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Thread: We are not built to be a pure ground and pound team.....We just aren't

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kentucky Jet View Post
    sometimes its better to have your head buried in sand then up your butt! To base anything on the basis of one vanilla game is silly and a rush to judgement trying to look smart!
    You see, KJ the problem here is that its not only about a "vanilla preseason game".

    The regression and neglect of the offense has been a long time in coming, because Rex keeps proving that all he really cares about is the defense. He allowed Shotty (love him or hate him) full control, just as he's given Spranao total control. He has spent most of his tenure spending a great majority of his FA and draft capital improving the defense. With very little cap space to work with, everyone of the major FA's were on the defensive side.

    Its very difficult to be a "ground and pound" offense without a TE who can block effectively and right now we don't have one.

    We had an entire off season to try and fix out OL woes and nothing was done. Outside of Hill (who is a developmental player at best) the rest of the draft seemed to be devoted all to the defense.

    Our starting running back is OK, but is limited as a receiver and gets dinged a lot.. In many respects he's our version of Green-Ellis. He will get what's there but little more. But is that the kind of RB you want as your "bell cow"? And as for the rest, they are but a wing and a prayer. McKnight averaged 3.1 ypc last season rushing against teams geared up for the pass. Last night's respectable performance (not great) against the Bengal scrubs doesn't erase that taste...for me at least. And Powell has show nothing so far.

    And our WR situation isn't even as good as the RB situation. Our #1 WR had the 62nd best production in the league last season. There were 13 TE and 6 RB's who had more. Our #2 WR had less ten 50 catches in a 3 year college career and although he is a great physical prospect is he really someone you want to count on as your #2 WR. Then you have Kerley, who has a promising rookie campaign, but it was still less that 400 yds. And the rest isn't worth talking about. Do you really want to compare THAT group with Lloyd, Welker, Gronkowski and Hernandez? That's 4 guys who had more production that our most productive receiver. And there are several other receiver groups that are just as scary. We are a lot closer to having a receiver group as bad as the Dolphins than as good as the Pats.

    I appreciate your optimism KJ, but for your vision to come true about a dozen factors have to pan out perfectly and there can't be any injuries. Those are simple not good odds, man

    On the plus side, the Defense looks as potentially good as the offense looks bad, and they are going to have be 2000 Ravens good for us to have a chance at the playoffs. Given all the assets they've been given they should be good, and sadly that's all Rex seems to care about.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by detectivekimble View Post
    I'm convinced that Tannenbaum and Rex know nothing about offense.

    In two years, they've turned the DL from a thin and aging position to an absolutely loaded position. Pouha, Wilkerson, Devito, Dixon are all good players and Coples and Ellis clearly have the goods. In the same period, the OL has gone from great to ****.
    Richardson appears to be a good find too.

    They have done quite well with the defense.

    They have done equally as pooly with the offense.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by HardKnocks View Post
    On the plus side, the Defense looks as potentially good as the offense looks bad, and they are going to have be 2000 Ravens good for us to have a chance at the playoffs. Given all the assets they've been given they should be good, and sadly that's all Rex seems to care about.
    Agree with most of your post.

    As far as this last portion goes, unfortunately, we don't have a Jamal Lewis, a Priest Holmes or a Shannon Sharpe on the roster. Much less all three.

  4. #44
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    FIRE TANENBUM

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    Why are some people being so defensive?

    I said I think that we can be a pretty good offense, but it WILL NOT be via the traditional 09 Jets "Ground and Pound".......It simply cannot be based off of personnel it's that simple.

    I'm not knocking the Jets and I'm not basing this off of a preseason game.

    And I hope that article is right, because the combo of Rex-Sparano scares me a little bit just based off of quotes Ive read over the last few months from them (being too conservative-more so Rex)

    Obviously we'll see how it looks when the real games are played, should be interesting

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by King Koopa View Post
    Why are some people being so defensive?
    KJ keeps losing his binky.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by King Koopa View Post
    Just purely off of personnel, we will not/cannot be a ground and pound team (Think 09 Jets) and think we can control the game.....it ain't happening

    We have a stable of average RBs, below average blocking tight ends, and an average O-line......I'm sorry but that does not add up to a 09 Jets-style "ground and pound" team.

    I think our best chance to be a good and successful offense is just being balanced and putting all of our skill guys in position to do what they do best...... Sanchez taking a big step and letting him throw down the field a lot more will be key, Using all 3 Rbs with what they do best, and getting creative with Tebow/Spread offense when the situation calls for it......We just need to mix it up and play the hot hand (Not purely Tebow/Sanchez but playmakers as we have a lot of different guys to spread the ball around to)

    We have the chance to be a pretty good offense, but my biggest fear is Rex and Sparano playing too conservatively and trying to establish the ground and pound at all costs.....We will not be successful with this strategy IMO
    Sanchez isn't ready for that kind of attack. Schotty already tried that last season and it turned out to be disasterous.

    You're never as good as you think and it's never as bad as you fear. That's the phrase that comes to mind. The OL woes look bad right now, I'll admit it. But add 1 OL, maybe a RT, and things could easily solidify. The foundation of a great OL is already there. Mangold, a rebound year for Brick, and Moore are the basics for a very good OL.

    No, I still think Tanny could add another OL and we could easily go 10-6 and secure a playoff spot as a wildcard.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mainejet View Post
    Sanchez isn't ready for that kind of attack. Schotty already tried that last season and it turned out to be disasterous.

    You're never as good as you think and it's never as bad as you fear. That's the phrase that comes to mind. The OL woes look bad right now, I'll admit it. But add 1 OL, maybe a RT, and things could easily solidify. The foundation of a great OL is already there. Mangold, a rebound year for Brick, and Moore are the basics for a very good OL.

    No, I still think Tanny could add another OL and we could easily go 10-6 and secure a playoff spot as a wildcard.
    Schotty did not try it last season at all......we threw a lot some games, but we never went deep or rolled Sanchez out of the pocket nearly enough

    We threw tons of little dip**** passes and the defenses jumped our routes

    We do need to run the ball successfully, but let sanchez loose as well......As in let him air it out a little

    What did we have, 4 passes over 30+ yards in the air all of last season?

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by King Koopa View Post
    Schotty did not try it last season at all......we threw a lot some games, but we never went deep or rolled Sanchez out of the pocket nearly enough

    We threw tons of little dip**** passes and the defenses jumped our routes

    We do need to run the ball successfully, but let sanchez loose as well......As in let him air it out a little

    What did we have, 4 passes over 30+ yards in the air all of last season?
    I agree with the sentiment here ... But you have to attribute some of the dump offs to Sanchez's poor decision making ... He was so scared to make any sort of mistake, the deep game all but evaporated from his repertoire.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kentucky Jet View Post
    You are basing all your negativity( can not and will not) on a vanilla preseason game with no game planning and no threat of a wildcat play or two and an unsettled OL.

    I say lets wait to see what we have after 4 preseason games. The hysterical doom and gloom crowd failed to see the physical play of AUSTIN HOWARD at both RT and LT. They never saw thw play at ROG of Schlauderaff and the development of Vlad at LOG and Slauson playing the center position. Perhaps we have the makings of a pretty dominant OL . But lets not rush to judgement based on the dysfunctional Ol of last year and one vanilla preseason game!

    re the attack on our RBS. Err it takes time for the run game to develop with so many new OLmen playing yet McKnight;s play should have quited you down! If it didn't it is on you. Powell has done well at practices and shown pleanty. I am not sold on Greene as a starter! I love him coming off the bench when the other team is physicall tired and he kills them! The run game is developing and it will get better as chemistry with the OL develops and we game plan for it!

    I agree wity you about the poor blocking of Killer-Keller and Cumberland! They hurt us on Friday night for sure. Yet you failed to mention that Tarren Lloyd is a blocking TE from UTAH STATE who can run routes pretty well and has decent hands but average speed. He is being developed and played sparingly Friday night. It will take time for him to fully develop enough to show what he can do.

    But I look for waiver wire pickups to bolster the TE position re a BLOCKING TE who can catch! The book is still open on EPPS and Hayden Smith.

    I disagree with you saying we can not be a GROUND and POUND TEAM. I do agree that we MUST allow Sanchez to throw deep just as long as he does not throw it to opposing DEs. I think he is going to have a monster year based on his determination to be great and the work he put into it at the gym in the off-season. I see Tebow as a good compliment to Mark and BOTH making us a good offense! Last but not least I agree that Sparano and Rex must mix plays up to keep the other team guessing and to use our game breakers in a great way. I se HILL going deep and Mark hitting him a lot more then we were used to last year!

    Therefore I am hoping for a very good season and fail to share in any negativity at the present time! I love the DEFENSE as-is. I see Davis playing more and more over Scott! I see Maybin plaing more and more over Thomas and Pace will eventually be replaced by RICKY SAPP if he can stay healthy! Add that speed to our dynamic defense and it should quiet the Doom and Gloomers forthwith!
    Thank you.

    Dear God, please dump this thread

  11. #51
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    A valid point is raised here.

    IMO, we simply do not have the personnel to effectively run the ground and pound. We dont have fanaca and woody anymore. Thomas Jones was crucial to the success of that system in 09.

    I feel like we should be trying to build an offense to the squad we put on the field, rather and force a philosophy upon the team.

    That being said, i am not sure what type of system our current offensive unit would be suited to run.... West coast maybe?

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by ListerFiend View Post
    A valid point is raised here.

    IMO, we simply do not have the personnel to effectively run the ground and pound. We dont have fanaca and woody anymore. Thomas Jones was crucial to the success of that system in 09.

    I feel like we should be trying to build an offense to the squad we put on the field, rather and force a philosophy upon the team.

    That being said, i am not sure what type of system our current offensive unit would be suited to run.... West coast maybe?
    The most important thing for a WCO is a QB that is accurate and reads defenses well (think Chad Pennington before his injuries). Sanchez has shown none of that. You also need precise route running WR and continuity between QB & WR. Also helpful are RB who catch the ball well out of the backfield. Jets don't have any of that.

    We do have a couple of TE who can catch (Keller and Cumberland). They can't block that well but offensively they're solid.

    I'd say the Jets are currently best suited to play a base 2 TE system. Ideally the team would add a blocking TE to achieve this but I'd hope they could come up with one at cut-downs. Two TE would cover up our OL issues and our lack of depth at WR. It would get the most talented guys on the field all at the same time, which should help. It would also give us a good formation to run out of on a regular basis.

    However two TE would mean lots of defenders in the box. Sanchez would have to make teams pay by hitting Holmes or Hill on deep routes a few times a game. Sanchez's arm is definitely good enough for the occasional long ball.
    Last edited by lageman4ever; 08-12-2012 at 08:53 PM.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by FijiJet View Post
    Thank you.

    Dear God, please dump this thread


    You can disagree but I'm not sure what exactly I said is all that crazy

    For the record, I do believe we will need to run the ball effectively but we will not be able to force our will on opponents like we did maybe in 09......We will need to hit more long pass plays with Sanchez and have Tebow work his magic to make up for it

    It's not neccasarily a bad thing

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by King Koopa View Post
    Schotty did not try it last season at all......we threw a lot some games, but we never went deep or rolled Sanchez out of the pocket nearly enough

    We threw tons of little dip**** passes and the defenses jumped our routes

    We do need to run the ball successfully, but let sanchez loose as well......As in let him air it out a little

    What did we have, 4 passes over 30+ yards in the air all of last season?
    You've definitely got that right. Going long with Schotty was a lost play. So were roll outs/play action.

    That said, first of all, you cannot sell play action if you cannot create at least a threat of a running game. You cannot go long unless you are generating some sort of offense, the defense will sit on those routes.

    But Schotty did release Sanchez much more than in the past. It had been said that he "took the handcuffs off Sanchez". Well, based on the results, I think they should have kept Sanchez cuffed.

    Now, I'll leave the blame game up to you to decide. I think it was Sanchez as the primary culprit with an assist from Schotty.

    The fact still remains, he gave Sanchez much more decision making power at the LOS and Sanchez responded with 26 turnovers. That's not good.

    But like I said, I believe the Jets recipe for success is with a good running game and great defense. That is nothing different from in the past. We should only trust Sanchez more if we find out he's understanding the new offense well and making good decisions with the football when he's given chances. He hasn't shown anything to indicate he should be trusted right now.

    I'm hopeful Tanny gets another OL, that will help immensely. I'm optimistic that will happen.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mainejet View Post
    You've definitely got that right. Going long with Schotty was a lost play. So were roll outs/play action.

    That said, first of all, you cannot sell play action if you cannot create at least a threat of a running game. You cannot go long unless you are generating some sort of offense, the defense will sit on those routes.

    But Schotty did release Sanchez much more than in the past. It had been said that he "took the handcuffs off Sanchez". Well, based on the results, I think they should have kept Sanchez cuffed.

    Now, I'll leave the blame game up to you to decide. I think it was Sanchez as the primary culprit with an assist from Schotty.

    The fact still remains, he gave Sanchez much more decision making power at the LOS and Sanchez responded with 26 turnovers. That's not good.

    But like I said, I believe the Jets recipe for success is with a good running game and great defense. That is nothing different from in the past. We should only trust Sanchez more if we find out he's understanding the new offense well and making good decisions with the football when he's given chances. He hasn't shown anything to indicate he should be trusted right now.

    I'm hopeful Tanny gets another OL, that will help immensely. I'm optimistic that will happen.
    I agree with all of this for the most part......if we can't run the ball effectively we won't win.

    I like our stable of RBs they all do some different things well......But if you wanna run a true "ground and pound" you don't have a Wayne hunter on your team starting, you don't have zero blocking tight ends, and you do have a bruising workhorse feature back IMO

    As for the Sanchez handcuffs thing......it's a common misconception that the media would like you to believe.......Yeah we threw the ball a lot more, but who cares when all of the passes are check downs, 4 yard outs, and 7 yard comebacks all damn game long???

    I want us to roll Sanchez out of the pocket way more to hit some deeper crossing routes, and try for some long bombs and deep posts off of playaction.......That would be taking the handcuffs off....Something we have yet to see

  16. #56
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    I think what is causing a rift on this thread is what we each perceive as "ground and pound", and specifically a "true" one. I don't believe we will be the type of offense that can say "we are going to run the ball on this play and there is nothing you can do to stop us", but at the same time it can be an offense that is predicated on the run as long as we can find ways to keep defenses honest and respect the pass. Keep the strong safety out of the box (deep passes to Hill). I almost wish Rex did not use the term "ground and pound" because it gives a certain connotation that fans latch on to. I don't really believe this will be the case with this offense. As I said before, I will wait and see but I hope Sparano uses everyone to the best of their abilities and the offense does not get "labeled" as any type. Let's just get the ball down field and into the end zone by whatever means necessary.

  17. #57
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    We started last year with more of a passing offense and people have the wrong idea that we switched back to a more run-oriented approach because Sanchez struggled.

    but Sanchez didn't struggle. in those first 3 games he was completing 63% of his passes and averaging 300 yards with a passer rating close to 90, all well above his career averages. he made some mistakes/bad throws (pick 6 vs Dallas, int in end zone vs Oakland) but the overall results were very positive.

    the problem was the pass protection, Sanchez got sacked 9 times in those first 3 game (4 each by DAL and OAK) and with Mangold out the Ravens nearly killed him in Week 4. after that it was when Rex decided to go with a more ground-based attack. but saying that Sanchez couldn't handle the extra duties is flat-out false.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rumrunner View Post
    I think what is causing a rift on this thread is what we each perceive as "ground and pound", and specifically a "true" one. I don't believe we will be the type of offense that can say "we are going to run the ball on this play and there is nothing you can do to stop us", but at the same time it can be an offense that is predicated on the run as long as we can find ways to keep defenses honest and respect the pass. Keep the strong safety out of the box (deep passes to Hill). I almost wish Rex did not use the term "ground and pound" because it gives a certain connotation that fans latch on to. I don't really believe this will be the case with this offense. As I said before, I will wait and see but I hope Sparano uses everyone to the best of their abilities and the offense does not get "labeled" as any type. Let's just get the ball down field and into the end zone by whatever means necessary.
    Good post man.....pretty close to what I was getting at

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