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Thread: We're Doing This The Wrong Way, It's Too Late, Just Deal With It

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by patman View Post
    The one thing I agree with SAR is that Rex must place a lot of pressure on tanny to get him defensive players as that is what makes him comfortable.
    In the last 3 years

    Wilkenson, Wilson, Coples, all the #1s on D.

    Scott and Cro as big money picks on D- plus 4 safeties at various prices.

    Only Holmes and Lt on Offense. While losing Edwards, Cotch, Faneca, Jones, Washington and Woody.

    But this does allow Rex to say he is the best def coach.
    Since the Rex Ryan era they have definitely placed more emphasis and value into the Offense with the use of their draft picks over the defense.

    OFFENSE

    YEAR/ROUND/PLAYER

    2009/1/Sanchez
    2009/3/Greene
    2009/6/Slauson
    2010/2/Ducasse
    2010/4/J.McKnight
    2010/5/Connor
    2011/4/Powell
    2011/5/Kerley
    2011/7/McElroy
    2011/7/S.McKnight
    2012/2/Hill
    2012/6/Ganaway
    2012/6/Griffin
    2012/7/White
    Traded 2010 3rd and 5th round picks for WR Edwards
    Traded 2011 5th round pick for Holmes
    Traded unconditional pick for OL Schlauderaff
    Jets also traded up to select players like Sanchez and Greene.


    DEFENSE

    YEAR/ROUND/PLAYER


    2009 - 0
    2010/1/Wilson
    2011/1/Wilkerson
    2011/3/Ellis
    2012/1/Coples
    2012/3/Davis
    2012/6/Bush
    2012/7/Allen
    Traded 2011 2nd round pick for CB Cromarite
    Traded 2009 5th round pick and 2010 4th round pick (Jets recieved 2010 5th round pick back) for CB Sheppard



    BREAKDOWN BY ROUND

    Offense/Defense

    1st round - 1/3
    2nd round - 2/1
    3rd round - 2/2
    4th round - 2/1
    5th round - 4/0

    Overall the Jets have used 14 draft picks on Offense and 7 on Defense (18 on Offense counting picks traded, 9 on Defense). While they have used more on D in the first round, they have used significantly more on O in rounds 2-5. If you want to talk Free Agnecy additions most forget about the addition of Tom Moore, former Indy Offensive Coordinator, who was brought in last year to boost the Red Zone Offense and he did the job he was hired for no question.

    If you want to say the Jets havent drafted well on the offensive side of the ball thats fine, but in no way have they ignored the offense when it comes to using their picks. Please dont let facts get in the way of an agenda.
    Last edited by PaPZ187; 08-19-2012 at 12:27 PM.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by lageman4ever View Post
    I don't think Rex has quite evolved into being a head coach yet. He still thinks of himself as a top DC. All his top draft choices have been defense. He constantly talks defense to the press. And he even admits that he hasn't been involved that much in the offensive game planning.

    Rex doesn't strike me as the brightest bulb in the bunch. He spouts his mouth off too often, often saying ridiculous things. He's an emotional, rah-rah guy who just wants his unit (the defense) to succeed. He's not the cool, intellectual head coach that can rationally assess the entire team and act accordingly. As such the players love him but he has slowly killed this team.

    Lets look at the evidence: the team peaked in 2009 with the players Mangini chose. Since then every year has gotten worse:

    2009 > 2010 > 2011 > (and likely) 2012

    As Rex's influence on personnel and draft choices has increased, the team 's performance has decreased. And that's because Rex is just not a good head coach.
    Lageman, I've always thought you were an intelligent posters. But, while I don't necessarily disagree with your post overall (not saying I agree...but I think some of your arguments are valid), a couple of your major points are just dead wrong.

    You say ALL Rex's top draft picks were offense, while his FIRST TWO draft picks as a HC were offense (Sanchez and Green). Ducasse and Hill were also second rounders. So, it's just inaccurate for you and others to keep repeating that all his high drafts picks have been defensive players.

    2009 was not better than 2010. In 2010 we had 11 wins in the regular season, whereas we had 9 in 2009. We made the AFCG both years, but in 2010 beat the Colts and Pats in playoffs...superior wins, IMO, to the Bengals and Chargers in 2009. We also had a more potent offense in 2010. In what way, exactly, was the 2009 season superior to 2010?

    If you guys want to discuss whether Rex is suited to be a head coach, or whether he and Tanny should have paid more attention to the offense, fine...valid discussions, and I also have my concerns. But doing it by making false arguments lowers the whole discussion.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaPZ187 View Post
    You do make some good points, but we definitely did not peak in 2009.....2010 was a much better season/team and in large part because of key players who were added to the team since the Rex era in Cromartie, Edwards, Holmes, LT, Jason Taylor, Sanchez, Greene, Bart Scott, Leonhard, Slauson.

    We were a 9 win team, and probably would of been an 8 win team if Indy played their starters week 16 in 2009.......2010 we won 11 games and beat arguably the two greatest QBs of this generation on their own turf in the playoffs.

    Yes, a good amount of our top contributors for the 2009 and 2010 teams were here prior to Rex, but cant deny 2010 team was better than 2009 and alot of key additions were added during that span as well.
    2010 >>>> 2009
    +1...just posted the same thing.

  4. #64
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    I'm a defensive guy, but things have to change. This isn't 2000, you can't win with Trent Dilfer. BB adapted from a defensive mindset to a offensive mindset & the results are there.

  5. #65
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    Papz, you are acting as if a 5th rounder is equal to a 1st rounder. If that is the case then find me a team that would trade their 2013 1st rounder for our 2013 fifth rounder.

    Sanchez was an organizational decision. Not a coaches decision or a GMs decision.

    Since then we have chosen 3 defensive first rounders. 2010, 2011, 2012. And in each year our offense has gotten worse. Not saying I am don't like the picks b.c I love Wilk and Coples but a first rounder is much more significant than a fourth or fifth rounder.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaPZ187 View Post
    Since the Rex Ryan era they have definitely placed more emphasis and value into the Offense with the use of their draft picks over the defense.

    OFFENSE

    YEAR/ROUND/PLAYER

    2009/1/Sanchez
    2009/3/Greene
    2009/6/Slauson
    2010/2/Ducasse
    2010/4/J.McKnight
    2010/5/Connor
    2011/4/Powell
    2011/5/Kerley
    2011/7/McElroy
    2011/7/S.McKnight
    2012/2/Hill
    2012/6/Ganaway
    2012/6/Griffin
    2012/7/White
    Traded 2010 3rd and 5th round picks for WR Edwards
    Traded 2011 5th round pick for Holmes
    Traded unconditional pick for OL Schlauderaff
    Jets also traded up to select players like Sanchez and Greene.


    DEFENSE

    YEAR/ROUND/PLAYER


    2009 - 0
    2010/1/Wilson
    2011/1/Wilkerson
    2011/3/Ellis
    2012/1/Coples
    2012/3/Davis
    2012/6/Bush
    2012/7/Allen
    Traded 2011 2nd round pick for CB Cromarite
    Traded 2009 5th round pick and 2010 4th round pick (Jets recieved 2010 5th round pick back) for CB Sheppard



    BREAKDOWN BY ROUND

    Offense/Defense

    1st round - 1/3
    2nd round - 2/1
    3rd round - 2/2
    4th round - 2/1
    5th round - 4/0

    Overall the Jets have used 14 draft picks on Offense and 7 on Defense (18 on Offense counting picks traded, 9 on Defense). While they have used more on D in the first round, they have used significantly more on O in rounds 2-5. If you want to talk Free Agnecy additions most forget about the addition of Tom Moore, former Indy Offensive Coordinator, who was brought in last year to boost the Red Zone Offense and he did the job he was hired for no question.

    If you want to say the Jets havent drafted well on the offensive side of the ball thats fine, but in no way have they ignored the offense when it comes to using their picks. Please dont let facts get in the way of an agenda.
    Thanks for doing the research. I've been saying the same thing -- though just talking about the first few rounds. You've now provided the empirical evidence that the whole premise that D has been over-emphasized in the draft is inaccurate. I'd also dispute that it's been over-emphasized in free agency or trades. As you say, it could be argued that they've chosen better players on the defensive side of the ball, but not that they've put more resources into it.
    Last edited by gaffneycatch; 08-19-2012 at 12:55 PM.

  7. #67
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    One could argue that Jets haven't drafted a playmaker on offense since Rex showed up.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by DDNYjets View Post
    Papz you are acting as if a 5th rounder is equal to a 1st rounder.

    Sanchez was an organizational decision. Not a coaches decision.

    Since then we have chosen 3 defensive first rounders. 2010, 2011, 2012. And in each year our offense has gotten worse. Not saying I am don't like the picks b.c I love Wilk and Coples but a first rounder is much more significant than a fourth or fifth rounder.
    They've all been "organizational" decisions, and Rex loved Sanchez.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by jxc View Post
    One could argue that Jets haven't drafted a playmaker on offense since Rex showed up.
    Who would argue that?

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by gaffneycatch View Post
    Lageman, I've always thought you were an intelligent posters. But, while I don't necessarily disagree with your post overall (not saying I agree...but I think some of your arguments are valid), a couple of your major points are just dead wrong.

    You say ALL Rex's top draft picks were offense, while his FIRST TWO draft picks as a HC were offense (Sanchez and Green). Ducasse and Hill were also second rounders. So, it's just inaccurate for you and others to keep repeating that all his high drafts picks have been defensive players.

    2009 was not better than 2010. In 2010 we had 11 wins in the regular season, whereas we had 9 in 2009. We made the AFCG both years, but in 2010 beat the Colts and Pats in playoffs...superior wins, IMO, to the Bengals and Chargers in 2009. We also had a more potent offense in 2010. In what way, exactly, was the 2009 season superior to 2010?

    If you guys want to discuss whether Rex is suited to be a head coach, or whether he and Tanny should have paid more attention to the offense, fine...valid discussions, and I also have my concerns. But doing it by making false arguments lowers the whole discussion.
    Yeah I agree.....I have no problem with people's opinions whether I agree or not.....just don't twist and/or ignore facts to make your opinions.

    In no way 2009 was better than the 2010 team and Rex and company have NOT ignored the offensive side of the ball when it comes to draft picks and free agency.

    Can Rex be more hands on when it comes to the offense? Ofcourse. But in no way has he ignored the personal on that side of the ball since he has been our head coach.

    Sent from my LG-P999

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by gaffneycatch View Post
    Thanks for doing the research. I've been saying the same thing -- though just talking about the first few rounds. You've now provided the empirical evidence that the whole premise that D has been over-emphasized in the draft is inaccurate. I'd also argue that it's been over-emphasized in free agency or trades. As you say, it could be argued that they've chosen better players on the defensive side of the ball, but not that they've put more resources into it.
    I just think its clear the Jets have no clue on evaluating offensive personnel.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by southparkcpa View Post
    Who would argue that?
    Somebody, somewhere. It's hard to know what other fans see sometimes.
    "Sanchize", "Sanchez projected to have a QB rating of 128 by end of the season in 2011", "ESPN's QBR rating system is garbage because Sanchez is at the bottom every week", "Fire Schotty", etc.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by gaffneycatch View Post
    They've all been "organizational" decisions, and Rex loved Sanchez.
    When you take a QB high in the draft the owner has a say that is what I mean by "organizational decision". Because that can have a drastic effect on the franchise. It changes the direction of the team. Sure Rex liked him, but even if he didn't we were still going to draft Sanchez.

    Rex has too much control over the draft. We have used our highest picks on defensive players. The value of a first round pick is much higher than a fourth or fifth round pick. That is why your argument is flawed. Not every pick is equal, therefore we cannot just add up the total number of picks. The picks are weighted.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by DDNYjets View Post
    Papz, you are acting as if a 5th rounder is equal to a 1st rounder. If that is the case then find me a team that would trade their 2013 1st rounder for our 2013 fifth rounder.

    Sanchez was an organizational decision. Not a coaches decision or a GMs decision.

    Since then we have chosen 3 defensive first rounders. 2010, 2011, 2012. And in each year our offense has gotten worse. Not saying I am don't like the picks b.c I love Wilk and Coples but a first rounder is much more significant than a fourth or fifth rounder.
    No ofcourse I understand the value of a 1st rounder is much greater than even a 2nd rounder, let alone a 5th. My point is that in NO WAY has this regime ignored one side of the ball as oppose to the other when it comes to spending and using draft picks.

    The Jets have only selected in the top 10 once since 2009 (and they had to trade up to do it) which they used on Offense. The other 3 first rounders were mid to late picks. They also traded up in the second round for Hill, and took Ducasse a couple years ago in the 2nd when most were begging for them to draft a pass rusher with that pick.


    Sent from my LG-P999

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by gaffneycatch View Post
    Lageman, I've always thought you were an intelligent posters. But, while I don't necessarily disagree with your post overall (not saying I agree...but I think some of your arguments are valid), a couple of your major points are just dead wrong.

    You say ALL Rex's top draft picks were offense, while his FIRST TWO draft picks as a HC were offense (Sanchez and Green). Ducasse and Hill were also second rounders. So, it's just inaccurate for you and others to keep repeating that all his high drafts picks have been defensive players.

    Rex's last three #1's have been defense. I don't know how much credit we should give Rex for picking Sanchez since he had just been hired a few months before the draft. But the recent trend for his #1 picks, the guys with the most talent and expectations for helping the team, has definitely been defensively oriented in the last 3 drafts.



    Quote Originally Posted by gaffneycatch View Post
    2009 was not better than 2010. In 2010 we had 11 wins in the regular season, whereas we had 9 in 2009. We made the AFCG both years, but in 2010 beat the Colts and Pats in playoffs...superior wins, IMO, to the Bengals and Chargers in 2009. We also had a more potent offense in 2010. In what way, exactly, was the 2009 season superior to 2010?

    That's a fair comment. I was thinking in terms of our rushing offense when I wrote that. Jets were #1 rushing team in 2009 and dropped slightly to #5 in 2010. But W/L is more important as you and PaPZ187 pointed out. And these were some wins over quality teams (as opposed to 2009 when we snuck into the playoffs). So 2010 > 2009.

    But again I'll state the recent trend is a team that is regressing offensively. And I wouldn't be surprised to see us take a nose dive in 2012 even worse than last season. I hope it doesn't happen but that's what I'm expecting, barring some kind of miracle.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt39 View Post
    I just think its clear the Jets have no clue on evaluating offensive personnel.
    +1 this is something I can agree with or atleast respect as an opinion......I just can't sit here and listen to some saying the Jets have ignored the offense when its just not true.

    Hopefully they can find a cap casualty to atleast challenge Hunter for the RT spot. I am anxious to see how the offense looks a month into the season under a new coordinator as well.

    Sent from my LG-P999

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by copernicus View Post
    Even last night, has deplorable as the JETS looked, Rex found a way to pat himself on the back about the defense at half time and then in his post game presser leaving his starting QB out to dry. It is disgusting what the JETS have done to Sanchez' career. Its more the JETS organization's fault than lack of talent on Sanchez' part........
    I missed it, what did he say about Sanchez?

    It's pretty clear the Jets have given up on Sanchez and are just biding time now.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by lageman4ever View Post
    Rex's last three #1's have been defense. I don't know how much credit we should give Rex for picking Sanchez since he had just been hired a few months before the draft. But the recent trend for his #1 picks, the guys with the most talent and expectations for helping the team, has definitely been defensively oriented in the last 3 drafts.






    That's a fair comment. I was thinking in terms of our rushing offense when I wrote that. Jets were #1 rushing team in 2009 and dropped slightly to #5 in 2010. But W/L is more important as you and PaPZ187 pointed out. And these were some wins over quality teams (as opposed to 2009 when we snuck into the playoffs). So 2010 > 2009.

    But again I'll state the recent trend is a team that is regressing offensively. And I wouldn't be surprised to see us take a nose dive in 2012 even worse than last season. I hope it doesn't happen but that's what I'm expecting, barring some kind of miracle.
    Rex may not get a chance to draft anymore offensive players with their first pick. If this year goes up in flames, 2012 draft could be his last as a jets head coach.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by DDNYjets View Post
    Rex has too much control over the draft. We have used our highest picks on defensive players. The value of a first round pick is much higher than a fourth or fifth round pick. That is why your argument is flawed. Not every pick is equal, therefore we cannot just add up the total number of picks. The picks are weighted.
    I suspect this might be why Clinkscales is gone.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by lageman4ever View Post
    Rex's last three #1's have been defense. I don't know how much credit we should give Rex for picking Sanchez since he had just been hired a few months before the draft. But the recent trend for his #1 picks, the guys with the most talent and expectations for helping the team, has definitely been defensively oriented in the last 3 drafts.






    That's a fair comment. I was thinking in terms of our rushing offense when I wrote that. Jets were #1 rushing team in 2009 and dropped slightly to #5 in 2010. But W/L is more important as you and PaPZ187 pointed out. And these were some wins over quality teams (as opposed to 2009 when we snuck into the playoffs). So 2010 > 2009.

    But again I'll state the recent trend is a team that is regressing offensively. And I wouldn't be surprised to see us take a nose dive in 2012 even worse than last season. I hope it doesn't happen but that's what I'm expecting, barring some kind of miracle.
    +1 No question they need to make offense the priority going into next offseason and almost have no choice but to go offense (and probably OLine) in round one.

    Im still hopeful that they can take a step in the right direction this year under Sparano ........ but something has to be done about Hunter/RT before any real progress will be made IMO.

    Sent from my LG-P999

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