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Thread: Are the Jets secretly "rebuilding"?

  1. #21
    was this article by Jason? Very insightful and well thought. Enjoyable read.

    Makes some sense.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by patman View Post
    It is a bad concept as FA cost much more than drafted players. Landry if he lasts the season cost almost 4 mil. Bell was cheap and that is it what other cheap FA has he brought in since 2009?

    You cant trade up and use up picks and keep signing guys like Scott, Pace, Faneca, or trading picks for guys who are FA the next year such as Jenkins, Cro and Holmes and farve.
    You have to look at guaranteed money and cap hit when reviewing contracts. We can disagree but maintain that the Jets would not have been competitive if these FA's weren't added during the rebuilding process.

  3. #23
    Thanks OP - I enjoyed that and agree with a lot of what you're saying.

    While all teams are always rebuilding the Jets seemingly have come to the conclusion they aren't going to mortgage the future for this year - which seems to be a change of pace from the past two seasons.

    Everyone's been asking, how can Tanny allow Hunter to be the starting RT again this year. Is he simply incompetant? I think not - He just wasn't going to reach this year.

    The one thing that fly's in the face of this theory though is the Tebow signing, but my guess is that likely came from above. System or no system, if your boss tells you to do something, you do it.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by JETFAN1 View Post
    You have to look at guaranteed money and cap hit when reviewing contracts. We can disagree but maintain that the Jets would not have been competitive if these FA's weren't added during the rebuilding process.
    It was absolutely effective, and I don't not mean to infer that it was not.
    but how that plan leaves the jets now is the issue I had with it. Cap strapped, with oline, TE, WR and Safety issues

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by escamoter2 View Post
    to label it "rebuilding" is ridiculous IMO; at least a third of the roster turns over every year and we draft new players every year...if we were rebuilding, we would have cut Scott, Pace, Hunter, Smith, DeVito, etc. by now and let younger guys play in their place
    I guess it depends on what you think rebuilding is. Do the Jets want to rid themselves of high priced aging talent? Of course, most teams do. However the names you mentioned Scott, Pace, and Hunter were all cap prohibitive to cut this year because their salary was guaranteed. It was simply not feasible to cut those guys.

    Good franchises build through the draft and develop the core of their team through that. You can not go into every season needing to sign 4-5 free agents to fill out your starting lineup.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by patman View Post
    It was absolutely effective, and I don't not mean to infer that it was not.
    but how that plan leaves the jets now is the issue I had with it. Cap strapped, with oline, TE, WR and Safety issues
    I get your point but you can't address all those needs you stated besides all the other needs the Jets needed in the draft alone. Like I said before the Jets roster was average when Mangini got here with no franchise QB and cap hell!

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by patman View Post
    Yes they are rebuilding, I cant see how it can be viewed any other way.

    if you look at the roster that lost the conference game in 2010 and compare it to the players who are signed or expected to be on the roster in 2013 at this time you have:

    Sanchez as QB
    Holmes as WR
    Mangold and Dbrick on the oline.
    Pouha on the D line
    Harris as a LB
    Revis and Wilson as corners

    If anyone does not see this as rebuilding- what do they see it as?
    Re-tooling. Rebuilding suggests sacrificing the present for the future. Or, at least not having the results of the present year as the foremost concern. There is no suggestion that the Jets have any interest in doing that.

    But, in general, there is no true "rebuilding" in the NFL. Every team approaches the season with an eye towards making the playoffs. And once you make the playoffs, anything can happen. The Colts went 1-15 last year - they have eyes on making the playoffs. The Bengals sucked in 2010 - they made the playoffs last year.

    Sure there are haves and have nots. But its not on account of playing for the future.

    Rebuilding is a term that is best left for baseball.

  8. #28
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    And lets be honest....we can break down the Jets roster and salary cap 100 different ways until we're blue in the face. But it all comes down to QB play. The Jets have the requisite pieces in place to be successful if they get good QB play. They don't have the requisite pieces in place to be successful if they don't.

    And likewise, the Jets have enough pieces in place, at key positions, for the next few years to be successful. If Sanchez is the QB of the future, the Jets have to tweak, but not overhaul, the roster. But, if they need to find a new QB next year, all bets are off.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by srobjets View Post
    This team needs to be rebuilt.
    On Offense.
    Lets see we have one solid o lineman.
    We have zero receivers that can get separation.
    Our qbs are terrible.
    Our TE's can't block or get open.
    If you look at our RB's they go down, and have zero break away speed.
    But they are holding back for week one and all of our sorrows will be ok when they unleash the secret o.

    On D.

    We have D line man that or solid against the run, but can't pass rush at all.
    We have slow smart Lb's that can't cover. We have Myhem that's a one trick onder practicing against the worst o line in football.
    We have a safety that's one twist of an ankle from being gone forever.

    We do have some young guns that need time to progress and get better, so yeah it looks like this teams is rebuilding or is in need of being rebuilt.
    So you are saying that we are not the best Jets team in 30 years? Is that what you are saying here?

  10. #30
    Jason is smart, but his premise is off here. His outlook here is underpinned by the idea that the "cap aspect" is supreme, and we can divine macro football operations and business trends from it: that because we have not spent to the cap limit, or overleveraged ourselves with FA signings and their hamstringing contracts, he draws the conclusion (not the only conclusion he draws in the article from cap trends) that we are in a rebuilding cycle.

    To draw this conclusion, the cap aspect of general managament has to co-opt both the entire concept of football operations, which is not reducuble to just the cap, as well as the more enveloping total business outlook, which in essence is represented by Woody Johnson's purse strings.

    The proper hierarchy flows from WJ's business interests, one of which is the Jets. One aspect of the Jets is management and football operations, and the cap aspect is a subset of the former.

    Woody spends when it is in his business interest to do so. He determines whether or not the Jets spend to the cap, leverage his cash in FA, etc. These decisions are not the GM's decisions per se, unless the owner gives the say-so.

    The GM is generally given a degree of latitude - from the owner - within which he must function with budget constraints.

    The way that Tannenbaum cut his teeth made him an iconoclast. He has always been unconventional - from his novel drafting and offseason strategy to his handling of the cap and contract structure. He doesn't believe in rebuilding. He wants it both ways. He wants to draft a rookie QB and still contend.

    He's accomplished that, in large part because of Rex Ryan, who was able to put together a consistent top 5 defense and implement effective ball control offense.

    The fact that Ryan will always have a top 10 defense regardless means that the team will always be a danger to contend, which means that even when they are rebuilding, they're not.

    When a team drafts a rookie QB, that is either the beginning or the end of the rebuilding phase. I think the method of choice for GMs is to begin rebuilding with the left tackle position. That's what Tannenbaum did.

    When your team is scrambling for a left tackle, or a QB, your team is rebuilding. When yor team is purging expensive FA contracts, that team may be getting ready to rebuild.

    When your GM just locked up the FLT he drafted as the cornerstone of the franchise long term, and when you have a young fourth year QB that has the potential to make the next step into solid vet status, your team is not rebuilding.

    With a defense like RR banks on having every year, said team can compete every year. Last year, we competed. We did. We didn't make it. Ok.

    Not everyone drafts Tom Brady on the second day and has that asset for 15 years.

    Just because the GM is not spending to cap limit, and signing FAs left and right, doesn't mean we are rebuilding or getting ready to rebuild. There are a variety of other conclusions that cld be drawn from this information.

    The GM is functioning within the budgetary limitations placed on him.

    The GM has made mistakes, most glaring on the line, where we have been thin for years. This problem has screwed us b4 - adrian clarke anyone? When an OL has holes, it makes the ENTIRE offense look ineffective. Cascade failure.

    Sacks, chains don't move, can pick up short yardage; out of sync playcalling and execution. Sound familiar? Give sanchez some time and greene a hole, and no one here is talking about rebuilding.

    While they def have to figure out the RT position, the (ok, total) failure of that position doesn't mean that we are rebuilding. We need a player.
    Last edited by Darth Vader; 08-21-2012 at 02:22 PM.

  11. #31
    "Rebuilding" implies that something had already been built.

    We're building.

  12. #32
    Just as a quick note: I dont think the team is actually rebuilding right now. I do think they are in a holding pattern. They dont want to get in any deeper on the contracts they have nor do they want to go out and purchase older veterans that may help today and be a disaster the following season. I dont think Rex believes it but I think the GM is smart enough to know that Sanchez dictates the real results for the team. If Sanchez flames out and Tebow doesnt do anything as his replacement I do think next season you will see major changes to the structure of the roster to try to get a bunch of draft picks on the team. JMO, but the room is split on Sanchez with a contingent ready to bail and another that wants to give him more time. The contract that they gave is a short term audition wrapped in big numbers that he will never see nor will they ever really effect the teams salary structure.

    The salary cap rewind screwed up alot of what the Jets had planned. They did get rid of the Ghost in that free cap year, but that was about it. Teams built like the Jets with a number of good high priced players need to reset their cap structure by getting more into the draft since the salary slotting has made the first round, primarily the top 15, a bargain compared to the past.

  13. #33
    The Jets will never be entirely rebuilding the way, say the Colts are this season. It goes against Woody's philosophy. He wants to be relevant so he can sell those PSLs. You don't bring in a guy like Tebow and honestly think that makes you a title contender. That is a grasping at thin air move decided to stay afloat as the roster has weakened.

    Not to mention, our alleged franchise QB is entering his 4th season, which should be his prime. If you indeed have a franchise QB in his prime, you cannot be rebuilding. Although it is still questionable what Sanchez is as a player.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by patman View Post
    It is a bad concept as FA cost much more than drafted players. Landry if he lasts the season cost almost 4 mil. Bell was cheap and that is it what other cheap FA has he brought in since 2009?

    You cant trade up and use up picks and keep signing guys like Scott, Pace, Faneca, or trading picks for guys who are FA the next year such as Jenkins, Cro and Holmes and farve.
    Sure you can. It just means your window (see 2008-2010) is about 3 years, then you're f**ked.

    The more you look back on things in hindsight, the more it seems like going with a veteran journeyman QB over Sanchez in 09 was the right call.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Dirtstar View Post
    it goes a little beyond that (you missed like 5-6 guys who were starters on those teams and will most likely be here next year) but you make a valid point.

    the team next year will be drastically different, and much younger, than the team that went to back-to-back AFCCG.

    I did miss Cro and Ducasse, But only Cro started - Who else.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by patman View Post
    I did miss Cro and Ducasse, But only Cro started - Who else.
    Ducasse? are you crazy?? might as well have said Gholston


    no, i was talking about guys like Cro, Slauson, Greene, Keller, DeVito. they're all part of the team's core and i'm betting most (if not all) will be around in 2013.

  17. #37
    no way this team is rebuilding. one of the problems though is if a few draft picks miss badly it can impact the team for years. the gholston pick really set this team back. i'm not willing to trash ducasse yet but it is also clear that sanchez isn't exactly the second coming of joe willie. he's good but he's been developing bad habits since day one and will take some time to get them straightened out. we'll see what happens. they will play the season and there is a good chance they will win 11 or even 12 games. it's all about catching teams at the right time and then exploiting whatever disadvantage a team has.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason423 View Post
    Just as a quick note: I dont think the team is actually rebuilding right now. I do think they are in a holding pattern. They dont want to get in any deeper on the contracts they have nor do they want to go out and purchase older veterans that may help today and be a disaster the following season. I dont think Rex believes it but I think the GM is smart enough to know that Sanchez dictates the real results for the team. If Sanchez flames out and Tebow doesnt do anything as his replacement I do think next season you will see major changes to the structure of the roster to try to get a bunch of draft picks on the team. JMO, but the room is split on Sanchez with a contingent ready to bail and another that wants to give him more time. The contract that they gave is a short term audition wrapped in big numbers that he will never see nor will they ever really effect the teams salary structure.

    The salary cap rewind screwed up alot of what the Jets had planned. They did get rid of the Ghost in that free cap year, but that was about it. Teams built like the Jets with a number of good high priced players need to reset their cap structure by getting more into the draft since the salary slotting has made the first round, primarily the top 15, a bargain compared to the past.
    I know you have your blog... and are probably a busy man... but post more here please. You are one of the best posters on the board. Great article.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Austin View Post
    Sure you can. It just means your window (see 2008-2010) is about 3 years, then you're f**ked.

    The more you look back on things in hindsight, the more it seems like going with a veteran journeyman QB over Sanchez in 09 was the right call.
    I pretty much agree with you that a game-manager is all you really need with a Rex Ryan defense. But the Jets were without a QB after 2008.

    I checked and Kyle Boller was available - a turnover machine. Rex Grossman, JP Losman, Byron Lefwich. It would have been one of those types of guys. And none are that appealing. So it's tough to be too critical of them going for a 1st round QB choice.

    I think what you can criticize the team for is the ridiculous extension they gave Sanchez this off-season. The guaranteed money is insane for a guy who still hasn't proven himself.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by lageman4ever View Post
    Tannenbaum has had a habit of trading away our mid and late round draft picks. Those are the guys who provide depth on your team and may eventually become starters. Think Slauson, a 6th rounder who became our LG. So instead of stockpiling OL and LB that could now be replacements, Tanny traded those picks to move up in the draft (or traded them for older & more expensive vets).

    If you trade picks to move up all the time, you basically leave yourself no room for error. The Jets got lucky with Revis and Harris but since then, we've not had a lot of dominant players. And definitely none on offense.

    Few picks + not making each one count = lack of talent and overall depth. That's where the Jets are right now.
    good point!! thats why he stayed status quo in deraft this year and looks to have done a good job!!!

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