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Thread: Affirmative Action

  1. #1
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    Affirmative Action

    Suprised there was no topic about the case before the Supreme Court yesterday on U of Texas's affirmative action policies.

    From reports I heard, ti sounds like the policy may be under some very heavy scrutiny and possibly knocked out altogether.

    Actual equallity under the Law? Is it possible?

  2. #2
    Good luck with that ever happening. So long as there are special interest groups that are empowered and effectively sway law and policy to their own advantage then policies such as affirmative action will remain in some way shape or form.

  3. #3
    Affirmative Action in America; since 1619

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Jetdawgg View Post
    Affirmative Action in America; since 1619
    Keep on playing the victim card, Brother. It will get you real far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ernie View Post
    Keep on playing the victim card, Brother. It will get you real far.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOOTKA0aGI0




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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ernie View Post
    Keep on playing the victim card, Brother. It will get you real far.
    Says the Mets fan who constantly posts about how mean the Yankees are

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jetdawgg View Post
    Affirmative Action in America; since 1619
    You'd be less than nothing without it.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Ernie View Post
    Keep on playing the victim card, Brother. It will get you real far.
    Not victim, FACT

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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    Suprised there was no topic about the case before the Supreme Court yesterday on U of Texas's affirmative action policies.

    From reports I heard, ti sounds like the policy may be under some very heavy scrutiny and possibly knocked out altogether.

    Actual equallity under the Law? Is it possible?

    Race conscious (but not race based) admissions have been legal under supreme court precedent for about a decade, and should, IMO, continue to remain so. Schools have legitimate interests in maintaining diverse student populations, and race - as well as socioeconomic background, religion, and ethnicity are all viable factors a school should be able to consider in determining the composition of its incoming freshman class. All that said, I doubt it's a significant factor and the dismissal of the student plaintiff's case will and should be dismissed since there's no way (given the complex mix of factors involved) to assert that she "should have" been admitted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by doggin94it View Post
    Schools have legitimate interests in maintaining diverse student populations, and race - as well as socioeconomic background, religion, and ethnicity are all viable factors a school should be able to consider in determining the composition of its incoming freshman class.
    Sorry, schools shouldnt be able to use race to "include" any more than they can use it to "exclude".

    When you pick a student based upon the variables you listed, you are, in effect, excluding someone else based upon their religion, race, sex etc.

    Grades.

    Get some.





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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by MnJetFan View Post
    What fact?
    Affirmative Action in play since 1619 in America

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    Quote Originally Posted by doggin94it View Post
    Race conscious (but not race based) admissions have been legal under supreme court precedent for about a decade, and should, IMO, continue to remain so. Schools have legitimate interests in maintaining diverse student populations, and race - as well as socioeconomic background, religion, and ethnicity are all viable factors a school should be able to consider in determining the composition of its incoming freshman class. All that said, I doubt it's a significant factor and the dismissal of the student plaintiff's case will and should be dismissed since there's no way (given the complex mix of factors involved) to assert that she "should have" been admitted.
    Why? What do any of those factors have to do with providing a good education or determining the potential of the student to succeed?

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Jetdawgg View Post
    Affirmative Action in play since 1619 in America
    Keep on playing the Victim Card. That is how you get ahead.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by 32green View Post
    Sorry, schools shouldnt be able to use race to "include" any more than they can use it to "exclude".

    When you pick a student based upon the variables you listed, you are, in effect, excluding someone else based upon their religion, race, sex etc.

    Grades.

    Get some.





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    You're missing the point. First, it's not a selection criteria, any more than a student's participation in debate or crew or drama in school is. It's merely a factor to be considered. Second, schools have been considering factors other than grades since time immemorial. Extracurriculars, life experience, particular talents and interests, geography, socioeconomic status, and yes, race, all go into the equation.

    Guidance counselors used to tell high schoolers that colleges were looking for well rounded students. That's a myth (and I know this from my days advising for Kaplan; we had contacts at the various admissions offices and knew what people were looking for).

    Schools don't want well rounded students. They want well rounded student bodies.

    Not 1000 students all equally mediocre at everything, but 1,000 students who are each outstanding in different things. Some math lovers, some science lovers, some english whizzes, some athletes, some thespians, some rich (well, lots rich, they hope, since they want alumni donations) some poor, some black, some white, some hispanic, etc., some from the northeast some from the deep south, etc.

    It's about building a student population that embraces multiple perspectives and backgrounds, because that, in and of itself, is an important part of the college education process.

    Of course, that doesn't mean you let in unqualified students based on race - but it does mean that, given two relatively equally qualified students, one of whom rounds out the student body better than the other, the one who rounds out the student body will get selected - regardless of what quality (race, talent, geography, etc.) it is that is the distinctive one.

    So yeah, it sucks to be white, male, and otherwise average, since, from an experiential standpoint and without sufficient knowledge of the individual characteristics (knowledge no admissions officer can have) there are relatively more of us than, say, black females from Minnesota. But there's no illegality or equal protection violation or moral wrong in that reality.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Trades View Post
    Why? What do any of those factors have to do with providing a good education or determining the potential of the student to succeed?
    For that student? Next to nothing. For the other students exposed to an atmosphere that more broadly reflects the wider world? Quite a bit.

    It's not that a student's geographical or racial or socioeconomic background makes them more likely to succeed. It's that a well rounded student body provides educational benefits a less well rounded student body does not, and the only way you get to a well rounded student body is by paying attention to the gender, racial, geographical, socioeconomic etc. status of individual students.

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    Quote Originally Posted by doggin94it View Post
    You're missing the point. First, it's not a selection criteria, any more than a student's participation in debate or crew or drama in school is. It's merely a factor to be considered. Second, schools have been considering factors other than grades since time immemorial. Extracurriculars, life experience, particular talents and interests, geography, socioeconomic status, and yes, race, all go into the equation.

    Guidance counselors used to tell high schoolers that colleges were looking for well rounded students. That's a myth (and I know this from my days advising for Kaplan; we had contacts at the various admissions offices and knew what people were looking for).

    Schools don't want well rounded students. They want well rounded student bodies.

    Not 1000 students all equally mediocre at everything, but 1,000 students who are each outstanding in different things. Some math lovers, some science lovers, some english whizzes, some athletes, some thespians, some rich (well, lots rich, they hope, since they want alumni donations) some poor, some black, some white, some hispanic, etc., some from the northeast some from the deep south, etc.

    It's about building a student population that embraces multiple perspectives and backgrounds, because that, in and of itself, is an important part of the college education process.

    Of course, that doesn't mean you let in unqualified students based on race - but it does mean that, given two relatively equally qualified students, one of whom rounds out the student body better than the other, the one who rounds out the student body will get selected - regardless of what quality (race, talent, geography, etc.) it is that is the distinctive one.

    So yeah, it sucks to be white, male, and otherwise average, since, from an experiential standpoint and without sufficient knowledge of the individual characteristics (knowledge no admissions officer can have) there are relatively more of us than, say, black females from Minnesota. But there's no illegality or equal protection violation or moral wrong in that reality.
    Lemme play Devil's advocate here:

    So, from your experience, schools in general will seek a wide range of students (race, socio-economic, wealth, ability etc.) because it's better for the school, its students and its programs.


    So, why is it necessary to have a law to force schools to do it if they already will do so on their own?

    Granted, "back in the day", schools DID bar students based on race. So the law was necessary back then.

    But is the law still necessary now?

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by doggin94it View Post
    it's not a selection criteria.. It's merely a factor to be considered.
    Huh?

    I trully believe your post is well intentioned, but to me (obviously not as educated and erudite as youself) its alot of purty talk for Colleges should be allowed to discriminate against deserving white kids in the name of diversity and an improved educational experience...when if the opposite occured....there would hell to pay.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 32green View Post
    Huh?

    I trully believe your post is well intentioned, but to me (obviously not as educated and erudite as youself) its alot of purty talk for Colleges should be allowed to discriminate against deserving white kids in the name of diversity and an improved educational experience...when if the opposite occured....there would hell to pay.

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    So...there's legions of deserving white kids who are living on the streets, with their dreams shattered, because society has barred them from getting into college?

    Or is this the victimization "Brother" Ernie keeps talking about here?

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by PlumberKhan View Post
    So...there's legions of deserving white kids who are living on the streets, with their dreams shattered, because society has barred them from getting into college?




    Since its so easy for you to dismiss this sarcastically when a mere white kid is involved (and who cares less about them, then uberlib white kids)....do some reading on how some deserving Asian kids are passed over because they dont fit this "student body" ideal that the colleges are allegedly looking for.

    Many Asian families are being counceled to not check the Asian box when applying to some of the better schools.

    Tell me again what the incentive is to study and apply yourself?

    Its a slippery slope.

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