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Thread: We're Doing This The Wrong Way, It's Too Late, Just Deal With It

  1. #21
    It's hard to add pieces to offense and defense in just one off-season. You can tell Rex's pride was hurt a lot on how the defense played last season. Sure it was ranked #5, but we all knew it was not a top 5 defense. So improving it all around, from Coples, Landry, Bell & depth wise was his #1 priority. I know it's preseason but the defense looks like it's in mid-season form already.

    The big offensive move (besides Tebow), was replacing Schotty with Sparano. Listen, we all thought that was the main issue with the offense too, simply getting rid of Schotty, but maybe it's not. I really don't know if you can win in today's NFL playing this style of football. You're not going to win games 6-3.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by shevys View Post
    Woody retired, dumping Faneca was a good move. So not really true, but you have a good point.
    What does it matter ow or why they left? They are gone and not have been replaced by equal or better talents.

  3. #23
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    The biggest issue I have with Rex is that it really seems like he WANTS to make it all about the defense. Its almost like he thinks if he has this sh***y offense and great defense, and then wins some games, it somehow solidifies him as some defensive guru. He can point out and say. "look, I won with this offense, I told you I am the greatest defensive coach".

  4. #24
    I'm not a huge fan of Rex or Tanny but we are installing a new O and we don't have our No. 1 WR on the field and the OL is learning a new blocking scheme. I would wait for 3 or 4 regular season games before writtng off the O or the Jets team.

    Each season represents a new team that has to develop and get better over the course of the season. Teams that become power houses late often look bad early. It's still very early.

    This is a big season for the Jets management, no AFC finals to fall back on, no Shotty to blame, it's all on for Rex, Tanny and the personal department. Either get it done or get out.

  5. #25

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB1089 View Post
    We WANT to Ground and Pound with:


    An offensive line that is average, at best, in the run game with no ability to run to the outside without help from extra linemen.

    A bad punter that can't hold the fort in the field position battle when the running game can't get going.

    A bad kicker that can't make 40+ yarders with consistency.

    A stable of backs that are incapable of breaking long runs. You're not going to piece together 6-8, 4-5 yard runs on a drive to score a TD.
    Exactly. Rex inherited a good "ground and pound" team but since he and Tanny have done nothing to maintain it. Our personnel does not fit our "philosophy". Actually, our personnel doesn't fit any philosophy. We are in limbo on offense. On our OL half the guys are road graders, half the guys are athletic. Our QB can run PA but we can't run the ball to keep teams honest. We used to have great blocking WRs in Cotch and Edwards. Now we have none. At least last season we had Plax, who for all his struggles between the 20s was great in the RZ and blocked his ass off. Not to mention losing LT.

  7. #27
    I do think that there is a point to be made with defense.

    Is it really that important to be 3rd vs 7th or even 10th?

    The Jets already have a top 10 defense as long as Revis is playing.

    Rex is still drafting defense whenever he can. Any coach can build a great defense when you keep spending on defense.

    The key to Rex's success on defense is Revis though. If Revis goes down, that defense gets a lot less fearsome.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by sec.101row23 View Post
    The biggest issue I have with Rex is that it really seems like he WANTS to make it all about the defense. Its almost like he thinks if he has this sh***y offense and great defense, and then wins some games, it somehow solidifies him as some defensive guru. He can point out and say. "look, I won with this offense, I told you I am the greatest defensive coach".
    No question, a lot of this comes from ego and a total disrespect for offense at all. The guy is a great DC so it stands to reason that he'd have a disdain for offense in general, but bigger than that is that he admits time-and-time-again that he just doesn't want to deal with it.

    We don't have an offensive guru on the team and we don't have an OC that has the leverage to fight Rex and win Tannenbaum's support. Shotty was weak and Tony is new.

    SAR I

  9. #29
    I sincerely believe that Rex is calling the shots on drafting and personnel. He might be a very good DC but he has very little knowledge of pro-personnel. How many players has the blow hard anointed as the next great one only to have that player be average at best.

    I believe this because Tannenbaum is a bean counter who really knows about as much as you and I do about football players.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by JB1089 View Post
    We WANT to Ground and Pound with:

    An offensive line that is average, at best, in the run game with no ability to run to the outside without help from extra linemen.

    A bad punter that can't hold the fort in the field position battle when the running game can't get going.

    A bad kicker that can't make 40+ yarders with consistency.

    A stable of backs that are incapable of breaking long runs. You're not going to piece together 6-8, 4-5 yard runs on a drive to score a TD.
    And it's compounded by the fact that opposing DC's know our QB is hamstrung by a lack of time and targets, so they just stuff the line, stop the run, and let the passing game self-destruct.

    No one fears anyone on our offense. We're an easy out.

    SAR I

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by SAR I View Post
    We committed to a rookie head coach to cut his teeth on our team.

    This head coach is playing all the low percentages:

    - Trying to win a Super Bowl on defense, only been done 3 times out of 46 tries.

    - Trying to win games via ball control on the ground in a league that's been optimized to win in the air passing.

    - Trying to manage a team as three individual units with three different Assistant HC's with different styles who wind up pushing the team apart moreso than bringing it together.

    - Trying to be a friendly "players coach" rather than a disciplinarian.

    - Going crazy building a shut-down defense while virtually ignoring the offense.

    If you look at it big-picture, this "Shut Down D" and "Ground & Pound" strategy has never worked. In '09 we came close, the D dominated, but still we only managed a mediocre 9-7 record, didn't set the league on fire with our running game. In '10 our defense showed a lot of weakness, gave up a lot of 4th quarter leads, and saw our offense get us 4 improbable comeback wins in the air, not on the ground. Once in the playoffs, we played smart and made enough big plays to get us halfway to glory, but again only one game really worked on the "Shut Down D" and "Ground & Pound" strategy. The rest came from last minute heriocs, some timely interceptions, and some air ball. Just like the two regular seasons that preceded it, the two postseasons were high on improv, low on the original concept.

    It seems that the price we pay for sustaining a great defense is that we wind up with a paltry offense. Sound familiar? Look at the Baltimore Ravens, look at the Tampa Bay Bucs, look at the Chicago Bears. All won Super Bowls when all the pieces aligned finally, but for the better part of a decade each suffered with pathetic offenses starved of talent to fuel stellar defenses. Boring games, fans with nothing to cheer for but the defense, all-pro defenders pissed at the offense, quarterbacks that looked clueless, constant three-and-outs, nail-biters 24/7.

    I'm not calling for anyone's head, but facts are facts. Until Ryan and Tannenbaum decide we're a different type of team and are willing to sacrifice defensive depth for offensive strength this is what we're going to have to deal with. "Playing Jet Football" is a low-percentage play and it's what we've chosen to do.

    SAR I
    Again, brilliant analysis. Sar my friend, it seems like you and I and the few other objective Jets fans are finally getting through to the Kool Aiders.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by patman View Post
    The one thing I agree with SAR is that Rex must place a lot of pressure on tanny to get him defensive players as that is what makes him comfortable.
    In the last 3 years

    Wilkenson, Wilson, Coples, all the #1s on D.

    Scott and Cro as big money picks on D- plus 4 safeties at various prices.

    Only Holmes and Lt on Offense. While losing Edwards, Cotch, Faneca, Jones, Washington and Woody.

    But this does allow Rex to say he is the best def coach.
    First round picks all on D? Does the name Mark Sanchez ring any bells? We gave up most of Rex's first draft for the guy.

    Then we traded up for Greene in the same draft.

    Other high picks on O include Ducasse in the second, Hill in the second.

    Trade for Edwards. Trade for Holmes. Trade for Tebow. LT as free agent. Plax as free agent.

    Not addressing the RT situation has hurt us, and will continue to hurt us -- no question. But I just don't see that we've neglected the O in favor of the D. The truth is more complicated than that.

    a) we started Rex's tenure in a better situation on D than O. When Rex arrived we lacked big time playmakers on O. We had a solid line and run game that masked those issues, but he was limited in what he had to work with. Our D, on the other hand, with Harris, Revis, a solid line, and decent linebacking corps, was in better shape.

    b) The last three seasons we've been grooming a young QB. Sanchez has shown a lot of good things for an NFL beginner, and can be a solid starter IMO, but there's no question that the offense was limited by his inexperience.

    c) The acquisitions on D -- Cro, Scott, draft picks -- have tended to work out much better than those on O. Not tremendously so. Scott hasn't dazzled. Holmes and Edwards were pretty solid pick ups. But overall, we've done better with our defensive additions than those on O -- particularly in the draft.

    d) We're better on the back end on D than we are on O. Our depth on the line is most glaring example, but it's true across the entirety of the units.

    e) Superior coaching on D. This may be the biggest factor. I'm not really sure, and hesitate to resort to the "blame schotty" type of thinking. But it does seem that without this as a major factor, the rest just doesn't add up.

  13. #33
    2 of our biggest problem areas last year were at safety and lack of pass rush. We addressed the safeties in free agency and pass rush in draft with Coples. You can't fix everything in one draft but we did pick two WR's, Hill in the second round. The fact is our franchise, like so many other franchises, depends on the QB. Sanchez was drafted 4th overall, if he became or becomes elite, we would be in the hunt for a super bowl, with just as much of a chance as GB, NO, NE, or Baltimore. Sanchez is not elite at this point, and we aren't a serious contender because of it. Hate to oversimplify the debate, but put Brees, Rodgers, or Brady on our team and we would be as good as anybody.

  14. #34
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    We just need a franchise qb and everything will get better. Sanchez has about a month left and his tenure as Possible franchise qb is over. Too bad tebow will then come in and win us games. Putting us smack in the middle of the draft where no franchise qb will be.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe W. Namath View Post
    We just need a franchise qb and everything will get better. Sanchez has about a month left and his tenure as Possible franchise qb is over. Too bad tebow will then come in and win us games. Putting us smack in the middle of the draft where no franchise qb will be.
    THAT wont happen...we'll trade away more picks and get a new QB (who also cant play).

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by rextilleon View Post
    Again, brilliant analysis. Sar my friend, it seems like you and I and the few other objective Jets fans are finally getting through to the Kool Aiders.
    Me too...I've gotten brow beaten for the honesty.

    Where the heck are sg3 and NY stepchild??? They must be brewing new kool aid.

    The Panthers are gonna kill us next week.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by DDNYjets View Post
    Exactly. Rex inherited a good "ground and pound" team but since he and Tanny have done nothing to maintain it. Our personnel does not fit our "philosophy". Actually, our personnel doesn't fit any philosophy. We are in limbo on offense. On our OL half the guys are road graders, half the guys are athletic. Our QB can run PA but we can't run the ball to keep teams honest. We used to have great blocking WRs in Cotch and Edwards. Now we have none. At least last season we had Plax, who for all his struggles between the 20s was great in the RZ and blocked his ass off. Not to mention losing LT.
    The TERMINATOR PICK sums of Rex. A 5th round pick, when we need OLINE and LB, to bring in a back no one was looking at.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by docdhc View Post
    2 of our biggest problem areas last year were at safety and lack of pass rush. We addressed the safeties in free agency and pass rush in draft with Coples. You can't fix everything in one draft but we did pick two WR's, Hill in the second round.
    tanny drafted based on BAP and not for need, which he should be commended for doing. however, the team had glaring needs at RT and that one position wasn't fixed. they knew this, i think, but hoped that hunter would be ok this year, and then they'd fix that the following offseason. if you draft BAP every year, ideally you have depth at a lot of positions and rarely have this type of talent void at a critical position. but since the jets just switched philosophies, they have an influx of nice young talent but still have the RT problem. if the jets drafted BAP for the next few years this shouldn't happen as often.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by SAR I View Post
    We committed to a rookie head coach to cut his teeth on our team.

    This head coach is playing all the low percentages:

    - Trying to win a Super Bowl on defense, only been done 3 times out of 46 tries.

    - Trying to win games via ball control on the ground in a league that's been optimized to win in the air passing.

    - Trying to manage a team as three individual units with three different Assistant HC's with different styles who wind up pushing the team apart moreso than bringing it together.

    - Trying to be a friendly "players coach" rather than a disciplinarian.

    - Going crazy building a shut-down defense while virtually ignoring the offense.

    If you look at it big-picture, this "Shut Down D" and "Ground & Pound" strategy has never worked. In '09 we came close, the D dominated, but still we only managed a mediocre 9-7 record, didn't set the league on fire with our running game. In '10 our defense showed a lot of weakness, gave up a lot of 4th quarter leads, and saw our offense get us 4 improbable comeback wins in the air, not on the ground. Once in the playoffs, we played smart and made enough big plays to get us halfway to glory, but again only one game really worked on the "Shut Down D" and "Ground & Pound" strategy. The rest came from last minute heriocs, some timely interceptions, and some air ball. Just like the two regular seasons that preceded it, the two postseasons were high on improv, low on the original concept.

    It seems that the price we pay for sustaining a great defense is that we wind up with a paltry offense. Sound familiar? Look at the Baltimore Ravens, look at the Tampa Bay Bucs, look at the Chicago Bears. All won Super Bowls when all the pieces aligned finally, but for the better part of a decade each suffered with pathetic offenses starved of talent to fuel stellar defenses. Boring games, fans with nothing to cheer for but the defense, all-pro defenders pissed at the offense, quarterbacks that looked clueless, constant three-and-outs, nail-biters 24/7.

    I'm not calling for anyone's head, but facts are facts. Until Ryan and Tannenbaum decide we're a different type of team and are willing to sacrifice defensive depth for offensive strength this is what we're going to have to deal with. "Playing Jet Football" is a low-percentage play and it's what we've chosen to do.

    SAR I
    Wrong.

  20. #40
    I have no problem with committing a disproportionate amount of resources to one side of the ball, be that financial resources, draft picks, etc. I think that makes sense in a salary cap league where it is nearly impossible to be dominant on both sides of the ball.

    And, I do think you have to be dominant on one side of the ball. (As opposed to trying to be "good" at both) So, I've had no problem with the Jets continuing to use top draft picks and FA dollars on defensive players.

    Problem is, you can't be so incompetent on offense as to be totally unable to score points. And, I have a problem with the whole "ground & pound" philosophy, because:

    a.) By and large, it doesn't work. The rules are set up to help the passing game. Why not take advantage of that? If you were running a baseball team and MLB made a rule that all fences had to be moved in to 350 feet, would you put a line-up of singles hitters out there and insist on playing "small ball"? It makes no sense.

    b.) Even if it could work, we don't have the personnel to pull it off.

    There is no reason to try to define our offense for the world. How about this for a philosophy: "We are going to have a dominant defense, and we are going to do whatever it takes to score points on offense."

    We have the personnel to have a decent, middle-of-the-pack, offense. But it would take a creative offensive coordinator to get the most out of this current collection of players. Shotty never had that sort of creativity, and sadly I don't think Sparano is the answer.

    Rex has a perfect personality for a DC. He is chaotic. Everything he does causes chaos, from his press conferences, to his off field "appearances", to what he does on the field. That is perfect for defense, where the whole goal is to cause chaos. Rex is chaos personified, and the team takes on that personality.

    That doesn't work on offense. It's detrimental. Offense is rhythm, offense is cerebral. It's the "anti-Rex". I think that's why the Jets will never have a legitimately good offense with him as the HC.

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