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Thread: Who do you prefer between:

  1. #21
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    Who's better?

    Ryan vs. Flacco?
    Flacco- Bigger arm and more mobile, but really don't like either

    Eli vs. Big Ben?
    Super tough, Eli's the f-ing man, but I'd take Ben's size and mobility... barely

    Ware vs. JPP?
    Ware... No debate

    Fitz vs. Andre Johnson?
    Fitz... No debate

    Brees vs. ARodgers?
    Rodgers. Every day and Sunday

    DHarris vs. PWillis?
    PWill... Sorry fellow Jet fans, but this one's a no-brainer
    Last edited by chops44; 09-12-2012 at 02:32 PM.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenwichjetfan View Post
    So far, you're one of the few people who shares my feelings of Ryan.

    I've thought the dude was the most overrated QB in the league from the moment he was drafted 3rd overall. And all those feelings were confirmed watching him throw in his first preseason game in the NFL, and have become exacerbated through his playoff loses.

    Every time I see him, I feel for falcons fans, because he reminds me of Chad. The guy can't beat good defenses because he has no arm. He's got great weapons, tons of heart, is highly cerebral, but won't be successful in the post season because the guy simply can't get the ball downfield, and DCs take advantage of it the way Rex has feasted on Pennington and Fitzpatrick.
    OMG. I feel that way to a T. Ryan is a better version of Pennington and will never win in this league.

  3. #23
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    You have to put Calvin Johnson in the Fitzpatrick debate, Andre Johnson is clearly a step or two down from those two.

    So megatron or Fitz who do you got.

    I have Calvin slightly because of his size, both of them are uncoverable with a decent QB throwing to them.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenwichjetfan View Post
    So far, you're one of the few people who shares my feelings of Ryan.

    I've thought the dude was the most overrated QB in the league from the moment he was drafted 3rd overall. And all those feelings were confirmed watching him throw in his first preseason game in the NFL, and have become exacerbated through his playoff loses.

    Every time I see him, I feel for falcons fans, because he reminds me of Chad. The guy can't beat good defenses because he has no arm. He's got great weapons, tons of heart, is highly cerebral, but won't be successful in the post season because the guy simply can't get the ball downfield, and DCs take advantage of it the way Rex has feasted on Pennington and Fitzpatrick.

    Part of this is Homerish as I went to BC and want to defend Ryan, but at the end of the day these are simply FACTS

    Playoff Stats
    Ryan: 63% 584 yards 3 TDs 4 Ints QB Rating 71
    Flacco: 54% 1550 yards 8 TDs 8 Ints QB Rating 70

    Regular Season

    Flacco: 61% 14115 82 TDs 46 INTs
    Ryan: 61% 14537 98 TDs 46 INTs

    Its also important to note, that Ryan's 3 playoff losses have come against the eventual NFC representative in the SB, 2 of which (GB and NYG) won. While for flacco, in 3 of his playoff wins he completed 50% or below of his passes. Those seasons, when they were eventually knocked out, it was directly BECAUSE of flacco as he threw for 0 TDs and 5 INTs in the 2 losses.

    To say its a landslide for Flacco, is ridiculous. Football is a team game....playoff wins arent the only measure, especially when flacco had the Ravens DEF bailing him out.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by PETER PAT View Post
    You have to put Calvin Johnson in the Fitzpatrick debate, Andre Johnson is clearly a step or two down from those two.

    So megatron or Fitz who do you got.

    I have Calvin slightly because of his size, both of them are uncoverable with a decent QB throwing to them.
    In my opinion it's Calvin and everyone else. He's done it with good QBs and ****ty QBs. Total beast. I figured that's why he left him out.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by PETER PAT View Post
    You have to put Calvin Johnson in the Fitzpatrick debate, Andre Johnson is clearly a step or two down from those two.

    So megatron or Fitz who do you got.

    I have Calvin slightly because of his size, both of them are uncoverable with a decent QB throwing to them.

    I don't think Megatron should be in that debate because then there wouldn't be one.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by chops44 View Post
    I don't think Megatron should be in that debate because then there wouldn't be one.
    Exactly.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglenj View Post
    Part of this is Homerish as I went to BC and want to defend Ryan, but at the end of the day these are simply FACTS

    Playoff Stats
    Ryan: 63% 584 yards 3 TDs 4 Ints QB Rating 71
    Flacco: 54% 1550 yards 8 TDs 8 Ints QB Rating 70

    Regular Season

    Flacco: 61% 14115 82 TDs 46 INTs
    Ryan: 61% 14537 98 TDs 46 INTs

    Its also important to note, that Ryan's 3 playoff losses have come against the eventual NFC representative in the SB, 2 of which (GB and NYG) won. While for flacco, in 3 of his playoff wins he completed 50% or below of his passes. Those seasons, when they were eventually knocked out, it was directly BECAUSE of flacco as he threw for 0 TDs and 5 INTs in the 2 losses.

    To say its a landslide for Flacco, is ridiculous. Football is a team game....playoff wins arent the only measure, especially when flacco had the Ravens DEF bailing him out.
    It comes down to this: Matt Ryan has no arm. You can throw all the stats comparisons out there that you like, but it will be extremely difficult for him to beat three consecutive playoff teams to win a Super Bowl. If he has to go on the road or anywhere with inclement weather? Forget it.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by MCBNY View Post
    It comes down to this: Matt Ryan has no arm. You can throw all the stats comparisons out there that you like, but it will be extremely difficult for him to beat three consecutive playoff teams to win a Super Bowl. If he has to go on the road or anywhere with inclement weather? Forget it.
    I shouldnt forget, that even when it comes to non-jet players, posters often have no clue.

    From his NFL scouting report on ESPN
    He has a good arm and is athletic enough to escape the rush and extend the pocket

    This is a report comparing Andrew Luck, the best QB prospect in 10 years to Ryan
    "Luck compares to Peyton Manning and Matt Ryan in this area (arm strength). Manning is one of the all-time greats and Ryan one of the up-and-coming passers in the league, so I'm not worried." -- Todd McShay

    This is from NFL Draft101
    A vocal leader in the huddle. Arm strength is not spectacular but strong enough. Not a threat to run the ball , but scrambles extremely well. Solid with his technique.

    Let me know if that is enough yet.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by PatsFanTX View Post
    I thought AJ was Andre Johnson.

    No way Green better than Fitz.
    +1

    Fitzgerald has a QB like Rodgers/Brees/Brady, and we're talking unbelievable production.

  11. #31
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    Oh, and even though he played in boston in consistenly inclement weather, i will just take the coldest game he played as a senior, which was in Mass November 24....he threw for 369 yards and 3 tds.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglenj View Post

    I shouldnt forget, that even when it comes to non-jet players, posters often have no clue.

    From his NFL scouting report on ESPN
    He has a good arm and is athletic enough to escape the rush and extend the pocket

    This is a report comparing Andrew Luck, the best QB prospect in 10 years to Ryan
    "Luck compares to Peyton Manning and Matt Ryan in this area (arm strength). Manning is one of the all-time greats and Ryan one of the up-and-coming passers in the league, so I'm not worried." -- Todd McShay

    This is from NFL Draft101
    A vocal leader in the huddle. Arm strength is not spectacular but strong enough. Not a threat to run the ball , but scrambles extremely well. Solid with his technique.

    Let me know if that is enough yet.
    It might be enough for you and the scouts. I'm going on my own eyes and gut instinct. I think Matt Ryan will never get it done, and it doesn't matter what the stats say to me. We can agree to disagree.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by MCBNY View Post
    It might be enough for you and the scouts. I'm going on my own eyes and gut instinct. I think Matt Ryan will never get it done, and it doesn't matter what the stats say to me. We can agree to disagree.
    If you think he wont get it done, then thats fine with me and we can agree to disagree

    But to question physical tools, especially arm strength, is simply an incorrect fact in this particular instance

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglenj View Post
    Part of this is Homerish as I went to BC and want to defend Ryan, but at the end of the day these are simply FACTS

    Playoff Stats
    Ryan: 63% 584 yards 3 TDs 4 Ints QB Rati ng 71
    Flacco: 54% 1550 yards 8 TDs 8 Ints QB Rating 70

    Regular Season

    Flacco: 61% 14115 82 TDs 46 INTs
    Ryan: 61% 14537 98 TDs 46 INTs
    When mentioning those stats, I believe it would also be prudent to disclose that Ryan was throwing to Roddy White, Tony Gonzo, and last year JJones. He also had a legit rushing attack, and hasn't had a terrible defense- the way many Ryan supporters (not necessarily you) make it out to be.

    Flacco on the other hand, had Ray Rice and JAGs, until 2010 when he finally got Boldin. But he did have the defense.

    But when talking numbers in the playoffs, having a quality defense doesn't help your numbers (of course there are intangible ways a defense can help an offense, but for simplicity...). Ryan has only played in three games, missing the playoffs in his sophomore year. Flacco on the other hand, has played in 3x that many playoff games. Now of course, it's a team game, and his defense helped get him into so many games.

    However, once he was in, regardless of whether it was because of him or the defense, he still had to play. And in 3 times the playoff games of Ryan, Flacco has 3x the yards, 2.7x the TDs, and only 2x the ints, combining for a passer rating of only 1 point less than Ryan.

    Its also important to note, that Ryan's 3 playoff losses have come against the eventual NFC representative in the SB, 2 of which (GB and NYG) won. While for flacco, in 3 of his playoff wins he completed 50% or below of his passes. Those seasons, when they were eventually knocked out, it was directly BECAUSE of flacco as he threw for 0 TDs and 5 INTs in the 2 losses.
    Again, it's also prudent to note that Flacco's four playoff losses have come against the eventual AFC representative in the SB, 1 of which won. And while you have a point about Flacco's first two years in the playoffs, the last two years, Flacco had tremendous post seasons (averaging a 95.55 rating over four games including two losses) DESPITE his team. In 2010, he played a monster final game against the steelers only to have Ray Rice and some other guy fumble it away, and threw a great pass to Housh at the end to tie the game, but he dropped it. And last year, between Lee Evans drop, and Cundiff's miss, we all know what happened there.

    Again, Flacco was the strength of his team the past two postseasons, something we haven't seen yet from Ryan.

    Lastly, while some scouts may say he's got a good enough arm, some scouts also said that Sanchez didn't have adequate arm strength to make all the throws. And I've got news for those scouts...Sanchez throws a hell of a ball all over the field. With Ryan, sure he's got a better arm than Chad, but that's not saying much. Other than that, he's got it all.

    So yes, you posted facts, but they were slightly incomplete. With the complete facts on the board, without bias (I'm a UCONN grad, don't favor Delaware or BC), and with my own eye test (that arm doesn't give me the confidence to get it done), I still maintain that Ryan is overrated, and Flacco is the clear winner here.

    But dude, you're from BC so it's cool that you'd stick up for your guy...Just like I'll forever stick up for Ray Ray even though he helped those god damn celtics win a championship.
    Last edited by greenwichjetfan; 09-12-2012 at 04:11 PM.

  15. #35
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    Ryan vs. Flacco?

    Eli vs. Big Ben?

    Ware vs. JPP?

    Fitz vs. Andre Johnson?

    Brees vs. ARodgers?

    DHarris vs. PWillis? Was this a serious question?

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenwichjetfan View Post
    To quell the lull of midweek, lets talk rankings.

    Who's better?

    Eli vs. Big Ben?
    how can Jet fans not vote for Eli, the ELITE Patriot Killer ... this year it's our turn

  17. #37
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    For everyone claiming that comparing DHarris to PWillis is juvenile:

    -David Harris has more sacks and ints over the last three years, and is more durable than Willis.

    -Harris has 70 less snaps than Willis (played on better teams), and accounted for 65 less tackles than Willis over three years.
    -However, Harris still has a better stop rate percentage, and his stops were closer to the line of scrimmage than PWillis' (indicating that willis made tackles further downfield).

    **Last, and most importantly: Willis, until last year, played on fairly bad teams where the defense was on the field way more than the offense, and he was tasked with being the big playmaker...and it shows in the numbers.

    -Over the last three years, Willis was responsible for an average of 17.6% of the plays he made on defense for his team. Contrast that to Harris who played in less games and had better personnel around him, leading to an impact of 14.6% of the team's plays over three years.
    -Last year, when Willis' defense finally played up to the level the Jets have been playing at for three years, Willis' tackles production in the time he was actually on the field dropped off a dramatic 22.5% (after accounting for the time he missed due to injuries).

    Don't believe me? Check for yourself:
    http://www.footballoutsiders.com/pla...4/david-harris
    http://www.footballoutsiders.com/pla...patrick-willis

    After all that, just by going with the eye test, I'd go with Willis over Hitman, but it is definitely as close as I thought it was, and not the joke the others on here have made it out to be.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenwichjetfan View Post
    When mentioning those stats, I believe it would also be prudent to disclose that Ryan was throwing to Roddy White, Tony Gonzo, and last year JJones. He also had a legit rushing attack, and hasn't had a terrible defense- the way many Ryan supporters (not necessarily you) make it out to be.

    Flacco on the other hand, had Ray Rice and JAGs, until 2010 when he finally got Boldin. But he did have the defense.

    But when talking numbers in the playoffs, having a quality defense doesn't help your numbers (of course there are intangible ways a defense can help an offense, but for simplicity...). Ryan has only played in three games, missing the playoffs in his sophomore year. Flacco on the other hand, has played in 3x that many playoff games. Now of course, it's a team game, and his defense helped get him into so many games.

    However, once he was in, regardless of whether it was because of him or the defense, he still had to play. And in 3 times the playoff games of Ryan, Flacco has 3x the yards, 2.7x the TDs, and only 2x the ints, combining for a passer rating of only 1 point less than Ryan.



    Again, it's also prudent to note that Flacco's four playoff losses have come against the eventual AFC representative in the SB, 1 of which won. And while you have a point about Flacco's first two years in the playoffs, the last two years, Flacco had tremendous post seasons (averaging a 95.55 rating over four games including two losses) DESPITE his team. In 2010, he played a monster final game against the steelers only to have Ray Rice and some other guy fumble it away, and threw a great pass to Housh at the end to tie the game, but he dropped it. And last year, between Lee Evans drop, and Cundiff's miss, we all know what happened there.

    Again, Flacco was the strength of his team the past two postseasons, something we haven't seen yet from Ryan.

    Lastly, while some scouts may say he's got a good enough arm, some scouts also said that Sanchez didn't have adequate arm strength to make all the throws. And I've got news for those scouts...Sanchez throws a hell of a ball all over the field. With Ryan, sure he's got a better arm than Chad, but that's not saying much. Other than that, he's got it all.

    So yes, you posted facts, but they were slightly incomplete. With the complete facts on the board, without bias (I'm a UCONN grad, don't favor Delaware or BC), and with my own eye test (that arm doesn't give me the confidence to get it done), I still maintain that Ryan is overrated, and Flacco is the clear winner here.

    But dude, you're from BC so it's cool that you'd stick up for your guy...Just like I'll forever stick up for Ray Ray even though he helped those god damn celtics win a championship.
    Fair and intelligent response!

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenwichjetfan View Post
    To quell the lull of midweek, lets talk rankings.

    Who's better?

    Ryan vs. Flacco?

    Eli vs. Big Ben?

    Ware vs. JPP?

    Fitz vs. Andre Johnson?

    Brees vs. ARodgers?

    DHarris vs. PWillis?
    ---------------------------------

    Post your own along with your answers.
    Flacco...he's Matty "Dry Ice"...until he actually does something in the playoffs.

    Eli...not as mobile, but he TWICE took inferior teams to the Supe, and beat the Pats each time. I like Big Ben...but...Steelers never had to face the BB/Brady led Pats, and beat them, every time they made it to the Supe.

    JPP...close...but at 23, in only his 3rd year, JPP's upside gives him a chance to be even more special then Ware.

    Fitz...by a hair. What would his stats be, if he had a quality QB throwing to him.

    Rodgers...right now he's at his peak. Has played with very little run support, while Brees has had plenty. And how well would Brees do, if he had to play outdoors at Lambeau...especially in Nov-Jan.

    Willis...the Hitman is good...but Willis is very very good.

  20. #40
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    New leg of choices:

    Cutler vs. Sanchez (try to keep the scope of their careers and not just the most recent game both have played)

    Revis vs. Ware

    Stafford vs. Cam Newton (put them both on the browns for the exercise)

    ADP vs Arian Foster?

    Belichick vs. Rex (oh boy this should be fun...put em both on the neutral Titans for this one)

    DHarris vs. PWillis? (yes this is a serious question, and I'm leaving it up so that I can publicly stick up for the Hitman, and prove that he's not to be dismissed so callously)

    This is my own analysis...the data was taken from here.
    http://www.footballoutsiders.com/pla...4/david-harris
    http://www.footballoutsiders.com/pla...patrick-willis

    -David Harris has more sacks and ints over the last three years, and is more durable than Willis.

    -Harris has 70 less snaps than Willis (played on better teams), and accounted for 65 less tackles than Willis over three years. However, Harris still has a better stop rate percentage, and his stops were closer to the line of scrimmage than PWillis' (indicating that Willis' tackle numbers may be inflated due to him stepping out of his responsibility and making plays down the field after his teammates were unable to).

    -Over the last three years, Willis was responsible for an average of 17.6% of the plays he made on defense for his team. Contrast that to Harris who played in less games and had better personnel around him, leading to an impact of 14.6% of the team's plays over three years.

    -Last year, when Willis' defense finally played up to the level the Jets have been playing at for three years, Willis' tackles production in the time he was actually on the field dropped off a dramatic 22.5% (after accounting for the time he missed due to injuries).

    Just by going with the eye test, I'd go with Willis over Hitman, but it is definitely as close as I thought it was, and not the joke the others on here have made it out to be.
    ---------------------------------

    Post your own along with your answers.
    Last edited by greenwichjetfan; 09-15-2012 at 10:03 AM.

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