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Thread: Aside from that one throw Sanchez looked excellent

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMikeIsHot View Post
    No, that NEVER happens

    I see your point. I just think you're making this seem as though every time he holds the ball or gets sacked it's because of the WRs or the OL when in fact there are numerous occasions where it's completely his fault for failing to recognize the pressure or escape the pressure when there is an obvious escape route.
    That's 100% the truth, you're right. The problem with your argument though is this thread is solely about how Sanchez looked in Saturday night's game, where despite the pick 6, it seemed as if there was much improvement with Sanchez' decision making. (As in, not continuously trying to force throws that results in several INT's - and as I said earlier, I maintain the idea that, with 2 minutes to go in a preseason half, in what was looking like it would be the Jets last possession of the half, he tried to force something that wasn't there just to generate SOMETHING before coming out of the game considering Patrick Turner couldn't get open if my lazy dog were covering him).

    It's a contradiction to sit here in this thread and complain about Sanchez' past issues (which you were 100% right about), but not recognize that he didn't really have those issues on Saturday. The Sanchez we know and love from past seasons would have forced way more throws to guys who weren't remotely close to being open. You just can't blame the guy when our offensive line is getting destroyed by four-man rushes and the guys Sanchez has to find open in 2 seconds are Patrick Turner and a rookie in his second preseason game.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by JETZONI View Post
    " The one throw" That's been the problem buddy, can't give mulligans on game day
    Ugh! Am I the only one who cringes when I hear the word Mulligan?

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by unchartedm0nkey View Post
    That's 100% the truth, you're right. The problem with your argument though is this thread is solely about how Sanchez looked in Saturday night's game, where despite the pick 6, it seemed as if there was much improvement with Sanchez' decision making. (As in, not continuously trying to force throws that results in several INT's - and as I said earlier, I maintain the idea that, with 2 minutes to go in a preseason half, in what was looking like it would be the Jets last possession of the half, he tried to force something that wasn't there just to generate SOMETHING before coming out of the game considering Patrick Turner couldn't get open if my lazy dog were covering him).

    It's a contradiction to sit here in this thread and complain about Sanchez' past issues (which you were 100% right about), but not recognize that he didn't really have those issues on Saturday. The Sanchez we know and love from past seasons would have forced way more throws to guys who weren't remotely close to being open. You just can't blame the guy when our offensive line is getting destroyed by four-man rushes and the guys Sanchez has to find open in 2 seconds are Patrick Turner and a rookie in his second preseason game.
    It was a terrible decision and a worse throw. There was plenty of time to throw on that play and nobody is to blame for the pick-6 other than #6.

    He never tried to escape the pressure Saturday. There was one play I remember where he got scared, ducked for cover and stumbled into the mass of players... but there was a wide open escape route to his right, he could have rolled out and either found a WR, ran it, or threw it away.

    But he was scared. He shows absolutely no pocket awareness and this hasn't changed one bit in his 3 years here.

    There are many reasons why good QBs don't get sacked much and bad QBs get sacked all the time... most of those reasons have nothing to do with the OL.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMikeIsHot View Post
    It was a terrible decision and a worse throw. There was plenty of time to throw on that play and nobody is to blame for the pick-6 other than #6.

    He never tried to escape the pressure Saturday. There was one play I remember where he got scared, ducked for cover and stumbled into the mass of players... but there was a wide open escape route to his right, he could have rolled out and either found a WR, ran it, or threw it away.

    But he was scared. He shows absolutely no pocket awareness and this hasn't changed one bit in his 3 years here.

    There are many reasons why good QBs don't get sacked much and bad QBs get sacked all the time... most of those reasons have nothing to do with the OL.
    Lol, look man, I'm trying to be diplomatic about it, but you're throwing out some pretty ridiculous reasoning here. I'm not trying to tell you the pick 6 wasn't bad; it obviously was. What I'm saying, and what you continue to ignore, is the situation Sanchez was in on Saturday was probably the scenario with the least probable chance of success he's had since ever stepping onto a football field wearing a Jets helmet. There was nobody to throw to, all game. If Sanchez did what you accuse of him doing, he would have had a LOT more than one interception, that's for sure. I'm not going to get on the guy for forcing ONE throw on what looked like his last series of the night in a preseason game. Bad idea? Yes, it clearly was. But you need to put it in context: if Sanchez did the entire half what you accuse him of doing, the stat line would have looked a LOT worse and you'd have a lot more to complain about.

    Your argument is also extremely contradictory. Apparently, based on what you said, he was "scared," yet, at the same exact time, he "never tried to escape the pressure." You can't have it both ways. Even if he was scared, can you really blame him when we saw the worst RT play we've had in, I'm not sure, but possibly EVER? Really tough to take that logic seriously though when you say the guy is scared, then you also accuse him of never even trying to escape the pressure.

    Finally, yeah, what you said about why good QB's don't get sacked much, its true. There are many reasons for it. That's true as GENERAL statement. Generally, the sky is blue too. Just like anything else though there are exceptions to the general statement. In our case, referring to Saturday-specifically, when Wayne Hunter was the equivalent of an open space on the field, with Patrick Turner and a preseason rookie atop the WR depth chart, that's a pretty SIGNIFICANT reason for taking sacks. But look at the bright side, you're in a win-win here. If Sanchez didn't take the sacks, and instead chucked up 4-5 more throws that just weren't there because Patrick Turner can't get open, you'd have a 3-4 INT game to ***** about instead.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by unchartedm0nkey View Post
    Lol, look man, I'm trying to be diplomatic about it, but you're throwing out some pretty ridiculous reasoning here. I'm not trying to tell you the pick 6 wasn't bad; it obviously was. What I'm saying, and what you continue to ignore, is the situation Sanchez was in on Saturday was probably the scenario with the least probable chance of success he's had since ever stepping onto a football field wearing a Jets helmet. There was nobody to throw to, all game. If Sanchez did what you accuse of him doing, he would have had a LOT more than one interception, that's for sure. I'm not going to get on the guy for forcing ONE throw on what looked like his last series of the night in a preseason game. Bad idea? Yes, it clearly was. But you need to put it in context: if Sanchez did the entire half what you accuse him of doing, the stat line would have looked a LOT worse and you'd have a lot more to complain about.

    Your argument is also extremely contradictory. Apparently, based on what you said, he was "scared," yet, at the same exact time, he "never tried to escape the pressure." You can't have it both ways. Even if he was scared, can you really blame him when we saw the worst RT play we've had in, I'm not sure, but possibly EVER? Really tough to take that logic seriously though when you say the guy is scared, then you also accuse him of never even trying to escape the pressure.

    Finally, yeah, what you said about why good QB's don't get sacked much, its true. There are many reasons for it. That's true as GENERAL statement. Generally, the sky is blue too. Just like anything else though there are exceptions to the general statement. In our case, referring to Saturday-specifically, when Wayne Hunter was the equivalent of an open space on the field, with Patrick Turner and a preseason rookie atop the WR depth chart, that's a pretty SIGNIFICANT reason for taking sacks. But look at the bright side, you're in a win-win here. If Sanchez didn't take the sacks, and instead chucked up 4-5 more throws that just weren't there because Patrick Turner can't get open, you'd have a 3-4 INT game to ***** about instead.

    I do understand that he was in a difficult situation Saturday. I just want to see a shred of awareness from the guy because I do think he can be good. There's no doubt in my mind he has all the tools, but the mental part of the game is a big problem for him and it always has been.

    Honestly, I wouldn't be as upset if he threw 3 INTs on deep balls as I am now because this is exactly what his problem was to end the year.

    So you want to talk specifics, not generalities...

    The JPP sack at the 5 yardline: not Mark's fault. Hunter got abused. Nothing Sanchez can do about that.

    The Osi sack: he held the ball too long, didn't throw it, didn't roll out to the right where he had lots of room. He stayed in the pocket and took the sack.

    The Pick 6: he had PLENTY of time and made a really bad throw. FYI, that was 3rd and 10 and he's throwing a 3 yard crossing route to a guy who is blanketed. Even if he completes the throw, it's worthless.

    Good QBs avoid two of these 3.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMikeIsHot View Post

    The JPP sack at the 5 yardline: not Mark's fault. Hunter got abused. Nothing Sanchez can do about that.

    The Osi sack: he held the ball too long, didn't throw it, didn't roll out to the right where he had lots of room. He stayed in the pocket and took the sack.

    The Pick 6: he had PLENTY of time and made a really bad throw. FYI, that was 3rd and 10 and he's throwing a 3 yard crossing route to a guy who is blanketed. Even if he completes the throw, it's worthless.

    Good QBs avoid two of these 3.
    great post. Also should be noted that even with all the disasters of Hunter's pass blocking, the Jets were only down 6-0. the pick 6 blew the game open.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMikeIsHot View Post
    I do understand that he was in a difficult situation Saturday. I just want to see a shred of awareness from the guy because I do think he can be good. There's no doubt in my mind he has all the tools, but the mental part of the game is a big problem for him and it always has been.

    Honestly, I wouldn't be as upset if he threw 3 INTs on deep balls as I am now because this is exactly what his problem was to end the year.

    So you want to talk specifics, not generalities...

    The JPP sack at the 5 yardline: not Mark's fault. Hunter got abused. Nothing Sanchez can do about that.

    The Osi sack: he held the ball too long, didn't throw it, didn't roll out to the right where he had lots of room. He stayed in the pocket and took the sack.

    The Pick 6: he had PLENTY of time and made a really bad throw. FYI, that was 3rd and 10 and he's throwing a 3 yard crossing route to a guy who is blanketed. Even if he completes the throw, it's worthless.

    Good QBs avoid two of these 3.
    You're right on point. Sanchez doesn't seem able to pull the plug and throw the ball away. Instead he takes the sack and the beating along with it. And that's in large part because he doesn't sense the defender until his hands are on him. This is speculation, but it seems that Sanchez is not sufficiently internally relaxed to tune in to more than one thing at a time. He seems so bent on checking down/going through his progressions that he loses sight of everything else. The top QB's generally are internally calm and able to survey and sense the defenders while also pulling the trigger as needed. Sanchez just doesn't seem to have this mastery at all. It's murder for an NFL QB to be unable to multitask in real time.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by bitonti View Post
    great post. Also should be noted that even with all the disasters of Hunter's pass blocking, the Jets were only down 6-0. the pick 6 blew the game open.
    But we can't just count the negatives [sacks]. How often does the line make a positive play that actually gives Sanchez time to make a play?

    0 points mind as well have been -50 points - because the first team couldn't convert 3rd downs, couldn't make a big play, and couldn't sniff the red zone. We weren't even close to getting points.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMikeIsHot View Post
    I do understand that he was in a difficult situation Saturday. I just want to see a shred of awareness from the guy because I do think he can be good. There's no doubt in my mind he has all the tools, but the mental part of the game is a big problem for him and it always has been.

    Honestly, I wouldn't be as upset if he threw 3 INTs on deep balls as I am now because this is exactly what his problem was to end the year.

    So you want to talk specifics, not generalities...

    The JPP sack at the 5 yardline: not Mark's fault. Hunter got abused. Nothing Sanchez can do about that.

    The Osi sack: he held the ball too long, didn't throw it, didn't roll out to the right where he had lots of room. He stayed in the pocket and took the sack.

    The Pick 6: he had PLENTY of time and made a really bad throw. FYI, that was 3rd and 10 and he's throwing a 3 yard crossing route to a guy who is blanketed. Even if he completes the throw, it's worthless.

    Good QBs avoid two of these 3.
    That's fine, I'll go with that. Thing is though, kind of difficult to say he's "scared' back there yet "unaware" at the same time. You want to go with unaware, I'll go with that, because it leaves much to be desired I agree. Mentally he hasn't put it together. But in terms of playing scared as you said earlier? We've seen PLENTY of Sanchez staying in the pocket to make a throw, while taking a big hit, over the last few seasons. Hate him or not, he's done it a ton. Maybe Saturday looked different, but we've seen it enough out of Sanchez to kind of defer from the "scared" label that's become so popular.

    On the pick 6, I maintain what I said earlier. You just crushed him for holding onto the ball too long and getting sacked, you admit that our O-line is terrible (at least, the RT portion of it), but then you crush the guy for trying to make a throw? Was it the greatest decision in the world? Obviously not. He just spent the better portion of 30 minutes of football on his back and I'm sure rushed it because as you said, he had plenty of time. (for much of the reasons you outlined above). But you can't have it both ways in your argument - it undermines what point you're really trying to make.

    Seems like we have the same conclusion though (as most people in the thread do), just different routes of getting there.
    Last edited by unchartedm0nkey; 08-20-2012 at 02:37 PM.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by unchartedm0nkey View Post
    That's fine, I'll go with that. Thing is though, kind of difficult to say he's "scared' back there yet "unaware" at the same time. You want to go with unaware, I'll go with that, because it leaves much to be desired I agree. Mentally he hasn't put it together. But in terms of playing scared as you said earlier? We've seen PLENTY of Sanchez staying in the pocket to make a throw, while taking a big hit, over the last few seasons. Hate him or not, he's done it a ton. Maybe Saturday looked different, but we've seen it enough out of Sanchez to kind of defer from the "scared" label that's become so popular.

    On the pick 6, I maintain what I said earlier. You just crushed him for holding onto the ball too long and getting sacked, you admit that our O-line is terrible (at least, the RT portion of it), but then you crush the guy for trying to make a throw? Was it the greatest decision in the world? Obviously not. He just spent the better portion of 30 minutes of football on his back and I'm sure rushed it because as you said, he had plenty of time. (for much of the reasons you outlined above). But you can't have it both ways in your argument - it undermines what point you're really trying to make.

    Seems like we have the same conclusion though (as most people in the thread do), just different routes of getting there.
    Yeah, scared was the wrong word choice. My bad.

    He isn't "scared" as much as he plays flustered and that causes him to lose focus and the necessary awareness -- his internal clock is just off. He doesn't seem to understand when he has time and when he doesn't or understand where he can move to create more time. And for a QB that plays behind a suspect OL, the clock a required trait.

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMikeIsHot View Post
    Yeah, scared was the wrong word choice. My bad.

    He isn't "scared" as much as he plays flustered and that causes him to lose focus and the necessary awareness -- his internal clock is just off. He doesn't seem to understand when he has time and when he doesn't or understand where he can move to create more time. And for a QB that plays behind a suspect OL, the clock a required trait.
    Couldn't agree more with that. Let's hope he puts this to rest so we don't have to have conversations like this much more...

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beerfish View Post
    If you are saying our Qb only has a chance at all if we have a top 5 D, oline and running game like he did the 1st two years then he wasn't worth drafting at 5 overall.
    Exactly what I've been saying for months now.

    We didn't draft Sanchez to be a f*cking gamemanager.

    You don't trade up into the Top 5 of the draft for a QB in the hopes that your getting the next Trent Dilfer or Brad Johnson.

    You draft a QB in the Top 5 in the hopes that he can become the face of your franchise. A guy that can carry his team on his back and doesn't have to have every single facet of the offense firing on all cylinders week in and week out just to turn in a halfway decent performance.

    Sanchez still looks like the same QB we saw in his rookie year, but with even less confidence. Literally no progression. I could give a flying rats ass if you throw for 26 TD's if you're still going to turn the ball over 26 times. And he seems to turn the ball over at the most backbreaking, crucial times as well.

    If people want to keep living in this fantasy land where Sanchez is just all of the sudden going to turn into a completely different player...then have at it.

    Personally, I've seen enough to know that this kid is never going to have the ability to be the focal point of an offense.

  13. #133
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    I still maintain that criticisms of Sanchez holding onto the ball too long (talking only about the Giants game) would be more valid if the pressure was the result of the defense sending extra men, and not from a 4 man rush.

    When the defense only sends 4 guys, the quarterback usually has all day to find someone. It's supposed to be really hard to get pressure with 4 guys. When we send 4 guys, that's when Brady stands back there for 7 seconds as we scream our heads off waiting for someone to get near him.

    When you have less than 3 seconds to beat 7-man coverage, that's a difficult task. When you have less than 3 seconds to beat 7-man coverage and you don't have a single receiver that would be top 3 on any NFL team's depth chart: Now you're facing a near-impossible task. Unless you're going to do what Sanchez was doing for most of the game, and take the dumpoff.

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB1089 View Post
    I still maintain that criticisms of Sanchez holding onto the ball too long (talking only about the Giants game) would be more valid if the pressure was the result of the defense sending extra men, and not from a 4 man rush.

    When the defense only sends 4 guys, the quarterback usually has all day to find someone. It's supposed to be really hard to get pressure with 4 guys. When we send 4 guys, that's when Brady stands back there for 7 seconds as we scream our heads off waiting for someone to get near him.

    When you have less than 3 seconds to beat 7-man coverage, that's a difficult task. When you have less than 3 seconds to beat 7-man coverage and you don't have a single receiver that would be top 3 on any NFL team's depth chart: Now you're facing a near-impossible task. Unless you're going to do what Sanchez was doing for most of the game, and take the dumpoff.
    Said much better than I did in any of my above posts. Well done, completely spot on.

  15. #135
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    Everybody relax! It's not time to paic. YET!

    OK...

    1. It doesn't matter who is behind center... Sanchez, Tebow, Montana, Marino, Elway, Manning, Brady, Dennis Byrd, Jeff Lageman.... if that offensive line does not improve in both pass blocking AND run blocking... we are doomed. THEN we can panic.

    2. Our WRs are hurt. Give them time to get back out there.

    3. I am putting a lot of faith in the fact that (a) this IS just the preseason and everything is vanilla, and more importantly, (b) praying that Tanny is on the phones several times a day looking for OL depth and a starting RT if at all humanly possible. And the waiver wire. And semi-pro leagues. And the local gyms. And pickup football games.

    I do like the post that explains how clear it is that Sanchez isn't even trying, LOL!

    Think about your day to day job. Think of hard, stressful things you must do at work, where your career is on the line if you mess up. Imagine doing it with men twice your size attempting to hurt you and you don't even have a few seconds to look and think. Watch the rest of the league. I don't see any other QB with consistently less time to throw than our QBs have had in the past season and so far this preseason. It's painful to watch, and if something is not done, we're going to be in a lot of low-scoring games (that the media, TV networks, and casual/fair-weather fans hate), and hovering around a .500-or-worse record and out of the playoffs. Our exceptional D and opportunistic Special Teams can't keep us in all of them. That OL needs to improve, and fast, or we'll see a lot of 0-3 yard runs, 5-7 yard completions, incomplete passes, and a TON of 3-and-outs, interceptions, and QBs getting up slowly in agony.
    Last edited by ChrisChrusher#40; 08-20-2012 at 04:09 PM.

  16. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB1089 View Post
    Um, no. Tebow might process information slower than any other QB in the NFL right now. That's why he holds the ball longer than any QB in the NFL. Football Outsiders had an article from last year, the average "ball in hand" time was 2.9 seconds, Tebow was over 4 seconds, more than a second clear of the next QB on the list. Sanchez was right in the middle of the pack, I want to say 3.1 or 3.2 seconds.
    uh, no. Watch the game, spout your stats from out your ....

    Watch him. Have you coached? I have for 21 years. I know what I'm talking about.

  17. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMikeIsHot View Post
    Because he does both.

    When there is pressure coming, QBs can see it, and should be thinking "I've got to get rid of the ball NOW." When there is no pressure, QBs can see it, and should be thinking "Let's get something big here."

  18. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by SCITSCAT View Post
    uh, no. Watch the game, spout your stats from out your ....

    Watch him. Have you coached? I have for 21 years. I know what I'm talking about.
    What level football do you coach?

  19. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by bitonti View Post
    great post. Also should be noted that even with all the disasters of Hunter's pass blocking, the Jets were only down 6-0. the pick 6 blew the game open.
    pointwise maybe, but that was going to change one way or another, as the Giants were killing us on both sides of the ball with first 2 strings.

    Loved the play of the new safeties, they really helped us squelch some problems and Coples is a true blessing, along with Ellis. These guys are making some of this year's team and having some hope.

  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by bitonti View Post
    great post. Also should be noted that even with all the disasters of Hunter's pass blocking, the Jets were only down 6-0. the pick 6 blew the game open.
    with all the starters vs. starters and subs vs. subs the jets lost 26-3. if you remove that play the jets lost 19-3. suppose for a moment that sanchez's pick 6 were incomplete. does that make the game any better for him, or for the jets' offense? it all still stinks, pick 6 or not. i'd rather the jets have been losing 26-20 at the time of the pick 6, instead of 6-0. the defense can hold its own enough of the time so if the offense ever improves, they can win some games. the jets can't score tds no matter who suits up for them, so how are they going to win, even if they don't turn the ball over?

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