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Thread: Affirmative Action

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by 32green View Post
    Do you know what assumption means?

    -
    Conclusions based on flawed thinking without any link to reality to fit your agenda?

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by doggin94it View Post
    Knew you would, my friend.
    I'm becomming too predictable, aren't I?

    Not that simple. There are too many other, subjective factors - everything from letters of recommendation to the interview to essay answers to geography - to boil it down that simply.
    Ah, so your claim then, is that a applicant of color who is inferior in academics, activities and test scores did not get in over the superior (in this specific individual case) white student because of race.....it was their respective "letters of recommendation"?

    I'm sorry my friend. I know that in the real world, where I was not allowed in and my friend was despite lacking in every academic, testing and activity category, it was not his letter of recommendation that overcame my various advantages. He didn't have any (nor did I for that matter).

    When it comes down to it, I cannot support Affirmative Action because Affirmative Action is racist. It treats people differently based on their skin tone, and directly posits that the experience of simply being a minority makes you a superior option than an equaivalent or even superior who is not. It stands against the true, universal, equallity I believe in. It replaces one group of victims with another, and justifies it with past actions of past generations.

    I take full responsabillity for the derailed life I've led. But I will never stop wondering what my life path would have been if I'd gotten in instead of being denied because I was a white male. Same way I'll always wonder about my life if my parents hadn't yanked me away from everything anf everyone I knew in NY at the tender age of 12, a move that changed me and my personality on such a fundamnetal level it shocks me even to this day. Neither event controls my future, I do, but it certainly has effectedwho and what I am as a person today.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by FF2 View Post
    Conclusions based on flawed thinking without any link to reality to fit your agenda?
    No.....thats not it.

    Keep reading.

    -

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    I'm becomming too predictable, aren't I?
    Yep. I'm calling your plays out as you run em

    (predictable, consistent, whatever )


    Ah, so your claim then, is that a applicant of color who is inferior in academics, activities and test scores did not get in over the superior (in this specific individual case) white student because of race.....it was their respective "letters of recommendation"?
    No, I'm talking about the legal world, where the case will be dismissed because of the equivalent of the business judgment rule. (The business judgment rule basically says courts can't second guess the wisdom of business decisions, merely whether there was a conflict of interest or some other illegality). Because there are inherently subjective factors that go into admissions, courts can't set themselves up to second guess admissions officers who make them.

    I'm sorry my friend. I know that in the real world, where I was not allowed in and my friend was despite lacking in every academic, testing and activity category, it was not his letter of recommendation that overcame my various advantages. He didn't have any (nor did I for that matter).
    I'm sure.

    When it comes down to it, I cannot support Affirmative Action because Affirmative Action is racist. It treats people differently based on their skin tone, and directly posits that the experience of simply being a minority makes you a superior option than an equaivalent or even superior who is not.
    I get that, but it's not about which student is superior, any more than a school that says "we've already admitted 20 violinists; lets admit a dancer over violinist # 21" is saying that the dancer is objectively superior to that 21st violinist.
    It stands against the true, universal, equallity I believe in. It replaces one group of victims with another, and justifies it with past actions of past generations.
    I get that perspective - in fact, I agree with it, in the abstract. But I also see the benefits of having a well rounded student body.

    I take full responsabillity for the derailed life I've led. But I will never stop wondering what my life path would have been if I'd gotten in instead of being denied because I was a white male. Same way I'll always wonder about my life if my parents hadn't yanked me away from everything anf everyone I knew in NY at the tender age of 12, a move that changed me and my personality on such a fundamnetal level it shocks me even to this day. Neither event controls my future, I do, but it certainly has effectedwho and what I am as a person today.
    No doubt. But you're a pretty good dude as it is

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by doggin94it View Post
    Interesting stat - did they control for the "top 10%" rule? (By law, the university of texas accepts any Texas high school student who graduates in the top 10% of their high school class, regardless of SAT score)
    It appears they did - these are scores for students outside the 10% admissions.

    I do acknowledge that the mean grades and SAT scores probably aren't as useful for this questions as the SAT scores for, say, the bottom 5% of admitted students by race, since those students are presumably the ones on the margins of admissions. I don't have those figures at my fingertips but will look for them.

  6. #86
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    For more on the actual magnitude of affirmative action preferences, I find Judge Boggs's dissent in the 6th Circuit opinion in Grutter v. Bollinger very enlightening. Keep in mind, this is the policy for Michigan Law that was upheld by the Supreme Court.

    http://www.vpcomm.umich.edu/admissio...p-op.html#ft39

    An examination of the admissions data shows that even the most qualified majority(19) students (those with an LSAT over 170 and a GPA over 3.75) do not achieve the perfect admissions percentages for under-represented minority students with a GPA nearly a point less and an LSAT score in the 164-66 range. More roughly speaking, under-represented minorities with a high C to low B undergraduate average are admitted at the same rate as majority applicants with an A average with roughly the same LSAT scores.(20) Along a different axis, minority applicants with an A average and an LSAT score down to 156 (the 70th percentile nationally) are admitted at roughly the same rate as majority applicants with an A average and an LSAT score over a 167 (the 96th percentile nationally).

    The figures indicate that race is worth over one full grade point of college average or at least an 11-point and 20-percentile boost on the LSAT. In effect, the Law School admits students by giving very substantial additional weight to virtually every candidate designated as an "under-represented minority" or, equivalently, by substantially discounting the credentials earned by every student who happens to fall outside the Law School's minority designation.

    For the potential applicant, the Law School's system creates very different dilemmas depending on his race. If confronted a year before they applied to the Law School with the records of two students, whose non-racial credentials were equivalent, we might evaluate their prospects for admission as follows: Student A could work harder and raise her GPA by a full point. Student B could reveal the fact of his skin color or ethnicity, it being in one of the preferred categories.(21) The Law School's admissions officer, who before both changes would have rated the students equally, would now find the students equal, the effort of the one being counterbalanced by the background of the other.

    More shocking is the comparison of the chances of admission for applicants with the same academic credentials (at least numerically). Taking a middle-range applicant with an LSAT score 164-66 and a GPA of 3.25-3.49, the chances of admission for a white or Asian applicant are around 22 percent. For an under-represented minority applicant, the chances of admission (100%) would be better called a guarantee of admission.

    At some point, however, comparison of the admissions rates of white, Asian, and other unselected ethnic applicants and the minority groups designated for preference becomes impossible. The Law School simply stops meaningful consideration of non-minority candidates below certain grade point and LSAT figures,(22) a practice demonstrated by admissions rates well below 10 percent, and often the absence of a single admitted student, in these credential categories. "Under-represented minorities," on the other hand, not only continue to have respectable chances of admission in these categories, but in most cases enjoy rates of admission in excess of 80 percent.(23) Far from receiving "competitive consideration," majority applicants are all but summarily rejected with credentials, but not ethnicity, identical to their under-represented minority "competitors" who are virtually guaranteed admission. The Law School's admissions practices betray its claim that it gives meaningful individual consideration to every applicant notwithstanding their race.
    Whatever justification there may be for giving some consideration to race as part of a "holistic" approach to admissions, that is not what these programs do. They set up a two-tiered admissions program with vastly different admissions requirements depending on a student's race.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by doggin94it View Post
    Schools don't want well rounded students. They want well rounded student bodies.
    It would be splendid if they put as much effort into having a well rounded faculty.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by doggin94it View Post
    Yep. I'm calling your plays out as you run em

    (predictable, consistent, whatever )
    I have become the Shotty of the J.I. Politics Forum.

    Oh, the huge-manity.

    No doubt. But you're a pretty good dude as it is
    Appreciate the kindness my friend. Personally, I still think I'd be a better one had I never left NY as a kid, but who knows tbh.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frequent Flyer View Post
    It would be splendid if they put as much effort into having a well rounded faculty.
    Indeed. When it comes to socio-political ideology, college campus are (IMO) some of the least "multicultural and diverse" work sectors we have in the U.S.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpoppy7 View Post
    For more on the actual magnitude of affirmative action preferences, I find Judge Boggs's dissent in the 6th Circuit opinion in Grutter v. Bollinger very enlightening. Keep in mind, this is the policy for Michigan Law that was upheld by the Supreme Court.

    http://www.vpcomm.umich.edu/admissio...p-op.html#ft39



    Whatever justification there may be for giving some consideration to race as part of a "holistic" approach to admissions, that is not what these programs do. They set up a two-tiered admissions program with vastly different admissions requirements depending on a student's race.
    Yep, that is an absurd disparity

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by doggin94it View Post
    Race conscious (but not race based) admissions have been legal under supreme court precedent for about a decade, and should, IMO, continue to remain so. Schools have legitimate interests in maintaining diverse student populations, and race - as well as socioeconomic background, religion, and ethnicity are all viable factors a school should be able to consider in determining the composition of its incoming freshman class. All that said, I doubt it's a significant factor and the dismissal of the student plaintiff's case will and should be dismissed since there's no way (given the complex mix of factors involved) to assert that she "should have" been admitted.
    How does affirmative action get us to a post racial USA? Is that even a goal in a society that promotes diversity over assimilation?

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  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frequent Flyer View Post
    This is worthy of its own thread, Brother.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpoppy7 View Post
    For more on the actual magnitude of affirmative action preferences, I find Judge Boggs's dissent in the 6th Circuit opinion in Grutter v. Bollinger very enlightening. Keep in mind, this is the policy for Michigan Law that was upheld by the Supreme Court.

    http://www.vpcomm.umich.edu/admissio...p-op.html#ft39



    Whatever justification there may be for giving some consideration to race as part of a "holistic" approach to admissions, that is not what these programs do. They set up a two-tiered admissions program with vastly different admissions requirements depending on a student's race.
    That is just sad. Based on this report I would like to know if you were (falsely of course ) accused of murder would anyone here see the value in weighting your decision on which lawyer to hire by giving a 20% bump to someone based on race?

    I mean diversity is so important isn't it? Or is it only important for others. If you wouldn't then you are readily admitting that these policies are not giving the best opportunities to the people that are most likely in a position intellectually capable of being the best in their careers regardless of race.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winstonbiggs View Post
    How does affirmative action get us to a post racial USA? Is that even a goal in a society that promotes diversity over assimilation?
    I don't think there's ever such a thing as a "post-racial" society. And if there is, I don't think any external tool will make it happen (or prevent it from happening).

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trades View Post
    That is just sad. Based on this report I would like to know if you were (falsely of course ) accused of murder would anyone here see the value in weighting your decision on which lawyer to hire by giving a 20% bump to someone based on race?

    I mean diversity is so important isn't it? Or is it only important for others. If you wouldn't then you are readily admitting that these policies are not giving the best opportunities to the people that are most likely in a position intellectually capable of being the best in their careers regardless of race.
    Eh, what? In hiring a lawyer, the sole issue is "who will best do the job"

    In admitting students, "who will get the best grades" is not the only factor. The overall mix of students plays - and should play - a role. The situations are not at all analogous

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by doggin94it View Post
    The overall mix of students plays - and should play - a role. The situations are not at all analogous
    This is where we disagree.

    Your argument is, in effect, that any situation where a trio of a white, black and hispanic is INHERANTLY BETTER than a less diverse threesome, regardless of all other factors involved.

    To that, I can only pass along some very wise words:

    I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.
    Your skin tone, or ethnic genetic makeup, is not what makes a person a "diverse" option, nor does being the "right" color make you a better University experience for those around you. The person you are is what does that, and that will never be judged by filling in the right box on the right form to get a leg up over other, more merit-based deserving applicants.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    This is where we disagree.

    Your argument is, in effect, that any situation where a trio of a white, black and hispanic is INHERANTLY BETTER than a less diverse threesome, regardless of all other factors involved.

    To that, I can only pass along some very wise words:



    Your skin tone, or ethnic genetic makeup, is not what makes a person a "diverse" option, nor does being the "right" color make you a better University experience for those around you. The person you are is what does that, and that will never be judged by filling in the right box on the right form to get a leg up over other, more merit-based deserving applicants.
    I agree with you here.

    The promotion of "diversity" is an affirmation that there are discernible differences between "races" ie "white" "black" "asian" et al.

    And if people are different (based on skin color) then that opens the door to compare those differences.

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    This is where we disagree.

    Your argument is, in effect, that any situation where a trio of a white, black and hispanic is INHERANTLY BETTER than a less diverse threesome, regardless of all other factors involved.

    To that, I can only pass along some very wise words:



    Your skin tone, or ethnic genetic makeup, is not what makes a person a "diverse" option, nor does being the "right" color make you a better University experience for those around you. The person you are is what does that, and that will never be judged by filling in the right box on the right form to get a leg up over other, more merit-based deserving applicants.
    That's not his argument at all. Heart surgery...I want the best in the room. edumacatuin is a different animal. Diverse student base certainly does provide a superior experience. Unless you thing college is just what happens in he classroom.

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    This is where we disagree.

    Your argument is, in effect, that any situation where a trio of a white, black and hispanic is INHERANTLY BETTER than a less diverse threesome, regardless of all other factors involved.

    To that, I can only pass along some very wise words:



    Your skin tone, or ethnic genetic makeup, is not what makes a person a "diverse" option, nor does being the "right" color make you a better University experience for those around you. The person you are is what does that, and that will never be judged by filling in the right box on the right form to get a leg up over other, more merit-based deserving applicants.

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    This is where we disagree.

    Your argument is, in effect, that any situation where a trio of a white, black and hispanic is INHERANTLY BETTER than a less diverse threesome, regardless of all other factors involved.
    No, that's not my argument at all - any more than I would say that a trio of a NYer, a mid-westerner, and a southerner are always inherently better than 3 people from one geographic region. Nor - even in education - is it "irrespective of all other factors involved"
    Last edited by doggin94it; 10-17-2012 at 10:40 AM.

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