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Thread: Affirmative Action

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by doggin94it View Post
    You're missing the point. First, it's not a selection criteria, any more than a student's participation in debate or crew or drama in school is. It's merely a factor to be considered. Second, schools have been considering factors other than grades since time immemorial. Extracurriculars, life experience, particular talents and interests, geography, socioeconomic status, and yes, race, all go into the equation.

    Guidance counselors used to tell high schoolers that colleges were looking for well rounded students. That's a myth (and I know this from my days advising for Kaplan; we had contacts at the various admissions offices and knew what people were looking for).

    Schools don't want well rounded students. They want well rounded student bodies.

    Not 1000 students all equally mediocre at everything, but 1,000 students who are each outstanding in different things. Some math lovers, some science lovers, some english whizzes, some athletes, some thespians, some rich (well, lots rich, they hope, since they want alumni donations) some poor, some black, some white, some hispanic, etc., some from the northeast some from the deep south, etc.

    It's about building a student population that embraces multiple perspectives and backgrounds, because that, in and of itself, is an important part of the college education process.

    Of course, that doesn't mean you let in unqualified students based on race - but it does mean that, given two relatively equally qualified students, one of whom rounds out the student body better than the other, the one who rounds out the student body will get selected - regardless of what quality (race, talent, geography, etc.) it is that is the distinctive one.

    So yeah, it sucks to be white, male, and otherwise average, since, from an experiential standpoint and without sufficient knowledge of the individual characteristics (knowledge no admissions officer can have) there are relatively more of us than, say, black females from Minnesota. But there's no illegality or equal protection violation or moral wrong in that reality.

    as an article asked, what exactly will those diverse minority students say to others that will enlighten them or enhance racial cooperation? They'll all still hang out with their racial/ethnic groups for the most part.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by quantum View Post
    as an article asked, what exactly will those diverse minority students say to others that will enlighten them or enhance racial cooperation? They'll all still hang out with their racial/ethnic groups for the most part.
    Some will. Some won't. (Just like caucasians!) I can tell you from current experience as my daughter has friends at school of all ethnicities.

    Even a girl from the Bronx!

    I lived on a floor with an Iranian kid during the Iran hostage crisis..talk about international diplomacy!

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by FF2 View Post
    Some will. Some won't. (Just like caucasians!) I can tell you from current experience as my daughter has friends at school of all ethnicities.

    Even a girl from the Bronx!

    I lived on a floor with an Iranian kid during the Iran hostage crisis..talk about international diplomacy!
    Affirmative action...if used properly, can and should be effective.

    Hiring poorly qualified minorities and blaming affirmative action is a cop out.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by doggin94it View Post
    Race conscious (but not race based) admissions have been legal under supreme court precedent for about a decade, and should, IMO, continue to remain so.
    First, I disagree that "race consciousness" shoukld play ANY role in admissions to an educational institution. Merit-based is the only acceptable mechanic IMO. Social-Engineering attempts are unacceptable. Put simply, it is not the role of our Government to force an artificial diversity upon it's populace, especially when that policy over-rides merit-based admissions in favor of social engineering.

    Schools have legitimate interests in maintaining diverse student populations, and race - as well as socioeconomic background, religion, and ethnicity are all viable factors a school should be able to consider in determining the composition of its incoming freshman class.
    I disagree completely. Schools have only ONE "legitimate interest", to accept the more meritious students and to educate them. Period.

    All that said, I doubt it's a significant factor
    With respect, then you are ill informed.

    case will and should be dismissed since there's no way (given the complex mix of factors involved) to assert that she "should have" been admitted.
    As stated, all it takes is an example where a single "of color" student with a universally inferior resume was accepted, where she was not, and the case IS proven.

    As one who was personally the victim of this form of state-based racism, I, unlike you (who, I'm sure, was never a bubble candidate who could have lost due to the racist policy in the first place) know with 100% surerty that this happenes, because it happened to me, and I didn't need tolook far for my "of color" example, he was one of my best friends in high school.

    Affirmative Action is State Supported Racism as Race-based revenge for previous generational wrongdoing, and it's wrong, period. We will never reach equallity with a system that inflicts harm on today's kids for the sins of men and women of 100+ years ago. Equallity, true, color-blind equallity, is what we should always be striving for. Not artificial "dversity" to please a a few social engineers who think only their view of the world is a valid one.
    Last edited by Warfish; 10-12-2012 at 10:22 AM.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warfish View Post
    I disagree completely. Schools have only ONE "legitimate interest", to accept the more meritious students and to educate them. Period.
    Then you have not read the mission statement of many schools.

    This is your OPINION on what schools should do.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by southparkcpa View Post
    Affirmative action...if used properly, can and should be effective.

    Hiring poorly qualified minorities and blaming affirmative action is a cop out.
    Stop making sense. I hate agreeing with you.

  7. #47
    The great thing about our modern society is that more and more interviews, applications for work, housing, mortgages, etc., etc., etc. will be done on line and be about pure data. The only way discrimination will continue is if we continue the silly policy of asking people on line or over the phone what their race/ethnicity is. If yo don't know you can't descriminate. If it's illegal to descriminate why are you allowing people who can't know ask?

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by FF2 View Post
    Like Shaniqua?
    Rashida or Tyrone work as well.
    If applications could be done on a SS basis, maybe that's the way. Like the posting of final grades used to be with student ID#s.
    Purely merit for admission.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by FF2 View Post
    Then you have not read the mission statement of many schools.

    This is your OPINION on what schools should do.
    Agreed...public institutions especially, should have a small carve out (say 5 percent) for certain agendas. At some point...it is society's partial responsibilty to make sure that all have similar opportunity. So a young black/latino urban child with a 1380 on their SAT , IMO, could in many cases take a spot from a young suburban white kid with a 1420.

    One studied on an empty stomach.

    Just my opinion.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by southparkcpa View Post
    Agreed...public institutions especially, should have a small carve out (say 5 percent) for certain agendas. At some point...it is society's partial responsibilty to make sure that all have similar opportunity. So a young black/latino urban child with a 1380 on their SAT , IMO, could in many cases take a spot from a young suburban white kid with a 1420.

    One studied on an empty stomach.

    Just my opinion.

    That 1380 kid should be reserved for a CB or RB. Or if Latino, an OF on the baseball team. Actually I'm not joking. Their ability outside the classroom is what gives them a little edge for admission.
    Overall, most schools (and conferences) do require certain academic averages among specific teams and for the athletic department in total. Which is why sports like cross country, lacrosse, women's soccer, volleyball, golf and tennis continue to thrive and expand. They give athletic academic credibility to a college.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by palmetto defender View Post
    That 1380 kid should be reserved for a CB or RB. Or if Latino, an OF on the baseball team. Actually I'm not joking. Their ability outside the classroom is what gives them a little edge for admission.
    Overall, most schools (and conferences) do require certain academic averages among specific teams and for the athletic department in total. Which is why sports like cross country, lacrosse, women's soccer, volleyball, golf and tennis continue to thrive and expand. They give athletic academic credibility to a college.
    Growing up poor, in a predominamtly latino neighborhood, I have seen the "other side".

    I see nothing in your post that I can agree with. So the young minority kid who loves science and is passionate about math can go to hell?

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by southparkcpa View Post
    Agreed...public institutions especially, should have a small carve out (say 5 percent) for certain agendas. At some point...it is society's partial responsibilty to make sure that all have similar opportunity. So a young black/latino urban child with a 1380 on their SAT , IMO, could in many cases take a spot from a young suburban white kid with a 1420.

    One studied on an empty stomach.

    Just my opinion.
    Except in the real world, thats now how it works.

    In the real world, it's just as likely that a well-off suburban black student, with a 3.0 and a 1160 and no/few extra cirriculars will get accepted, while a poorer white kid who came from nothing, had 3.1 and a 1290 and played sports and was in clubs would be denied acceptance.

    Telling, though, that you assume every "urban" black/latino must surely have "studied on an empty stompach", a laughably racist and inaccurate statement in and of itself. Being black/latino does not mean being poor or hungry, especially in a era where the schools themselves provide a heck of alot of food to those in need.

    It's typical that the complexity involved is used as a shield to cover up that race is a meaningful determining factor, far more meaningful that many care to admit, and is a form of racism-as-policy.

    Doesn't matter, like Immigration and so many other policies, it's a lost cause. Racism, as long as it punished the "right" people, is perfectly acceptable to many. Same as law breaking (immigration), pork spending, war, etc, etc, etc, etc.

    It's not worth the effort to be made or fight it, especially here.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by southparkcpa View Post
    Agreed...public institutions especially, should have a small carve out (say 5 percent) for certain agendas. At some point...it is society's partial responsibilty to make sure that all have similar opportunity. So a young black/latino urban child with a 1380 on their SAT , IMO, could in many cases take a spot from a young suburban white kid with a 1420.

    One studied on an empty stomach.

    Just my opinion.

    There are no poor, hungry white kids in the suburbs?

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by southparkcpa View Post
    Growing up poor, in a predominamtly latino neighborhood, I have seen the "other side".

    I see nothing in your post that I can agree with. So the young minority kid who loves science and is passionate about math can go to hell?


    Uh, oh. Let's not get libby here.
    If the Latino or black kid has paid his dues and has good numbers (GPA and SAT/ACT) then they are in the same boat as any white kid. And if admissions are "blind" (no race) what's the problem they are good or not good.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by brady's a catcher View Post
    There are no poor, hungry white kids in the suburbs?
    Did I say that? Please quote me if you are going to insinuate I said something.

    I was a poor hungry white kid in the suburbs. I literally went to bed to stop the hunger. The best meal I had was the free lunch at school and that is no joke.

    You want to have this discussion?

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by palmetto defender View Post
    Rashida or Tyrone work as well.
    If applications could be done on a SS basis, maybe that's the way. Like the posting of final grades used to be with student ID#s.
    Purely merit for admission.
    You need to be careful though.

    My daughters roommate is named Brittany.

    We show up to school and she's black!

    Crazy. Amirite?

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by southparkcpa View Post
    Did I say that? Please quote me if you are going to insinuate I said something.

    I was a poor hungry white kid in the suburbs. I literally went to bed to stop the hunger. The best meal I had was the free lunch at school and that is no joke.

    You want to have this discussion?

    Sure. In your generalization, you intimated that the minority kid would be going to bed hungry, not the the white kid. What does your personal history have to to do with your hypothetical scenario?

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by FF2 View Post
    You need to be careful though.

    My daughters roommate is named Brittany.

    We show up to school and she's black!

    Crazy. Amirite?

    A certain name CAN be used for discrimination - one way or another. I am totally against discrimination in the admission process. Your grades and tests and extras are good or not. Some people may give Rashida the nod because she may be black. Others will exclude her. Neither is fair.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by southparkcpa View Post
    Growing up poor, in a predominamtly latino neighborhood, I have seen the "other side".

    I see nothing in your post that I can agree with. So the young minority kid who loves science and is passionate about math can go to hell?

    BTW, as a follow up (not agreeing with ANYTHING in my post): Iam dead on correct on the part about athletics and other sports averaging out overall GPA and SAT. 100% dead on fact. I do have a couple college coaching affiliations.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by palmetto defender View Post
    BTW, as a follow up (not agreeing with ANYTHING in my post): Iam dead on correct on the part about athletics and other sports averaging out overall GPA and SAT. 100% dead on fact. I do have a couple college coaching affiliations.
    Hector should definitely play outfield and Tyrone should be CB.

    Are you bringing watermelon and grape soda too?

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