of competing with cheaper, younger, hungrier competitors?

    Well, if that is your view, the answer is simple.....disband the Unions.

    The reason "old" teachers are not as valuble as young teachers, despite all their experience, is cost. Old teacher make a ton of money, frankly. Many, in many jurisdictions, well over $100,000/year in cash, much less in total compensation. For 8 months of work.

    Frankly, it's irresponsible for a public agency to do that if an adequate-for-the-work option exists that is 90% as good, at 1/2 the cost.

    Thats way old (and often cruising, clow, lazier) employees get replaced by the young. It's teh right decision, cost wise, at minimal actual loss performence wise when judged as a whole.

    We all face it, every day, in every job.

    Teachers are no unique. They do not warrant a unique protection from the next generation.
    New teachers take years to get lesson plans and the every day performance they give down pat - I would say you're getting about 50% from a good one, and those kids don't get that year back.

    I can only speak to the cases I know, but there was a 4 year period where they hired 4 different math teachers to fill one of those spots - that's 4 years of inadequate teaching (very inadequate, if you know what they had to go through to find new math teachers that they thought were decent). The problem is, there's no 'revenue' to tie higher salaries to. So you would just lose the best teachers, in theory - but in reality, you would just eliminate it as a career choice for those that would be the best and brightest.

    I know you think old teachers are lazy, and surely some are, as in any profession - there was a guy I worked with who skated by the last 5 years before retiring, doing the crossword puzzle every day. Non-union. It happens. But most are not. And most do a better job than they did when they started, and vastly better than those that didn't stick it out. So your choice is really more about education kids, and how much you think that means to our society.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by isired View Post
    New teachers take years to get lesson plans and the every day performance they give down pat - I would say you're getting about 50% from a good one, and those kids don't get that year back.
    I don't believe that 50% figure tbqh. Not in any form.

    Younger employees in general are hungrier, more energetic, more passionate, less bitter, less cynical, less baggage, healthier (less time off) with less family responsabillities (less time off) and more up-to-date educations, with far less "we do it my (old) way" attitudes.

    I can only speak to the cases I know.....
    Ask our resident poster Ken what the debate value of "cases I know" are.

    I know you think old teachers are lazy
    I think old employees are, in general, more experie3nced and knowledgeable, at the cost of a variety of drawbacks and limitations, generally speaking, and that this is compunded exponentially in any Union-based employment, where the oldest, best paid, most benefits employees are routinely the worst acting, least productive, most problem creating, worst attitudes in the group.

    As I said, in EVERY sector of employement, the old wily vets face competition from the hungry young up-and-comers.

    Teachers are not, and should not, be an exception to general rules of competition, because teachers (despite all the propaganda) are not special or different, they're just workers working a job, same as the rest of us.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    I don't believe that 50% figure tbqh. Not in any form.

    Younger employees in general are hungrier, more energetic, more passionate, less bitter, less cynical, less baggage, healthier (less time off) with less family responsabillities (less time off) and more up-to-date educations, with far less "we do it my (old) way" attitudes.



    Ask our resident poster Ken what the debate value of "cases I know" are.



    I think old employees are, in general, more experie3nced and knowledgeable, at the cost of a variety of drawbacks and limitations, generally speaking, and that this is compunded exponentially in any Union-based employment, where the oldest, best paid, most benefits employees are routinely the worst acting, least productive, most problem creating, worst attitudes in the group.

    As I said, in EVERY sector of employement, the old wily vets face competition from the hungry young up-and-comers.

    Teachers are not, and should not, be an exception to general rules of competition, because teachers (despite all the propaganda) are not special or different, they're just workers working a job, same as the rest of us.
    A 3rd or 4th year teacher is all of those things you attribute to 'young' teachers, with less of the many shortcomings of a rookie, and they're the ones on the hot seat these days, stick in limbo. But forget about that - what's the incentive to teach if you know it's a 10 year career? Here's the 'difference' you're looking for: In other industries, you assume you'll prove your worth on the bottom line. Either through sales, or efficiency, knowledge, etc. Here the only thing that can possibly change is your salary, to the detriment of your value on the bottom line, no matter what your value In the classroom is. You can't teach 2 classrooms at once, you can't teach them 'faster' and get the next group In there early, etc.

    TBH, it sounds like you don't value public education, and are willing to let it sink as far as it can in order to cut the money spent on it.
    Last edited by isired; 09-04-2012 at 09:54 AM.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by isired View Post
    A 3rd or 4th year teacher is all of those things you attribute to 'young' teachers, with less of the many shortcomings of a rookie, and they're the ones on the hot seat these days, stick in limbo.
    And you base this on what, more "the people I know" facts?

    Again, it's painful to have to keep repeating myself, but Teachers are not a special class of citizen. It's a job, they work it, and they face all (or should face all) the same challenges as the rest of us in teh working world. So save the complaining for the unemployed, since most of us worker bees already face these challenges every day ourselves, for less pay, less benefits and far less Union protection.

    But forget about that - what's the incentive to teach if you know it's a 10 year career?
    A paycheck, the benefits, and 2-4 months a year off.

    Whats the "incentive" to work in any career? We all could face a 10 year career too if we're not good enough or if circumstances, technology and/or business trends change.

    TBH, it sounds like you don't value public education, and are willing to let it sink as far as it can in order to cut the money spent on it.
    Here is what I don't value, stupid arguments and annointing cetain special interest groups and voter blocks as protected citizens with more rights than the rest of us.

    Simply describing my view as "not valuing public education" is ignorant and simplistic, and frankly beneath you Isi, it's the kind of empty talking point I'd expect from YellowSubmarine.

    As with all public services, I value Public Education quite a bit, IF managed appropriate and efficiently, as every public service must be.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    And you base this on what, more "the people I know" facts?

    Again, it's painful to have to keep repeating myself, but Teachers are not a special class of citizen. It's a job, they work it, and they face all (or should face all) the same challenges as the rest of us in teh working world. So save the complaining for the unemployed, since most of us worker bees already face these challenges every day ourselves, for less pay, less benefits and far less Union protection.



    A paycheck, the benefits, and 2-4 months a year off.
    I'm not saying teachers are a special class of citizen, I'm saying it's plain and simple that with no job security, far less people, especially good people, would go into teaching. You're going to get a master's degree to work a job that you'll lose to a starting teacher before you get to half of your max salary?
    Whats the "incentive" to work in any career? We all could face a 10 year career too if we're not good enough or if circumstances, technology and/or business trends change.
    So why go into a career that you'd be almost certain to be let go even if you are better than good enough? Boggles my mind how you don't see that when you take away the ultimate measuring stick (what you add to the bottom line), and add continual budget crunches, there's very little chance that public education, especially in a city, could maintain any kind of reasonable quality at all without 'special' circumstances. I'm sure there are places where the power of the union is accused, and maybe even places where teachers are more highly paid than other available occupations, but I haven't seen it. My wife (a counselor, not a teacher, but same scale I believe) makes half of what I do, with a master's and 10+ years experience. Sure, she's off July and August, but when she's working, she never, ever has a 'close my door and be a slacker today' day. And several times a year she is dealing with life and death situations - sometimes with a teacher along side her.

    Yeah, that's just 'case I know', I could just BS and say "78% of teachers in NYC..." but the truth is, it all files logic and reason as well. It would greatly surprise me if you can't see the difference between someone working in a for profit (or for gain) situation is different, and how good teachers would get cut on salary alone without protection, and how that would ultimately play out. That's why I question the value you place on public education.

    If you're talking about changing how discipline etc.Is handled, I'm all for it. But I'm positive that eliminating any form of tenure would destroy the quality of NYC public education, even further than budget cuts already have.

  7. #47
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    TEACHERS!

    Destroying everything.

    Absolute horror.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by PlumberKhan View Post
    TEACHERS!

    Destroying everything.

    Absolute horror.
    PLUMBERS!

    Providing nothing to the literary community.


  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    Are you implying Teachers should not face the same difficulties as we age that every other profession does? The difficulty of competing with cheaper, younger, hungrier competitors?

    Well, if that is your view, the answer is simple.....disband the Unions.

    The reason "old" teachers are not as valuble as young teachers, despite all their experience, is cost. Old teacher make a ton of money, frankly. Many, in many jurisdictions, well over $100,000/year in cash, much less in total compensation. For 8 months of work.

    Frankly, it's irresponsible for a public agency to do that if an adequate-for-the-work option exists that is 90% as good, at 1/2 the cost.

    Thats way old (and often cruising, clow, lazier) employees get replaced by the young. It's teh right decision, cost wise, at minimal actual loss performence wise when judged as a whole.

    We all face it, every day, in every job.

    Teachers are no unique. They do not warrant a unique protection from the next generation.
    Teaching is unique because it is almost impossible to evaluate. The impact a teacher makes in 8th grade may not "pay off" until the child becomes a college student. It is one of the few professions where there is no clear cut margin of immediate profit or loss. Teachers do not sell things for a profit. There is no monies exchanged. There is value to the older more experienced employee in the business world if he continues to sell his product. If he can continue to sell a product and bring in a profit he is worth his position. Americans do not value good teachers. When budgets get tight, the perception is that society can "get away" with newer cheaper teachers. Politicians are now making it there platform trying to convince the public that the newer, cheaper teachers are actually better than more experience ones! We observed this in NYC and NJ with Mayor Bloomberg and Gov Christie with trying to eliminate "First in First Out." So we are to believe that teaching is the one profession where experience across the board means nothing. Its laughable.
    Last edited by copernicus; 09-04-2012 at 09:35 PM.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by copernicus View Post
    Teaching is unique because it is almost impossible to evaluate.


    I guess you really must belive this utter fantasy in order to hold the beleifs you do.

    Its laughable.
    Yes, some things sure are.



    Best of luck in this new school year Teach.

  11. #51
    New Jersey teacher voted best of 2011 accused of sexual assault involving 15-year-old student

    By Joshua Rhett Miller

    Published September 04, 2012

    A New Jersey high school teacher who was named one of the state’s best in 2011, then arrested for having sex with a 15-year-old student, posted bail Tuesday, authorities said.

    Acting Essex County prosecutor Carolyn Murray said West Orange High School teacher Erica DePalo, 33, of Montclair, was charged Friday with first-degree aggravated sexual assault, second-degree sexual assault and endangering the welfare of a child.

    DePalo, who was named Essex County’s Teacher of the Year in 2011, allegedly began a sexual relationship with the unidentified male in June and continued sexual contact with him until late August.

    The student was in DePalo’s honors English class, West Orange Detective Louis Mignone said in a news release. DePalo also worked as the school's junior varsity tennis coach, authorities said.

    Judge Martin Cronin set bail at $100,000. DePalo had posted bail as of midday Tuesday, but she had not yet been arraigned, officials at the Essex County Prosecutor’s Office told FoxNews.com.

    Attempts to reach DePalo on Tuesday were unsuccessful.

    Jim O’Neill, interim superintendent of the West Orange School District, said DePalo had been suspended indefinitely. Counselors will also be available to students, he said.

    "The school district will cooperate with the prosecutor’s office in every way," O'Neill said in a statement to FoxNews.com. "The West Orange School District prides itself on being vested in the health, safety and welfare of our students."

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    Just a sad story. Should be fired and jailed if guilty. The political robots who currently run education (Bloomberg, Christie, etc) have twisted this system into such a bad place that I am not surprised that this politically driven award would be given to such a poor excuse for a teacher.

  13. #53
    A hulking Queens gym teacher and former college football player claims a pupil fractured his ankle, injured his knee and forced him to go to a shrink for stress — even though the kid was only 50 pounds and in first grade.

    Burly, 220-pound PS 330 teacher John Webster, 27, said a 4-foot-2 Rodrigo Carpio, 6, also kicked and pinched the Elmhurst school’s principal, a security officer and another teacher during a rampage in April.



    This is the "teacher"


    http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/q...qaqDVI148eOm4N
    Last edited by Frequent Flyer; 10-02-2012 at 01:31 AM.

  14. #54
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  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Frequent Flyer View Post
    A hulking Queens gym teacher and former college football player claims a pupil fractured his ankle, injured his knee and forced him to go to a shrink for stress — even though the kid was only 50 pounds and in first grade.

    Burly, 220-pound PS 330 teacher John Webster, 27, said a 4-foot-2 Rodrigo Carpio, 6, also kicked and pinched the Elmhurst school’s principal, a security officer and another teacher during a rampage in April.



    This is the "teacher"


    http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/q...qaqDVI148eOm4N
    So your point is that if you are large in size, a six year old should be able to physically assault you?

    If this teacher put his hands on the kid to stop him he'd be in the paper for a whole other reason.

    Step into a NYC public school and see how many of these type of children ruin schools. Observe how they run as fast as they can down hallways pushing and hitting anyone in their way making an unsafe situation like an overcrowded school even more unsafe. Ask them to stop, or slow down? They will spit right in your face and keep running. Cant suspend them, cant ever put your hands on them. Call for help? Your superiors will claim the teacher has no classroom management skills. Principals are too worried about how the government is screwing schools through unfair testing, they have no time for discipline problems.

    unreal
    Last edited by copernicus; 10-02-2012 at 09:23 PM.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by copernicus View Post
    unreal
    Indeed.

    You are.

  17. #57
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    Can/Should that teacher be able to sue the parents of the kid for assaulting him? Instead of the city...

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by copernicus View Post
    So your point is that if you are large in size, a six year old should be able to physically assault you?

    If this teacher put his hands on the kid to stop him he'd be in the paper for a whole other reason.

    Step into a NYC public school and see how many of these type of children ruin schools. Observe how they run as fast as they can down hallways pushing and hitting anyone in their way making an unsafe situation like an overcrowded school even more unsafe. Ask them to stop, or slow down? They will spit right in your face and keep running. Cant suspend them, cant ever put your hands on them. Call for help? Your superiors will claim the teacher has no classroom management skills. Principals are too worried about how the government is screwing schools through unfair testing, they have no time for discipline problems.

    unreal
    Oh please.

    That "teacher" is just looking for a payday. He has to see a shrink for stress? Are you kidding me?

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Frequent Flyer View Post
    Oh please.

    That "teacher" is just looking for a payday. He has to see a shrink for stress? Are you kidding me?
    Sadly, these issues happen often. Bottom 10% of the PS that is physically and verbally out of control physically hurt a teacher by outrageously being unsafe and nothing happens to the child and the teacher is left injured. I am happy that this guy took the next step and got his story in the paper. The public should be outraged at the out of control kids and their parents who do nothing rather than the teacher.

    Ask yourself, do you think this out of control six year old who had the audacity to kick a teacher and bite a principal has a direct negative affect on EVERY student in his class?

    NCLB allows severe behavior problems more easily to return to the general education setting. It is all to save money. Less special ed kids means less special ed teachers needed. Special education costs the most. Its much easier to totally ignore the behavior problems and then claim that it is the teacher who has poor classroom management skills.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Sharrow View Post
    Can/Should that teacher be able to sue the parents of the kid for assaulting him? Instead of the city...
    Walk through a NYC public school and see how you take your safety into your own hands. Its a joke. All the money is spent on mayor Bloomberg's friends in high places and testing. Mold, out of control kids with weapons, no air conditioning, broken furniture, and rodents.............

    Its 2012 and there are a total of 2 working computers in my overcrowded classroom of 35 students.

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