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Thread: Romney wants to get rid of PBS......

  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by Trades View Post
    As a Vet myself I would like to add that even though the liberals will never admit it the American military and American soldiers do more humanitarian missions than "war" missions.
    After the Sunami in Indonesia while the Indonesian government was intentionally keeping aid from some of the hardest hit regions for their own political reasons the US Navy was the first on the scene bringing in food and medicine in what was one of the worst natural dissasters of our lifetime.

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Winstonbiggs View Post
    You should read all quiet on the Western Front. The soldier for any country for the most part deserves respect. Putting your life on the line for your country, your fellow citizens is something that should always be respected.
    This.

    And I'll go one further, the average German Infantryman in WWII does, IMO, deserve that same respect.

    Not the S.S. Political Combat Units. Not the Einsatzgruppen. Not the guards at the Death Camps.

    But the average, combat, soldier in the Wehrmacht? Yes, even though Germany was clearly an aggressor nationstate led by a Tyrant dictator, the soldiers were still fighting for their country, same as our do and did. And just like ours, there is a meaningful differentiation between fighting for your country and the fight that your country chooses to put you, the soldier, into. I'd also add that one cannot seperate the entirety of the circumstances that led to WWII in Germany from the motivations of the average soldier to take up arms and fight. It's far more complicated than mere "good and evil" on that level of discussion.

    I doubt this will get much agreement, and I understand, it's far easier to pain in broad, wide, general strokes, often self-serving Nationlaistic strokes at that. Like they say, one Nations Heroes is another Nations invading evil.

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyStylez

    BTW I believe that had JFK been alive, Vietnam would've never happened. For some in power, his death sure was rather convenient.
    Then you have a very loose, naive, and embarrassing grasp on history.

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    This.

    And I'll go one further, the average German Infantryman in WWII does, IMO, deserve that same respect.

    Not the S.S. Political Combat Units. Not the Einsatzgruppen. Not the guards at the Death Camps.

    But the average, combat, soldier in the Wehrmacht? Yes, even though Germany was clearly an aggressor nationstate led by a Tyrant dictator, the soldiers were still fighting for their country, same as our do and did. And just like ours, there is a meaningful differentiation between fighting for your country and the fight that your country chooses to put you, the soldier, into.
    I'll agree, in general terms. But Nazi Germany is somewhat special circumstances; if the soldier had both an awareness of what his country was doing and any choice in the matter . . . no, I can't respect that. I can respect the dedication to duty, the willingness to sacrifice. But I can't respect the choice to place those qualities in the service of a nation engaged in genocide.

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Bonhomme Richard View Post
    Then you have a very loose, naive, and embarrassing grasp on history.
    You're saying he's no Jack Kennedy?

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by doggin94it View Post
    I'll agree, in general terms. But Nazi Germany is somewhat special circumstances; if the soldier had both an awareness of what his country was doing and any choice in the matter . . . no, I can't respect that. I can respect the dedication to duty, the willingness to sacrifice. But I can't respect the choice to place those qualities in the service of a nation engaged in genocide.
    One man's genocide is another man's fight for the survivial of his Nation and People.

    I do not disagree with you, for the record.

    But as always, these issues are far more complicated than an A or B option. The vast majority of the rank and file were not aware of the Final Solution, and if they were, it was (as is so often the case) rumour and speculation in the midst of fighting a War.

    Conversely, the very same arguments could be made against us, for actions we took in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan. We tend to make excuses, because we (generally) believe ourselves to be noble and our intentions pure. Tell that to the Vietnamese family who had a Napalm canister land 50 feet from them, or the village that was slaughtered almost wholesale by U.S. troops. These event color our efforts as well, and an argument could be made that U.S. soldiers who did not take part, but knew these events occured, would face teh same logical scrutiny you place upon the soldiers of Germany in WWII.

    The argument could also be made that by aligning ourselves with the Soviets, and being aware of what they were doing and had done, we also bear some responsabillity for it as well.

    And again, one cannot seperate the circumstances, the defeat of Germany in WWI, the harsh terms laid down by the Allies on Germany at Versailles, and the social and political climate of Germany, and greater Europe, leading up to WWII that so deeply colors everything that occured, including why Germans fought and fell so hard for what Hitler was peddling.

    I guess when it comes down to it, simply "respecting all who wear a Uniform" is toos imply, and skips too much, to be a valid opinion, eh?

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    One man's genocide is another man's fight for the survivial of his Nation and People.

    I do not disagree with you, for the record.

    But as always, these issues are far more complicated than an A or B option. The vast majority of the rank and file were not aware of the Final Solution, and if they were, it was (as is so often the case) rumour and speculation in the midst of fighting a War.

    Conversely, the very same arguments could be made against us, for actions we took in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan. We tend to make excuses, because we (generally) believe ourselves to be noble and our intentions pure. Tell that to the Vietnamese family who had a Napalm canister land 50 feet from them, or the village that was slaughtered almost wholesale by U.S. troops. These event color our efforts as well, and an argument could be made that U.S. soldiers who did not take part, but knew these events occured, would face teh same logical scrutiny you place upon the soldiers of Germany in WWII.

    The argument could also be made that by aligning ourselves with the Soviets, and being aware of what they were doing and had done, we also bear some responsabillity for it as well.

    And again, one cannot seperate the circumstances, the defeat of Germany in WWI, the harsh terms laid down by the Allies on Germany at Versailles, and the social and political climate of Germany, and greater Europe, leading up to WWII that so deeply colors everything that occured, including why Germans fought and fell so hard for what Hitler was peddling.

    I guess when it comes down to it, simply "respecting all who wear a Uniform" is toos imply, and skips too much, to be a valid opinion, eh?
    So you are saying War is Hell and that it is way to easy to ascribe ones current ethics and values from behind the safety of ones computer rather than in the reality of a firefight?

  8. #188

    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by sackdance View Post
    Normally a guy living in his mom's basement will fare a little better than you when taking on a whole message board.

    http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk...dy_vietnam.htm

    Maybe it's time to apologize to your mother about whatever happened. Unresolved tensions are spilling over into your cyber life - and not in a good way.
    I'll apologize to my mother as soon you tell your mother to stop coming by my house. One time banging her is enough.

    Oh you didn't like that? Then keep mothers out of the ****ing thread and keep your insults to me and me only. Capice?
    Last edited by JoeyStylez; 10-16-2012 at 06:57 PM.

  9. #189

    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    I guess when it comes down to it, simply "respecting all who wear a Uniform" is toos imply, and skips too much, to be a valid opinion, eh?
    Thank you, Warfish. That's the point I was trying to make. Of course no one could see it because all they saw was "HE HATES THE MILITARY!!!", which is not true at all. I respect the military and the things they have done and continue to do. But I'm not going to automatically respect someone just because he/she wears a uniform, when that person spews hateful and divisive rhetoric.

    I don't expect you take my side on this WF, I'm just glad you're objective enough to see the point I was trying to make, which is all I was ask of everyone else.

  10. #190

    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by Bonhomme Richard View Post
    Then you have a very loose, naive, and embarrassing grasp on history.
    I have a good grasp on history. I gave you my opinion. Whether that opinion would've been right or wrong is a moot point.

    Do you know for sure...FOR SURE...what JFK would've done? No, you don't, and you never will. All you have is an opinion, a guess, same as I do.

  11. #191

    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by palmetto defender View Post
    You are a dolt. Here's what I contributed: I did a good job of commanding men in combat and lost not one of them due to stupidity or mistakes made by me. Men are alivge today because of what I did. That's not to say none of my men were not killed, but not due to my error.
    And Vietnam was necessary. You have to stand somewhere. It was part of a continuing strategy which ultimately propelled us to the lone superpower.
    BTW, more men ( as a %) volunteered during the Vietnam War than during WWII.
    The Civil war was a war of choice as you know. Unnecessary.

    Now go back to your gay bar.
    I'm quite straight, thank you. Although what my sexual preference has to do with this debate, I'm not sure. Why do you have gay bar on your mind, palmetto bug defender?

    Oh I get it, your saying I'm gay as an INSULT! Wow, how very 1953 of you. Have you chased down any gay kids and forced them to the ground so you shave their heads lately? Mitt would be proud.

    BTW Vietnam was NOT necessary. Every thinking person agrees with this, including Robert McNamara himself. You wanna lie to yourself so you can sleep better at night, you go right ahead. Don't expect anyone else with half a brain to believe the bull**** you're putting out. Vietnam ended up a communist country anyway, so that had ****-all to do with the US winning the Cold War. The Russian people's desire for blue jeans and rock and roll did a lot more to bring about the fall of the Iron Curtain than did Vietnam.

    And now you're saying the Civil War was a war of choice? Guess Lincoln should've just let the country split apart, huh? How can you call yourself a patriot when you can sit there and type that garbage. Get back on your meds, old man.

  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    One man's genocide is another man's fight for the survivial of his Nation and People.

    I do not disagree with you, for the record.

    But as always, these issues are far more complicated than an A or B option. The vast majority of the rank and file were not aware of the Final Solution, and if they were, it was (as is so often the case) rumour and speculation in the midst of fighting a War.

    Conversely, the very same arguments could be made against us, for actions we took in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan. We tend to make excuses, because we (generally) believe ourselves to be noble and our intentions pure. Tell that to the Vietnamese family who had a Napalm canister land 50 feet from them, or the village that was slaughtered almost wholesale by U.S. troops. These event color our efforts as well, and an argument could be made that U.S. soldiers who did not take part, but knew these events occured, would face teh same logical scrutiny you place upon the soldiers of Germany in WWII.

    The argument could also be made that by aligning ourselves with the Soviets, and being aware of what they were doing and had done, we also bear some responsabillity for it as well.

    And again, one cannot seperate the circumstances, the defeat of Germany in WWI, the harsh terms laid down by the Allies on Germany at Versailles, and the social and political climate of Germany, and greater Europe, leading up to WWII that so deeply colors everything that occured, including why Germans fought and fell so hard for what Hitler was peddling.

    I guess when it comes down to it, simply "respecting all who wear a Uniform" is toos imply, and skips too much, to be a valid opinion, eh?
    wait...what episdoe of Sesame Street was this?!?!?

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyStylez View Post
    I have a good grasp on history. I gave you my opinion. Whether that opinion would've been right or wrong is a moot point.

    Do you know for sure...FOR SURE...what JFK would've done? No, you don't, and you never will. All you have is an opinion, a guess, same as I do.
    We already had troops on the ground when JFK was President. We had a burgeoning presence in Vietnam when Eisenhower was President.

  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyStylez View Post
    I'm quite straight, thank you. Although what my sexual preference has to do with this debate, I'm not sure. Why do you have gay bar on your mind, palmetto bug defender?

    Oh I get it, your saying I'm gay as an INSULT! Wow, how very 1953 of you. Have you chased down any gay kids and forced them to the ground so you shave their heads lately? Mitt would be proud.

    BTW Vietnam was NOT necessary. Every thinking person agrees with this, including Robert McNamara himself. You wanna lie to yourself so you can sleep better at night, you go right ahead. Don't expect anyone else with half a brain to believe the bull**** you're putting out. Vietnam ended up a communist country anyway, so that had ****-all to do with the US winning the Cold War. The Russian people's desire for blue jeans and rock and roll did a lot more to bring about the fall of the Iron Curtain than did Vietnam.

    And now you're saying the Civil War was a war of choice? Guess Lincoln should've just let the country split apart, huh? How can you call yourself a patriot when you can sit there and type that garbage. Get back on your meds, old man.

    One can quickly determine from your writing and responses that you are, quite frankly, stupid. Another example of where our education system has failed utterly.

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyStylez View Post
    I have a good grasp on history. I gave you my opinion. Whether that opinion would've been right or wrong is a moot point.

    Do you know for sure...FOR SURE...what JFK would've done? No, you don't, and you never will. All you have is an opinion, a guess, same as I do.
    On this matter you apparently have no grasp of history and what President Kennedy actually did in Vietnam.

    http://www.historyplace.com/unitedst...ndex-1961.html

  16. #196
    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyStylez View Post
    Thank you, Warfish.
    No problem, it's an interesting discussion to have.

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyStylez View Post
    I have a good grasp on history.
    If you believe JFK living would have (as you said) meant no Vietnam War, I respectfully would say you need to go back and re-look at the events of the time and previous.

    My friends Richardand Winston are correct, we were already involved by the time Kennedy came into office, and Kennedy was no stranger to risky millitary moves nor fighting the Cold War. I think it's an unsupported leap to claim there would be no war if he had lived.

    Quote Originally Posted by piney View Post
    wait...what episdoe of Sesame Street was this?!?!?
    Forgive me my friend, but I don't understand the reference you're making here or how it relates to this thread/topic. Sorry

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    Forgive me my friend, but I don't understand the reference you're making here or how it relates to this thread/topic. Sorry
    It was a joke:

    The thread title was about Romney wanting to get rid of PBS, and since there was a push to make it appear as though Romney wanted Sesame Street off the air and the direction this thread took I thought of an episdoe of Sesame Street covering the serious and controversial topic of your post.

    Just made me laugh:

    Grover: "You see kids, one man's genocide is another man's fight for the survival of his nation..."


    sorry, sometime I forget not everyone is in my head.

  18. #198

    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by palmetto defender View Post
    One can quickly determine from your writing and responses that you are, quite frankly, stupid. Another example of where our education system has failed utterly.
    Really? THIS is the best you could come up with? I call you out on your ridiculous belief that both Vietnam and Iraq were necessary military actions, and all you can counter with is I'm "stupid." Dude, I'm laughing at you. LAUGHING.

  19. #199

    Cool

    BTW I've decided to brush up on my history, and it turns out my initial view may have been wrong regarding JFK and Vietnam. Whether it would have escalated to the same degree that it did if Kennedy were alive, we'll never know.

  20. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeyStylez View Post
    BTW I've decided to brush up on my history, and it turns out my initial view may have been wrong regarding JFK and Vietnam. Whether it would have escalated to the same degree that it did if Kennedy were alive, we'll never know.
    Now go read up on Lincoln and the Civil War. There were other options than just the country breaking up or keeping it together via the most brutal war this country ever fought.

    Avoid the stuff about Lincoln killing vampires too, I am pretty sure that was made up.

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