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Thread: Wednesday 8/8 Practice and News

  1. #341
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    Fair enough. Maybe I shouldn't criticize Tanny that much for the pick bc of what you guys have shown. Seems like a combination of the draft being thin and the average projection being right about where we took him.

    But when can we start blaming the player? And when can we say the Jets have taken the project too far?

  2. #342
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    Quote Originally Posted by DDNYjets View Post
    Fair enough. Maybe I shouldn't criticize Tanny that much for the pick bc of what you guys have shown. Seems like a combination of the draft being thin and the average projection being right about where we took him.

    But when can we start blaming the player? And when can we say the Jets have taken the project too far?
    There is no rhyme or reason to this, the player deserves 3 years, that is the general rule, some require more, some require less, I would think that if not by the end of next year, Ducasse is either not getting significant playing time in rotation on the OL, or is a starter, than maybe we can start thinking Ducasse may not turn out to be the player we hope or that the team thought and hoped he'd be.

    But from all indications, he IS progressing, IS being noticed, IS being recognized by coaches, other players, and the head coach, THIS is all positive for the player.

  3. #343
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    Quote Originally Posted by DDNYjets View Post
    Fair enough. Maybe I shouldn't criticize Tanny that much for the pick bc of what you guys have shown. Seems like a combination of the draft being thin and the average projection being right about where we took him.

    But when can we start blaming the player? And when can we say the Jets have taken the project too far?
    I'd say that it kind of depends, and that there's a bit of a range. Sure, you'd like "projects" to show a lot by the end of their second year, but sometimes it might take 3 years, especially if they were extremely raw.

    Also depends on the position, and the level of difficulty associated with it. Some positions are just harder to pick up and learn.

  4. #344
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Ray19 View Post
    There is no rhyme or reason to this, the player deserves 3 years, that is the general rule, some require more, some require less, I would think that if not by the end of next year, Ducasse is either not getting significant playing time in rotation on the OL, or is a starter, than maybe we can start thinking Ducasse may not turn out to be the player we hope or that the team thought and hoped he'd be.

    But from all indications, he IS progressing, IS being noticed, IS being recognized by coaches, other players, and the head coach, THIS is all positive for the player.
    By the end of next year!!? I think it's safe to say if that Ducasse is not getting significant playing time by the end of next year than he's good as gone, seeing as he's on a 4 year deal. I think it's a stretch to even say he is progressing. Ryan may have acknowledged progression, but he already declared the competition for the OL spot over. Hunter, by all accounts, was fairly hideous last season, and there wasn't a competition for that spot either.

    I haven't heard any positive news from other players. I think if we see nothing of substance by the end of preseason, it's unlikely that he'll amount to much, but the Jets will most likely keep him around for depth and cheapness (about $550,000 / year). But if he doesn't look sharp when he's on the field in preseason, that's a really bad sign. If he doesn't get much playing time in the season this year, I find it unlikely that he's going to be successful in his 4th year.

  5. #345
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Ray19 View Post
    The JPP comparison is a good one, in terms of player stature coming out of the draft, both had very good raw attributes at their positions, with a lot of upside. JPP to his credit, developed quickly, Ducasse has not, and he was further impacted by the lockout.

    I don't get the crying about Ducasse. Some fans want to put labels on players, give them immediate grades, and have no patience, and no understanding how the player developmental process works.
    It's not a good comparison for the simple fact that you're comparing an OT to a DE. Why do you think JPP was projected to go much sooner? Because his raw talents as a DE could be developed much faster than someone with raw talent as an OT.

    Also, many here, including yourself, have been using the lack of TC excuse for Ducasse now for two seasons. How many more years of excuses are we going to give him before we finally conclude that he's not an NFL starter and probably never will be (barring injury to someone else)?

  6. #346
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    For a 2nd round pick Ducasse is a complete and utter bust. Similar to Rick Terry and Alex Van Dyke.

  7. #347
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    Having done no research to support this statement, and speaking completely from my dwindling memory, but didn't we call Brick a bust his first couple of years?

  8. #348
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jordy View Post
    It's not a good comparison for the simple fact that you're comparing an OT to a DE. Why do you think JPP was projected to go much sooner? Because his raw talents as a DE could be developed much faster than someone with raw talent as an OT.

    Also, many here, including yourself, have been using the lack of TC excuse for Ducasse now for two seasons. How many more years of excuses are we going to give him before we finally conclude that he's not an NFL starter and probably never will be (barring injury to someone else)?
    You really have to ask? Ray Ray will keep giving excuses as long as the player is on the team.

  9. #349
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ray Ray19 View Post
    There is no rhyme or reason to this, the player deserves 3 years, that is the general rule, some require more, some require less, I would think that if not by the end of next year, Ducasse is either not getting significant playing time in rotation on the OL, or is a starter, than maybe we can start thinking Ducasse may not turn out to be the player we hope or that the team thought and hoped he'd be.

    But from all indications, he IS progressing, IS being noticed, IS being recognized by coaches, other players, and the head coach, THIS is all positive for the player.
    3 years for what? 3 years before being cut - sure, I'll grant you that. But its certainly possible to draw certain conclusions prior to a full three years. Its not jumping the gun to say that Vlad has been disappointing thus far. A player may deserve 3 years to play up to his full potential, but in the interim you'd like to see some indication that he has ability to contribute and you'd actually like to see some actual contribution. Unlike some UDFA, Ducasse has been given every opportunity to win a job - by most indications, he's come up short.

    I'll still hope against all logic that the guy turns into a meaningful contributor, but everything we've seen so far points to the fact that Ducasse was a swing and a miss for the Jets. Not the end of the world, but no reason not to acknowledge it. a 2nd round OL should be starting in year 1. And if not in year 1, certainly by year 2.

    The positives you list above are very Gholston-esque. The team is trying to motivate him - which they should. We'll see what happens when they start keeping score.

  10. #350
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    Quote Originally Posted by crasherino View Post
    3 years for what? 3 years before being cut - sure, I'll grant you that. But its certainly possible to draw certain conclusions prior to a full three years. Its not jumping the gun to say that Vlad has been disappointing thus far. A player may deserve 3 years to play up to his full potential, but in the interim you'd like to see some indication that he has ability to contribute and you'd actually like to see some actual contribution. Unlike some UDFA, Ducasse has been given every opportunity to win a job - by most indications, he's come up short.

    I'll still hope against all logic that the guy turns into a meaningful contributor, but everything we've seen so far points to the fact that Ducasse was a swing and a miss for the Jets. Not the end of the world, but no reason not to acknowledge it. a 2nd round OL should be starting in year 1. And if not in year 1, certainly by year 2.

    The positives you list above are very Gholston-esque. The team is trying to motivate him - which they should. We'll see what happens when they start keeping score.
    Exactly. You dont cut the guy in year 3 BUT you would hope to see some signs that the player has ability. Thus far Vlad has shown very, very little to give hope that he will turn into a starter at some point. Much like Gholston, who showed nothing to lead anyone to believe he could even make a roster, Vlad is on the same career path.

  11. #351
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jordy View Post
    It's not a good comparison for the simple fact that you're comparing an OT to a DE. Why do you think JPP was projected to go much sooner? Because his raw talents as a DE could be developed much faster than someone with raw talent as an OT.

    Also, many here, including yourself, have been using the lack of TC excuse for Ducasse now for two seasons. How many more years of excuses are we going to give him before we finally conclude that he's not an NFL starter and probably never will be (barring injury to someone else)?
    entering his 3rd year, ducasse is at best the 4th best guard on the team. he can't play tackle or center. if i had the choice of keeping him active on gameday or a kicker who would only kick off b/c he had a strong leg, i'd take the kicker.

  12. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by stanner View Post
    Having done no research to support this statement, and speaking completely from my dwindling memory, but didn't we call Brick a bust his first couple of years?
    It's easy to label someone a bust when they're taken in the top 10 picks of the draft and they don't excel to Pro Bowl levels within a couple of years.

    People may have referred to Brick as a bust but does that mean they were necessarily valid?

    Brick has started every game since he was a rookie. Not only has Ducasse not been able to get into the starting lineup, he hasn't really been in the rotation as a trusted back-up.

    If people called Brick a bust, we could also call Sanchez a bust. Maybe even Keller.

  13. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jordy View Post
    It's easy to label someone a bust when they're taken in the top 10 picks of the draft and they don't excel to Pro Bowl levels within a couple of years.

    People may have referred to Brick as a bust but does that mean they were necessarily valid?

    Brick has started every game since he was a rookie. Not only has Ducasse not been able to get into the starting lineup, he hasn't really been in the rotation as a trusted back-up.

    If people called Brick a bust, we could also call Sanchez a bust. Maybe even Keller.
    brick was uneven his first few years. but generally, good players show flashes amid their inconsistency. all ducasse has ever done is suck.

  14. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by augustiniak View Post
    brick was uneven his first few years. but generally, good players show flashes amid their inconsistency. all ducasse has ever done is suck.
    Uneven is an excellent word for what Brick was those first 2 years.

    But hardly "bust" material.

  15. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by crasherino View Post
    3 years for what? 3 years before being cut - sure, I'll grant you that. But its certainly possible to draw certain conclusions prior to a full three years. Its not jumping the gun to say that Vlad has been disappointing thus far. A player may deserve 3 years to play up to his full potential, but in the interim you'd like to see some indication that he has ability to contribute and you'd actually like to see some actual contribution. Unlike some UDFA, Ducasse has been given every opportunity to win a job - by most indications, he's come up short.

    I'll still hope against all logic that the guy turns into a meaningful contributor, but everything we've seen so far points to the fact that Ducasse was a swing and a miss for the Jets. Not the end of the world, but no reason not to acknowledge it. a 2nd round OL should be starting in year 1. And if not in year 1, certainly by year 2.

    The positives you list above are very Gholston-esque. The team is trying to motivate him - which they should. We'll see what happens when they start keeping score.

    take no issue with this post, except for the bolded part.

    to think that Ducasse still has a reasonable chance of becoming a decent NFL player -- starting quality, or at least a very competent back up -- is not "against all logic" at this point in his career.

    without reading through the entire thread, it seems to me that most people who are not yet ready to label him beyond hope are pointing to the fact that A LOT of nfl players take 3 years or more to develop. Crash, I'm pretty sure you were around to read GJ&H's rants about Brian Thomas over the first five years or so of his career. but, as we know, he developed into a very serviceable player during the second half of his career -- and the NFL landscape is littered with examples like this.

    is it a disappointment that a second round pick hasn't developed more quickly? definitely. but does that mean that there's virtually no hope for him to ever become a decent player? no at all. i'd put VD's odds at about 50-50 at this point of not completely busting (never becoming the player i described above -- a starer, or quality backup). not great, but far from "against all logic."

    careful crash -- you may be contracting a bit of JI syndrome, which would be a shame for a poster of your quality. patience and perspective ... they are in short supply around here.

  16. #356
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    Quote Originally Posted by gaffneycatch View Post
    take no issue with this post, except for the bolded part.

    to think that Ducasse still has a reasonable chance of becoming a decent NFL player -- starting quality, or at least a very competent back up -- is not "against all logic" at this point in his career.

    without reading through the entire thread, it seems to me that most people who are not yet ready to label him beyond hope are pointing to the fact that A LOT of nfl players take 3 years or more to develop. Crash, I'm pretty sure you were around to read GJ&H's rants about Brian Thomas over the first five years or so of his career. but, as we know, he developed into a very serviceable player during the second half of his career -- and the NFL landscape is littered with examples like this.

    is it a disappointment that a second round pick hasn't developed more quickly? definitely. but does that mean that there's virtually no hope for him to ever become a decent player? no at all. i'd put VD's odds at about 50-50 at this point of not completely busting (never becoming the player i described above -- a starer, or quality backup). not great, but far from "against all logic."

    careful crash -- you may be contracting a bit of JI syndrome, which would be a shame for a poster of your quality. patience and perspective ... they are in short supply around here.
    I dunno - logic dictates that this guy will probably suck for the duration of his career. Can he make big strides either this year or next? Sure that's certainly a possibility. But, taking a look at the situation in its entirety, its far more likely that the talent evaluators missed on this one. He played against subpar competition in college and excelled. That, in conjunction with his measurables made some folks foam at the mouth.

    You put it at 50/50 - I put it at 70/30 against. I'd gladly give you 2 to 1 on your money that he ever becomes a starter in this league. That's hardly a doom and gloom perspective. I'm not particularly down trodden that he's not panning out - draft picks bust all the time. Missing on a 2nd rounder itsn't the end of the world. But, calling a spade a spade, the guy has not shown anything to make us think that he will ultimately progress to being a starter.

    I would be happy to be wrong and certainly concede its a possibility (I never said "virtually no hope"). But, I think its an even greater possibility that he continues to suck.

    The fact that Brian Thomas matured into a serviceable player that previously disappointed falls into the interesting and irrelevant category. There are dozens of examples of late bloomers. But, there thousands of examples of players who suck who then continue to suck.

  17. #357
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    Quote Originally Posted by crasherino View Post
    I dunno - logic dictates that this guy will probably suck for the duration of his career. Can he make big strides either this year or next? Sure that's certainly a possibility. But, taking a look at the situation in its entirety, its far more likely that the talent evaluators missed on this one. He played against subpar competition in college and excelled. That, in conjunction with his measurables made some folks foam at the mouth.

    You put it at 50/50 - I put it at 70/30 against. I'd gladly give you 2 to 1 on your money that he ever becomes a starter in this league. That's hardly a doom and gloom perspective. I'm not particularly down trodden that he's not panning out - draft picks bust all the time. Missing on a 2nd rounder itsn't the end of the world. But, calling a spade a spade, the guy has not shown anything to make us think that he will ultimately progress to being a starter.

    I would be happy to be wrong and certainly concede its a possibility (I never said "virtually no hope"). But, I think its an even greater possibility that he continues to suck.

    The fact that Brian Thomas matured into a serviceable player that previously disappointed falls into the interesting and irrelevant category. There are dozens of examples of late bloomers. But, there thousands of examples of players who suck who then continue to suck.
    not meaning to put words in your mouth -- i was trying to paraphrase "against all logic" when I said "virtually no hope."

    i would continue to say that in my opinion you're jumping the gun on this guy a bit. except that I don't think we're that far apart on our overall analysis of his chances. 70-30 against that he'll become a starter? I'd say that's not too far from 50-50 that he'll become a solid contributor (starter or quality back-up).

    so if i were to take that 2-1, do I win if he ever starts a game? i'd take that bet.

  18. #358
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    Brick was also drafted to play one position and one position only -- left tackle and blindside protector, arguably the toughest O-line position to learn.

    Brick's problem seemed to be more physical than mental; he's a pretty bright guy. Ducasse, without sounding too harsh, doesn't seem like the smartest man on the planet, though he does have the physical attributes.

    Comparing the two are apples and oranges, but I'll say Ducasse is closer to bust status than Brick ever was.

  19. #359
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    Quote Originally Posted by gaffneycatch View Post
    not meaning to put words in your mouth -- i was trying to paraphrase "against all logic" when I said "virtually no hope."

    i would continue to say that in my opinion you're jumping the gun on this guy a bit. except that I don't think we're that far apart on our overall analysis of his chances. 70-30 against that he'll become a starter? I'd say that's not too far from 50-50 that he'll become a solid contributor (starter or quality back-up).

    so if i were to take that 2-1, do I win if he ever starts a game? i'd take that bet.
    I wouldn't say one random start = "NFL starter". I was more referring to being a team's starter, but if he gets the job via injury and retains it, that would count, sure.

    Bottom line with this guy, he's a disappointment. He was drafted to start in year 1 (they cut Faneca the night after the draft) and the Jets got very lucky that Slauson was able to step up play somewhat competently over the past 2 years. Otherwise, it would have been an Adrian Clarke situation all over.

    Hopefully you're right and I am jumping the gun on him - I've been accused of worse . Any time I'm down on a Jets player I always hope that they prove me wrong. Would like nothing more than to eat my words about Vlad and have him be a strong starter for the next 10 years.

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