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Thread: DRAFT or Player development

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by C Mart View Post
    Do we know that? Maybe he and his staff were better at developing the players.

    Tanny and the same scouting staff were in place when Mangini was HC.

    And Tanny had final say,if needed, on the picks when Mangini was HC
    We dont BUT the draft was better under him..... and as you say, HE was the only difference.

    I dont mean mangini per se ( I use him as an example) BUT a REAL football mind. If Tuna was younger, someone like him.

  2. #22
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    [QUOTE=C Mart;4614362]You have to identify the players drafted and round and that they weren't drafted where they were supposed to be i.e. "reaches", "undraftable" per the so called "draft experts".

    Like I said earlier..Sanchez was regarded as a top 10 - mid 1st rounder per "the experts"..So he was drafted where he should have been...

    If they selected Greg McElroy in the 1st round (when he wasn't close to having a 1st round grade per the "draft experts") that's then a GM/Scouting issue

    Mo Wilk had a mid-low 1st round grade per the "draft experts" so he was drafted where his grade reportedly was..

    Is it completely the GM and scouts fault if a guy is drafted where he's supposed to but doesn't turn into a player?[/QUOTE]

    Yes. That is their job. Obviously, GM's cannot hit every player, but they need to be graded on how their picks (in total) and trades do vs. their competitors.

    If a player is rated as a top 10 player and you take him 10th, you have not done your job. The GM's job is to find guys in the 2nd and 3rd rounds who will play like 1st round picks. The GM's job is to find guys in the late rounds that will be contributors to the team.

    Tanny is a failure - it's as simple as that.

    It was obvious that this team needed an immediate talent upgrade on offense and he did nothing to help. While Hill has enormous potential, stats say 1st year WR's don't contribute much.

  3. #23
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    Shouldn't our GM and scouts be better than the "experts" who are on TV or in print media? There is a reason why those guys aren't working in the NFL, right?

    I think we should hold our FO and scouts to a higher standard than the so called "experts". I think if you are working for an NFL team you have more resources to make a better decision therefore you should make a better decision.



    BTW all of this is moot. Rex and Tanny are going nowhere. Woody is in the black. All is good in the world.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by southparkcpa View Post
    Outside Revis, Mangold and Ill count in the Brick too..not sure we have any standout or Elite Players.
    Now you're mixing your issues.

    In the OP you specificly mentioned late rounders. Now, you're talking about top-end 1st rounders.

    As I said, to be able to make any kind of evaluation, I'd have to know what every other "Elite" team did, and why (position of need or BAP) over the same period before I would simply declare our drafting to be sub-par.

    My own opinion is our drafting is fine, a few busts (Ducasse especially, and the DE never to be named) but generally pretty solid top to bottom talent wise. Jets Fans expectations re: the draft are simply unrealistic, quite massively so, IMO. It's almost as if some expect us to draft 7 future HOF'ers every year, and have depth 4 men deep at every position.

    I'm not sure logical conversation is even possible right now at J.I. tbqh. Surrendering Hysteria and the usual SOJF "Fire Everyone!" peasants with torches and pitchforks thing is already in full swing, 3 weeks in at 2-1 with a lost Revis to injury.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    Now you're mixing your issues.

    In the OP you specificly mentioned late rounders. Now, you're talking about top-end 1st rounders.

    As I said, to be able to make any kind of evaluation, I'd have to know what every other "Elite" team did, and why (position of need or BAP) over the same period before I would simply declare our drafting to be sub-par.

    My own opinion is our drafting is fine, a few busts (Ducasse especially, and the DE never to be named) but generally pretty solid top to bottom talent wise. Jets Fans expectations re: the draft are simply unrealistic, quite massively so, IMO. It's almost as if some expect us to draft 7 future HOF'ers every year, and have depth 4 men deep at every position.

    I'm not sure logical conversation is even possible right now at J.I. tbqh. Surrendering Hysteria and the usual SOJF "Fire Everyone!" peasants with torches and pitchforks thing is already in full swing, 3 weeks in at 2-1 with a lost Revis to injury.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    Now you're mixing your issues.

    In the OP you specificly mentioned late rounders. Now, you're talking about top-end 1st rounders.

    As I said, to be able to make any kind of evaluation, I'd have to know what every other "Elite" team did, and why (position of need or BAP) over the same period before I would simply declare our drafting to be sub-par.

    My own opinion is our drafting is fine, a few busts (Ducasse especially, and the DE never to be named) but generally pretty solid top to bottom talent wise. Jets Fans expectations re: the draft are simply unrealistic, quite massively so, IMO. It's almost as if some expect us to draft 7 future HOF'ers every year, and have depth 4 men deep at every position.

    I'm not sure logical conversation is even possible right now at J.I. tbqh. Surrendering Hysteria and the usual SOJF "Fire Everyone!" peasants with torches and pitchforks thing is already in full swing, 3 weeks in at 2-1 with a lost Revis to injury.
    I tried to be clear as I think of (right or wrong) the draft as 2 pieces. Rounds 1 to 4 and 5 and after.


    the success rate of rounds 1 to 4 should clearly be higher than 5 and after BUT based on what we have seen, I am not certain we have any standout players even from 2009. Sanchez, Greene I consider solid. So i did not mention 2009.

    But 2010 and after..... I disagree. name a player in those drafts that is a pro bowler or even a REAL SOLID player. Wilson and Wilkerson perhaps? kerley is showing signs.

    Bottom line is you think the drafting is fine.... OK. Your vote is in.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Vader View Post
    Wilkerson is already one of the best 34 DEs in the league...like top 3 good.
    No. Just no.

    He's not there yet.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by JB1089 View Post
    No. Just no.

    He's not there yet.
    he meant in the top 34. NOT 3-4

    Moe hasn't had a sack since mid last season.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    Now you're mixing your issues.

    In the OP you specificly mentioned late rounders. Now, you're talking about top-end 1st rounders.

    As I said, to be able to make any kind of evaluation, I'd have to know what every other "Elite" team did, and why (position of need or BAP) over the same period before I would simply declare our drafting to be sub-par.

    My own opinion is our drafting is fine, a few busts (Ducasse especially, and the DE never to be named) but generally pretty solid top to bottom talent wise. Jets Fans expectations re: the draft are simply unrealistic, quite massively so, IMO. It's almost as if some expect us to draft 7 future HOF'ers every year, and have depth 4 men deep at every position.

    I'm not sure logical conversation is even possible right now at J.I. tbqh. Surrendering Hysteria and the usual SOJF "Fire Everyone!" peasants with torches and pitchforks thing is already in full swing, 3 weeks in at 2-1 with a lost Revis to injury.
    i'm beginning to think that rex is more of a problem than tanny. we all saw powell look very spry (especially compared to greene), we saw coples look good in preseason, mcknight looks to be healthy enough to run a few short routes, etc, yet these guys have had much difficulty getting on the field. at a certain point you have to blame the coaches for not playing demario davis, coples, powell, mcknight, and letting bryan thomas and greene decide the games. it's not as if the jets have such depth and/or talent at these positions to justify not playing the rookies.

    the underlying issue is that rex wants to win now, more than he wants to develop the talent tanny provides him, so that he can continue to do what he wants and keep his job. he's not willing to risk having a rookie blow an assignment, he'd rather have his slower veterans execute his defense even if that sacrifices speed/big play potential. the problems occur when his veterans can't execute the gameplan (greene, thomas, scott, eric smith) and then the subs he puts in have not had enough experience to draw upon when they're brought in. now, he's got no revis back there to cover half the field so he needs a pass rush more than at any other time since he became HC.

    and on offense, he's got 1 veteran wr in holmes and everyone else in the first 3 games has less game experience, combined, then a 5 yr veteran on any other team. the offense is so inexperienced and i think this is actually the first year where sanchez is throwing more to spots but now he's got, essentially, a bunch of rookies out there who don't know the playbook nearly as well. this is worsened with keller out. too many times there's nowhere to go with the ball and when they run greene early in the downs they produce 3rd and longs too often.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by southparkcpa View Post
    We dont BUT the draft was better under him..... and as you say, HE was the only difference.

    I dont mean mangini per se ( I use him as an example) BUT a REAL football mind. If Tuna was younger, someone like him.
    No, he's wasn't/not...It's now Rex and his staff on Sundays...Mangini and Rex don't "run the drafts"..they obviously have input but the draft is/was Clinkscales, his scouts, Bradway, his staff and obviously Tanny.

    Mangini was the HC...Just as Rex is.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by southparkcpa View Post
    I tried to be clear as I think of (right or wrong) the draft as 2 pieces. Rounds 1 to 4 and 5 and after.


    the success rate of rounds 1 to 4 should clearly be higher than 5 and after BUT based on what we have seen, I am not certain we have any standout players even from 2009. Sanchez, Greene I consider solid. So i did not mention 2009.

    Bot 2010 and after..... I disagree. name a player in those drafts that is a pro bowler or even a REAL SOLID player. Wilson and Wilkerson perhaps? kerley is showing signs.
    Wilson is a starting CB. You may think he sucks, but he's beat out all comers for the slot CB role thus far, and has Revis (lolnot beatinghimout) and Cromarie (a legit #1 in the NFL) ahead of him.....

    McKnight is a Pro-Bowl KR, and I maintain he should get more carries in the backfield.

    Powell is our future (soon) #1 RB, of that I'm now convinced given Greene's poor play.

    Kerley is a legit starting #2/Slot WR and PR, despite the fans endless hate and doubts over anyone not named "Braylon Mc Burress".

    McElroy is our #2 (really #2) QB.

    Wilkerson is a starter quality player.

    Connor is a good blocking FB...the value of which is of course questionable.

    Ducasse is the bust of 2010/2011. A total bust at this point.

    So lets get down to it........What is the solution you see here? Fire Tanny, fire Rex and replace with whom for 2012?
    Last edited by Warfish; 09-25-2012 at 02:31 PM.

  12. #32
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    IMO, Rex and Mangini had more control over the Jets drafts than most HCs do on their teams. I feel comfortably saying that.

    Rex, "My handpicked . . . ","That was a Tannenbaum pick". Telling Coples he was picking him and actually admitting it.

    I have heard Tanny admit to Fatty that he is not a great talent evaluator and that he relies on his staff.

    No smoking gun for proof, but if you connect the dots you will see that our HCs have had a lot of say in the draft. Not saying the other guys' opinions don't matter.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by southparkcpa View Post
    he meant in the top 34. NOT 3-4

    Moe hasn't had a sack since mid last season.

    If you consider Week 16 "mid last season," then you are absolutely correct.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by DDNYjets View Post
    IMO, Rex and Mangini had more control over the Jets drafts than most HCs do on their teams. I feel comfortably saying that.

    Rex, "My handpicked . . . ","That was a Tannenbaum pick". Telling Coples he was picking him and actually admitting it.

    I have heard Tanny admit to Fatty that he is not a great talent evaluator and that he relies on his staff.

    No smoking gun for proof, but if you connect the dots you will see that our HCs have had a lot of say in the draft. Not saying the other guys' opinions don't matter.
    That doesn't mean it's their picks..We all know Rex talks out his ass..Tanny has admitted he takes in everyone's opinion. And only if there are various opinions on the pick itself then he has the final say...

    This has been posted here before but as a refresher...

    Top secret: Inside the Jets' war room

    http://espn.go.com/new-york/nfl/story/_/id/7838319/new-york-jets-draft-room-place-debate-decide-think-good-thoughts

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    Wilson is a starting CB. You may think he sucks, but he's beat out all comers for the slot CB role thus far, and has Revis (lolnot beatinghimout) and Cromarie (a legit #1 in the NFL) ahead of him.....

    McKnight is a Pro-Bowl KR, and I maintain he should get more carries in the backfield.

    Powell is our future (soon) #1 RB, of that I'm now convinced given Greene's poor play.

    Kerley is a legit starting #2/Slot WR and PR, despite the fans endless hate and doubts over anyone not named "Braylon Mc Burress".

    McElroy is our #2 (really #2) QB.

    Wilkerson is a starter quality player.

    Connor is a good blocking FB...the value of which is of course questionable.

    Ducasse is the bust of 2010/2011. A total bust at this point.

    So lets get down to it........What is the solution you see here? FirTanny, fire Rex and replace with whom for 2012?

    I like REX, top 1 /3 in the league and will get better. Reading you list above simply convinces me we should do better. Our draft is average at best. many don't even see that as a problem. SARs Met fan example right now. I am a firm believer good teams build through the draft. We trade away picks and should have more to show for our draft over 3 years.
    The Favre transaction is an example....he was never going to stay here. Tebow , same thing. SB teams don't do what we do.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by southparkcpa View Post
    I like REX, top 1 /3 in the league and will get better. Reading you list above simply convinces me we should do better. Our draft is average at best. many don't even see that as a problem. SARs Met fan example right now. I am a firm believer good teams build through the draft. We trade away picks and should have more to show for our draft over 3 years.
    The Favre transaction is an example....he was never going to stay here. Tebow , same thing. SB teams don't do what we do.
    Yet you've not been able, nor even tried, to show where an "elite" "Super Bowl Team" has been drafting better or more consistently as yet.

    Again, the bolster of your argument is rather strait forward. Show us 10-15 teams who have, over the same period, been consistently better at drafting consitently better players in similar position and with similar positional needs, placing us in the bottom half of the NFL in drafting.

    At the very least show us an "Elite" "Super Bowl Team" who has consistently used 6th and 7th round picks to draft all-pro starters that constributed meaningfully and regularly to that team BEING elite and Super Bowly.

    Personally, I think you've vastly oversimplifying personal decision in the NFL environment, where UDFA, free agents and trades also account for so much depth transactions, and 6th and 7th rounders are not common all-pro players, even for elite drafting teams. The Pats may have 49 picks evey year, but those 6th and 7th are not becoming all-pros in general.

    If you'd like bad drafting, lets go back to the Parcells Era, and the (mostly) bags of fails he picked each year.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    Yet you've not been able, nor even tried, to show where an "elite" "Super Bowl Team" has been drafting better or more consistently as yet.

    Again, the bolster of your argument is rather strait forward. Show us 10-15 teams who have, over the same period, been consistently better at drafting consitently better players in similar position and with similar positional needs, placing us in the bottom half of the NFL in drafting.

    At the very least show us an "Elite" "Super Bowl Team" who has consistently used 6th and 7th round picks to draft all-pro starters that constributed meaningfully and regularly to that team BEING elite and Super Bowly.

    Personally, I think you've vastly oversimplifying personal decision in the NFL environment, where UDFA, free agents and trades also account for so much depth transactions, and 6th and 7th rounders are not common all-pro players, even for elite drafting teams. The Pats may have 49 picks evey year, but those 6th and 7th are not becoming all-pros in general.

    If you'd like bad drafting, lets go back to the Parcells Era, and the (mostly) bags of fails he picked each year.
    The Giants, and it is not even close.

  18. #38
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    [QUOTE=Warfish;4614601]Wilson is a starting CB. You may think he sucks, but he's beat out all comers for the slot CB role thus far, and has Revis (lolnot beatinghimout) and Cromarie (a legit #1 in the NFL) ahead of him.....

    McKnight is a Pro-Bowl KR, and I maintain he should get more carries in the backfield.

    Powell is our future (soon) #1 RB, of that I'm now convinced given Greene's poor play.

    Kerley is a legit starting #2/Slot WR and PR, despite the fans endless hate and doubts over anyone not named "Braylon Mc Burress".

    McElroy is our #2 (really #2) QB.

    Wilkerson is a starter quality player.

    Connor is a good blocking FB...the value of which is of course questionable.

    Ducasse is the bust of 2010/2011. A total bust at this point.

    so explain whats wrong here you have a bunch of young guys that cant get on the field because there a veternas that are better than they are ahead of them this is how you make avery good deep team you build and build ducase will be the starting right tackle next year thats a lock he maybe the starter very soon he is playing well and gives us needed size on the line we may have the smallest o line in the league the dol fags all weigh over 325 except for the 315 lb center thats why we are having problems in short yardage so far this season

    ok so look at 2008 draft and it was a washout execpt for dustin keller and lowery giving us some quality play. that was a very weak draft bad year dor tanny and company

    2009 much better you got the winningest qb in the historyy of the team thats still growing he is not perfect but he was also not the number player chosen overall so with only 3 picks you have your starting qb starting running back for how much longer i dont know bue he is servicable and will have a role here and your starting guard and brandon moores replacment as his hips are gone

    so is tanny doing that bad a job no is he killing no but if wilkerson and coples and hill and ellis not to mention powell and kerley who both seem to be taking off this year become special like revis freguson and mangold we are set i think wilkerson will be like sean ellis for us steady and will flash in big games
    Last edited by joe810; 09-25-2012 at 03:51 PM.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by sec.101row23 View Post
    The Giants, and it is not even close.
    Agree to disagree, I think they're one of the least talented, most QB-dependant, luckiest teams in the NFL in recent years. I would not hold them up as some example of great and consistent late-draft strategy myself, but to each their own I suppose.

    Take away Eli, and they go from an 8-8 talent team that got streaky, to a 2-3 win team.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    Agree to disagree, I think they're one of the least talented, most QB-dependant, luckiest teams in the NFL in recent years. I would not hold them up as some example of great and consistent late-draft strategy myself, but to each their own I suppose.

    Take away Eli, and they go from an 8-8 talent team that got streaky, to a 2-3 win team.
    I didnt know you were talking about late rounds. As far as their overall drafts they have been very good at drafting impact players that contribute to their team.

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