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Thread: Our Problem In My View

  1. #1

    Our Problem In My View

    A lot of people want to point to Hunter and the OL as our problem, or Sanchez or any of a number of things.

    But the more I think about it, the more I think it is the way we have built this team is what is wrong.

    What I mean is this:

    I actually agree with Rex that he may very well be the best defensive coordinator in the NFL. I believe that with average talent that Rex can make the unit Top 10 in the NFL.

    When we decided to draft Sanchez we needed to also build the team around him. Drafting priority should have been, like what Polian did with a young Peyton, to surround Mark with as much talent and stability as possible.

    Top draft picks should have been almost exclusively OFFENSE. The majority of our cap should be on OFFENSE.

    But they went the exact opposite way. They kept drafting defense and more defense, trading for defense, defense, defense defense. And by doing so they stunted the growth of Sanchez.

    Defense DOES NOT win championships. QBs do, with only a couple of exceptions in the last quarter century. All of our effort should have been to making the best situation possible for Sanchez to become a true franchise QB. Not consistently sending the message to him that it is all about the defense and just don't screw things up.

    And I fear that this is the year that this upside down philosophy catches us. I actually like our WR corps but it is close to what we needed for Sanchez three years ago, so that they could grow and develop with Mark. I will root my heart out for this team, but the writing is on the wall that the philosophy that we have employed in building this team will be its demise.

  2. #2
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    I agree with you to the extent I think more draft pick resources should have been devoted to the o-line. But be prepared for the (a) you're not qualified to opine on NFL personnel decisions (i.e., Jasper17) and (b) you always draft the BAP even if you're fatally deficient in other areas criticisms.

  3. #3
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    I tend to agree with johnny..........draft offensive weapons and not always BAP. DRaft for need, ie. WR, OT, etc.... Let the team gel and grow together. Stop changing things each and every year. Different receivers, linemen, offensive cooordinators. Stability is what was needed here along with a list of weapons for Sanchez to target and to have protection! Good QBs win championships........not defensive teams with no stars on offense.


    jf

  4. #4
    Yeah because there are a lot of teams with 5 young former 1st rounders starting on their O right now. We haven't traded for 2 WR that where supposed to be good and friggen LT. Or spent early round picks on OL, RB, and WR. Yea we should still be starting Ellis, Pouha, Devito, Abram Elam, Eric Barton, Scott. Pace, Dwight Lowery, Ty Law, Bryan Thomas, Kenyon Coleman, and Smith. Our D wasn't aging at all. We should totally use what Washington and Houston did over the last 10 years as a basis to build a team and not NE and Pitts.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by johnnysd View Post
    A lot of people want to point to Hunter and the OL as our problem, or Sanchez or any of a number of things.

    But the more I think about it, the more I think it is the way we have built this team is what is wrong.

    What I mean is this:

    I actually agree with Rex that he may very well be the best defensive coordinator in the NFL. I believe that with average talent that Rex can make the unit Top 10 in the NFL.

    When we decided to draft Sanchez we needed to also build the team around him. Drafting priority should have been, like what Polian did with a young Peyton, to surround Mark with as much talent and stability as possible.

    Top draft picks should have been almost exclusively OFFENSE. The majority of our cap should be on OFFENSE.

    But they went the exact opposite way. They kept drafting defense and more defense, trading for defense, defense, defense defense. And by doing so they stunted the growth of Sanchez.

    Defense DOES NOT win championships. QBs do, with only a couple of exceptions in the last quarter century. All of our effort should have been to making the best situation possible for Sanchez to become a true franchise QB. Not consistently sending the message to him that it is all about the defense and just don't screw things up.

    And I fear that this is the year that this upside down philosophy catches us. I actually like our WR corps but it is close to what we needed for Sanchez three years ago, so that they could grow and develop with Mark. I will root my heart out for this team, but the writing is on the wall that the philosophy that we have employed in building this team will be its demise.
    Until I wrote that marathon post yesterday, I'd never realized the run that the Colts went on with the offensive 1st round draft picks. 4 years in a row and 6 years out of 8.

    96: Harrison
    97: Glenn
    98: Manning
    99: James
    01: Wayne
    03: Clark

    Quarterback, 2 receivers, running back, tight end, left tackle. Every starting skill position and a left tackle. Hit on every pick, no misses. And their first round pick in 2002 was Dwight Freeney. That's 7 out of 8 years they selected a guy in the first round that would make multiple Pro Bowls.

    It's the reason their offense was so great, and the reason why their defense struggled so much: They ignored the defensive side of the ball early in the draft.

    They "solved" that problem by hiring Tony Dungy. He managed to coach up some good defenses in Indy, something for which he still doesn't get the credit he deserves.

    The Colts points allowed ranks in the 4 years under Mora:

    29
    17
    15
    31

    The Colts points allowed ranks in the 7 years under Dungy:

    7
    20
    19
    2
    23
    1
    7

    And in the 3 years since:

    8
    23
    28

    Jim Caldwell sucks. But everyone already knew that.


    **Am I crazy? With vastly improved QB play and good defensive coaching (Pagano), why can't the Colts go 8-8 this year? They don't play Houston until Week 15.

    They start on the road with the Bears, but then come home for the Vikings and Jaguars before an early bye.

    The play the Packers coming out of the bye, then play us on the road.

    Then they get a run of trash teams: Browns, Titans, Dolphins, Jaguars

    Next it's road games against the Patriots and Lions, sandwiched around a home game against the Bills.

    Close the seasons with Titans, Texans, Chiefs, Texans. Like I said before, they don't play the Texans until Week 15. Schaub has played 11 or fewer games in 3 of the last 5 years, Andre Johnson is coming off back to back injury plagued seasons, and Arian Foster also has a propensity to get dinged up. And the Chiefs love going around right now is a great mystery to me. I don't get it. They weren't good when they won the division in 2010.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamers View Post
    Yeah because there are a lot of teams with 5 young former 1st rounders starting on their O right now. We haven't traded for 2 WR that where supposed to be good and friggen LT. Or spent early round picks on OL, RB, and WR. Yea we should still be starting Ellis, Pouha, Devito, Abram Elam, Eric Barton, Scott. Pace, Dwight Lowery, Ty Law, Bryan Thomas, Kenyon Coleman, and Smith. Our D wasn't aging at all. We should totally use what Washington and Houston did over the last 10 years as a basis to build a team and not NE and Pitts.
    Your 1st round draft pick, by itself, is worth more than the combined value of your other 7 picks (go look at the draft value chart).

    Since Sanchez was drafted:

    1st rounders on Offense: 0
    1st rounders on Defense: 3

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnysd View Post
    A lot of people want to point to Hunter and the OL as our problem, or Sanchez or any of a number of things.

    But the more I think about it, the more I think it is the way we have built this team is what is wrong.

    What I mean is this:

    I actually agree with Rex that he may very well be the best defensive coordinator in the NFL. I believe that with average talent that Rex can make the unit Top 10 in the NFL.

    When we decided to draft Sanchez we needed to also build the team around him. Drafting priority should have been, like what Polian did with a young Peyton, to surround Mark with as much talent and stability as possible.

    Top draft picks should have been almost exclusively OFFENSE. The majority of our cap should be on OFFENSE.

    But they went the exact opposite way. They kept drafting defense and more defense, trading for defense, defense, defense defense. And by doing so they stunted the growth of Sanchez.

    Defense DOES NOT win championships. QBs do, with only a couple of exceptions in the last quarter century. All of our effort should have been to making the best situation possible for Sanchez to become a true franchise QB. Not consistently sending the message to him that it is all about the defense and just don't screw things up.

    And I fear that this is the year that this upside down philosophy catches us. I actually like our WR corps but it is close to what we needed for Sanchez three years ago, so that they could grow and develop with Mark. I will root my heart out for this team, but the writing is on the wall that the philosophy that we have employed in building this team will be its demise.
    I agree with you 100%

    This has been my thinking for the last three years!!!

    What sound team MOVES UP in the draft only to then basically begin to starve the very player they drafted...

    Answer = Either a dumb one or a team without a sound plan!!!

    Good Grief

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetsfellow View Post
    I tend to agree with johnny..........draft offensive weapons and not always BAP. DRaft for need, ie. WR, OT, etc.... Let the team gel and grow together. Stop changing things each and every year. Different receivers, linemen, offensive cooordinators. Stability is what was needed here along with a list of weapons for Sanchez to target and to have protection! Good QBs win championships........not defensive teams with no stars on offense.jf
    Ummm how come the Jets FO doesn't act like they know this!!!!!

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreamers View Post
    Yeah because there are a lot of teams with 5 young former 1st rounders starting on their O right now. We haven't traded for 2 WR that where supposed to be good and friggen LT. Or spent early round picks on OL, RB, and WR. Yea we should still be starting Ellis, Pouha, Devito, Abram Elam, Eric Barton, Scott. Pace, Dwight Lowery, Ty Law, Bryan Thomas, Kenyon Coleman, and Smith. Our D wasn't aging at all. We should totally use what Washington and Houston did over the last 10 years as a basis to build a team and not NE and Pitts.
    This is fine but then why move up in the draft

    Just stay where you were and get Freeman, what they did makes NO SENSE!!!

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB1089 View Post
    Your 1st round draft pick, by itself, is worth more than the combined value of your other 7 picks (go look at the draft value chart).

    Since Sanchez was drafted:

    1st rounders on Offense: 0
    1st rounders on Defense: 3
    This is what I was trying to explain to people that said we do not ignore our offense b.c we have chosen more offensive players than defensive players since 2009.

    The picks are weighted.

    The best defense is a good offense.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by DDNYjets View Post
    This is what I was trying to explain to people that said we do not ignore our offense b.c we have chosen more offensive players than defensive players since 2009.

    The picks are weighted.

    The best defense is a good offense.
    What skill players have the Jets drafted in the last 3 years that are difference makers? Hill? Thats probably it, and he isnt even a given at this point.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by sec.101row23 View Post
    What skill players have the Jets drafted in the last 3 years that are difference makers? Hill? Thats probably it, and he isnt even a given at this point.
    that's a problem. also, tanny hasn't drafted BAP for a few years until this year, so the overall talent/depth has been lacking. this preseason it's shown itself in lack of tackle depth. that's why you take BAP every draft and don't burn picks. look at what the jets did this draft alone. looks like coples, hill and demario davis could all become starters. and of the 2 safeties they got, maybe 1 becomes a starter. that's 4 positions addressed in 1 draft. then next year, maybe they draft a few tackles and a good rb. over time, your glaring needs are reduced b/c when guys leave or get injured you have guys on the bench who are ready to step up. then if you need to, you can target 1 or 2 positions in free agency that you didn't address in recent drafts.

  13. #13
    It's difficult to argue with the OP's basic premise....

    Rex, as a self proclaimed defensive genius, should be able to keep the Jets a top 10 defense even with sub-par talent

    While spending high picks and more money on offense - allowing the offense to be to 10 as well..

    Top 10 offense and top 10 defense makes for a VERY good team.

    With that said, I think Rex's ego is WAAAAAAY to big to even consider something like that. He wants to have the best defense in the league.

  14. #14
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    We did resign Brick, Holmes, and Mangold to enormous contracts, and Vlad just didn't work out, so to say they've ignored the offense is erroneous. We just picked Hill, and we need a RT. Besides that I think the biggest problem was the OC. Sanchez, along with the rest of the offense was over coached, and they have to learn to get back to using their instincts. We're only 3 weeks into unlearning everything Shotty taught them. Can we play some games now, and see how it goes?

  15. #15
    Some very good points made here on this post. I think the Jets figure they will upgrade the offense with veteran FA pick ups and build the core of the defense through the draft and then supplement the offense with some late round stabs at OL, RB and WR. Instead it should be the other way around with Rex's Defensive skills. No young QB can function at his best with the revolving door like it is with the Jets offensive coaches and players. They need stability!!!!

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by augustiniak View Post
    that's a problem. also, tanny hasn't drafted BAP for a few years until this year, so the overall talent/depth has been lacking. this preseason it's shown itself in lack of tackle depth. that's why you take BAP every draft and don't burn picks. look at what the jets did this draft alone. looks like coples, hill and demario davis could all become starters. and of the 2 safeties they got, maybe 1 becomes a starter. that's 4 positions addressed in 1 draft. then next year, maybe they draft a few tackles and a good rb. over time, your glaring needs are reduced b/c when guys leave or get injured you have guys on the bench who are ready to step up. then if you need to, you can target 1 or 2 positions in free agency that you didn't address in recent drafts.
    If you look around the league, you will see that the good teams have realized that this league is all about having play makers and making big plays. The days of the ball control ground and pound offenses are done. Teams know they have to have the ability to score, and score quickly if needed. You put too much pressure on your defense having to play perfect for your team to win. The trend seems to be to get up on your opponent early and force them to play catch up.

    People point to the Ravens and 49ers as teams that are ground and pound teams. Has anyone watched the Ravens this year? They have gone to a no huddle offense and are throwing the ball all over the place. The 49ers go out and add Manningham and Moss and draft LeMichael James. Jim Harbaugh said after the win against the Saints that a team HAS to have an ability to score and score quickly if needed. Just look at the last two minutes of their playoff game against the Saints. They had to go the length of field TWICE with less than 3 minutes to play. After that game the need to have several play makers became evident.

  17. #17
    I disagree. In my opinion, you want to be dominant on one side of the ball - not "good" on both. We could argue that in today's NFL, the Jets have chosen the wrong side of the ball to concentrate their efforts and resources; but, I do believe in the philosophy of allocating a disproportionate percentage of resources to one side of the ball.

    I also disagree with the premise that Rex Ryan is somehow smart enough to take middle-of-the-road talent and consistently turn it into a top ten defense. Does he run some creative blitzes? Sure. But the league, by and large, has caught up with them.

    Having Ray Lewis, Terrell Suggs, Haloti Ngata, Bart Scott in his prime, Adalius Thomas and Ed Reed (among others) on defense was just as much of – if not a bigger factor – than having Rex Ryan as defensive coordinator was in the Ravens success. Let’s face it, the Ravens haven’t exactly missed a beat on defense since Rex left town, finishing in the top 3 in points allowed each of the past three seasons (and top 3 twice in yards allowed).

    Like anything else, defense in the NFL is about talent. It's just as important to have playmakers on defense as it is on offense. And, I like the fact that Rex recognizes this.

    That said, yes, of course you have to commit enough resources to offense to be at least able to move the ball effectively. We’ll see in a few weeks if the Jets have done this or not.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnysd View Post

    When we decided to draft Sanchez we needed to also build the team around him. Drafting priority should have been, like what Polian did with a young Peyton, to surround Mark with as much talent and stability as possible.
    But folks here continue to post the stupidity that "he was put in the best position of any rookie QB in the history of the league--top defense, top O-line, top running game".

    Ridiculous.

    NEVER gave him true weapons, never did anything to DEVELOP him, focused exclusively on defense.

    Yet some folks here continue with the nonsense--"he was a top 5 pick making MILLIONS, he should have elevated everyone around him".

    Pure garbage. Thomas Jones did not develop Sanchez. The top D did not develop Sanchez. An aging LT did not develop Sanchez. Schotty and Cavanuagh did not deveolp Sanchez. Rex focusing SOLELY on the defense did not deveolp Sanchez. Taking away Edwards and Cotch did not develop Sanchez. Allowing the OLine last year to become PUTRID did not develop Sanchez. Making Greene you're number one RB did not develop Sanchez. Look at the weapons we've added--a POS in Holmes, an ex-con who couldn't get open in Burress, Bilal Powell, Chaz Schilens, an Aussie rugby player--we NEEDED a STUD RT so we went out and splashed with Tebow.

    This team has done NOTHING to DEVELOP Sanchez, stop repeating that idiotic mantra that "he had the top defense, OLine and running game." He needs WEAPONS--the team needed to be about HIM--NOT the defense.

    We pfailed.

    _

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Crable View Post
    I disagree. In my opinion, you want to be dominant on one side of the ball - not "good" on both. We could argue that in today's NFL, the Jets have chosen the wrong side of the ball to concentrate their efforts and resources; but, I do believe in the philosophy of allocating a disproportionate percentage of resources to one side of the ball.

    I also disagree with the premise that Rex Ryan is somehow smart enough to take middle-of-the-road talent and consistently turn it into a top ten defense. Does he run some creative blitzes? Sure. But the league, by and large, has caught up with them.

    Having Ray Lewis, Terrell Suggs, Haloti Ngata, Bart Scott in his prime, Adalius Thomas and Ed Reed (among others) on defense was just as much of – if not a bigger factor – than having Rex Ryan as defensive coordinator was in the Ravens success. Let’s face it, the Ravens haven’t exactly missed a beat on defense since Rex left town, finishing in the top 3 in points allowed each of the past three seasons (and top 3 twice in yards allowed).

    Like anything else, defense in the NFL is about talent. It's just as important to have playmakers on defense as it is on offense. And, I like the fact that Rex recognizes this.

    That said, yes, of course you have to commit enough resources to offense to be at least able to move the ball effectively. We’ll see in a few weeks if the Jets have done this or not.
    Good points Bob Crable. Here's something similar that I posted in another thread but moved it here since it seemed more appropriate:

    ************

    To win a Super Bowl a team has to be great and good. Great on one side of the ball and at least good on the other. There hasn't been a modern SB winner that didn't have at least that combo.

    Look at how well Brady has played over the last few years. Yet no SB wins because his defense was horrible. He only won when the Patriots D was good. They were 7th ranked defense in 2004 (win) and 28th in 2008 (loss).

    Same with Peyton Manning - all those fantastic Colts offensive machines were undone by a lackluster D. Win the SB with the 3rd ranked defense in 2006, don't make it all the other years (2009 was 24th).

    And the reverse holds true as well - Dilfer came in for the 2nd half of the 2000 season for Baltimore and was a JAG QB. But that was a big improvement over Tony Banks and just good enough to make the offense respectable to help out that ferocious D (#1 scoring defense by a large margin).

    Right now the Jets are getting close to a great defense. If Sanchez cuts down the turnovers and makes just a few more 3rd down completions, the team could go far. He doesn't have to be an elite QB, just a good one.

  20. #20
    Conspiracy theory of the day: We are in an unannounced rebuild period. Rex has built the defense and with another year or two of being on the field 3/4 of the game or more they will be tough as nails. Now he starts on the offense. Sanchez being knocked on his ass 5-10 times a game is toughening him up too.

    All that's left is to employ the suck for luck strategy to get at the top of the draft and by 2015 we'll be unbeatable! Our 47th anniversery is THE year for us!

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