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Thread: Putting a statistical stake in Mark Sanchez's Jets career.

  1. #1
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    Putting a statistical stake in Mark Sanchez's Jets career.

    In 2009 The Jets had the number 1 ground game in the NFL, and a top 5 defense. Sanchez for some reason gets the credit.

    In 2010 the Jets had a top 5 ground game, and a top 5 defense. Somehow again Sanchez gets the credit.

    In 2011 the Jets had an average ground game, and a top 5 defense. Somehow its everyone elses Fault but Sanchez but at times youll still see a ton of cherry picked stats in which posters think he was actually improving

    Well here is some advanced metrics for you guys from Football Outsiders:

    Primer: Im using DVOA although some can use DYAR if they would like.


    The other statistic given is DVOA, or Defense-adjusted Value Over Average. This number represents value, per play, over an average quarterback in the same game situations. The more positive the DVOA rating, the better the player's performance. Negative DVOA represents below-average offense. DVOA (and its cousin, VOA, which isn't adjusted based on opponent) is further explained here.

    http://footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb

    In 2009 Mark Sanchez had a DVOA of -29 which ranked him 35 in the league. Yes he was ranked below some 2nd stringers.

    In 2010 Mark Sanchez had a DVOA of -4.3 which ranked him 28 in the league. Yes even with a good ground game, Edwards, Holmes, Keller and LT Mark Sanchez was one of the worst QB's in the league.

    In 2011 Mark Sanchez had a DVOA of -12 which ranked him 37th in the league. Yes, there were several backup QBs that were ranked above him. For those Cherry pickers please read this a few times.

    In 2012 Mark Sanchez currently has a DVOA of -23 which ranks him 31st in the league.


    Lets Sum it up:
    -Mark Sanchez at best has ranked 28-31st in the league at the QB position.
    -Yes this is saying that the majority of first stringers during this time period were better, as well as some backups.
    -Mark Sanchez has never EVER produced even an AVG offense.
    -Mark Sanchez Makes 13million a year.
    -
    The $58.25 million gives Sanchez the seventh-highest financial package among NFL quarterbacks, sources told ESPN senior NFL analyst Chris Mortensen.
    http://espn.go.com/new-york/nfl/stor...peyton-manning

    The majority of this teams wins since 2009 has been because of the defense and running game and coaching. Rex Ryan has beaten Peyton Manning at Indi in the playoffs, and Tom Brady in Foxboro in the playoffs. He has this team playing as hard as ever right now. Give him the credit. Give the Oline the credit. Give the defense the credit. Because there is an overpaid JAG taking way too much of the credit at the QB position for anything thats went right the last few years.


    Here is final attempt to knock some sense into you guys. Here are the last 20 superbowl QB's.


    Super Bowl 27. Troy Aikman (MVP), 4 TDs
    Super Bowl 28. Troy Aikman (Emmitt Smith), O TDs
    Super Bowl 29. Steve Young (MVP), 6 TDs
    Super Bowl 30. Troy Aikman (Larry Brown), 1 TD
    Super Bowl 31. Brett Favre (Desmond Howard), 2 TDs
    Super Bowl 32. John Elway (Terrell Davis), 0 TDs
    Super Bowl 33. John Elway (MVP), 1 TD
    Super Bowl 34. Kurt Warner (MVP), 2 TDs
    Super Bowl 35. Trent Dilfer (Ray Lewis), 1 TD
    Super Bowl 36. Tom Brady (MVP), 1 TD
    Super Bowl 37. Brad Johnson (Dexter Jackson), 2 TDs
    Super Bowl 38. Tom Brady (MVP), 3 TDs
    Super Bowl 39. Tom Brady (Deion Branch), 2 TDs
    Super Bowl 40. Ben Roethlisberger (Hines Ward), 0 TDs
    Super Bowl 41. Peyton Manning (MVP), 1 TD
    Super Bowl 42. Eli Manning (MVP), 2 TDs
    Super Bowl 43: Ben Roethlisberger (Santonio Holmes), 1 TD
    Super Bowl 44: Drew Brees (MVP), 2 TDs
    Super Bowl 45: Aaron Rogers (MVP), 3TDs
    Super Bowl 46: Eli Manning (MVP), 1 TD
    Anyone see the trend here? You dont win the Superbowl without a stud QB. There was one anomaly in 2000. Trent Dilfer won the Superbowl with a DVOA which ranked him 38th in the league(Sanchez territory). How did he do this? They did it with one of the best defenses in the history of the game, and best rushing games in the history of the game. Its a task that has been impossible to replicate by anyone else since and wont be happening again.


    I would like to wish Mark Sanchez well as a backup QB somewhere next year. I hope he enjoys the 40 million we have paid him to one of the worst QB's in the NFL these last few years. Your watching the last few games that he will be playing as a Jet. Enjoy them Sanchez apologist.

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    He has essentially lived off the two playoff years and he was not that great in the reg season of either year. His biggest problem by far is that even with a low comp % and not overly big passing game he still turns the ball over way too much.

    His performance will not change because he is simply not a good consistent passer. He looks great on one drive then will inexplicably throw the ball 5 yards over a guys head the next series. He is a frustrating guy to watch because the 1/4 of each game where he is on he looks like he can make all the plays.

    I see his upside to be that of Alex Smith, who as long as he has dominant positions all over the filed can be successful but only if he is not counted on to make too many plays.

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    His apologists have ignored his ugly stats for years, why would they stop now?

    For some reason, the prevailing attitude often around here is that team wins and losses are a QB statistic. That somehow Sanchez's low-level QB play could not be duplicated by 30 other guys around the league, that he is somehow bringing something special to the table that other QBs cannot, and this is the reason we win games. It simply isn't true. To his credit, he's played some of his best games in the playoffs. For that, I'm grateful, but like you said, it's time to move on.

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    Sanchez got about as little credit as you can possibly get and he was a rookie 2nd year player in 2009/2010. Any other QB is getting inducted into canton if he led his team to AFCC in his first two years with the kind of clutch performances he had.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beerfish View Post
    He has essentially lived off the two playoff years and he was not that great in the reg season of either year. His biggest problem by far is that even with a low comp % and not overly big passing game he still turns the ball over way too much.

    His performance will not change because he is simply not a good consistent passer. He looks great on one drive then will inexplicably throw the ball 5 yards over a guys head the next series. He is a frustrating guy to watch because the 1/4 of each game where he is on he looks like he can make all the plays.

    I see his upside to be that of Alex Smith, who as long as he has dominant positions all over the filed can be successful but only if he is not counted on to make too many plays.
    You really could argue that his low level of play in 2009 and 2010 regular seasons is the reason we had to even go on the road in the playoffs. I know winning on the road is seen as a defining achievement for the guy, but is not being able to secure a home playoff game with the top D in the league really something to brag about?

    When I was watching Niners-Giants yesterday, and the Niners fell behind, Aikmen kept saying that the Niners were not built to play from behind. That is a polite way of saying the QB is not good. You could apply the same to the Jets. And Smith is far more accurate and less error prone than Sanchez is right now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chupa View Post
    Sanchez got about as little credit as you can possibly get and he was a rookie 2nd year player in 2009/2010. Any other QB is getting inducted into canton if he led his team to AFCC in his first two years with the kind of clutch performances he had.
    Flacco did the same, and even though he's consistently put up better numbers than Sanchez during his career, he was still bashed this whole offseason for not being elite, not being able to raise his game to next level, etc. Sanchez to my knowledge makes far more money than Flacco (who is still waiting to get his big deal).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chupa View Post
    Any other QB is getting inducted into canton if he led his team to AFCC in his first two years with the kind of clutch performances he had.
    That's completely crap.

    Flacco has led the Ravens to the playoffs every year since he has been in the NFL.

    Brady won a division title, a conference championship and the Super Bowl his 1st year (2nd in league) as a starter.

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    The OP is 100% right that in today's NFL you need a stud QB to win a SB and the exceptions are just that--exceptions. So I don't know why he needed all those words to say that. Was it trying to prove a point or something?

    As to his conclusion about Sanchez being in his last year with the Jets, how is that possible with the $12 mil guaranteed next year?

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    Quote Originally Posted by PatsFanTX View Post
    That's completely crap.

    Flacco has led the Ravens to the playoffs every year since he has been in the NFL.

    Brady won a division title, a conference championship and the Super Bowl his 1st year (2nd in league) as a starter.
    And where did anyone mention Brady?

    Oh wait....I guess you're doing an impression of what I used to do when I harped on Braylon continuously : Bring up your favorite player 24/7 randomly in a discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by SMC View Post
    The OP is 100% right that in today's NFL you need a stud QB to win a SB and the exceptions are just that--exceptions. So I don't know why he needed all those words to say that. Was it trying to prove a point or something?

    As to his conclusion about Sanchez being in his last year with the Jets, how is that possible with the $12 mil guaranteed next year?
    I thought because he was extended two years, that meant THIS year wasn't his last since it was GUARANTEED. Is next year also guaranteed?

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    Quote Originally Posted by PatsFanTX View Post
    That's completely crap.

    Flacco has led the Ravens to the playoffs every year since he has been in the NFL.

    Brady won a division title, a conference championship and the Super Bowl his 1st year (2nd in league) as a starter.
    Your chowds are in very deep this week. In case you live under a rock and didn't notice, Sanchez completed over 50% of his passes yesterday, and could be poised for even more against Brady, Belichick, and all of the chowds in New England. Just promise us that you won't disappear from the board for a few months after Sanchez lights the Patriots up by completing over 50% of his passes next week, ok?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vin View Post
    And where did anyone mention Brady?
    Previous poster claimed Sanchez should be in Canton for the Jets making it to two AFCCG (which Sancez lost both games) his first two years.

    I provided 2 examples of other young QB's achieving more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vin View Post
    I thought because he was extended two years, that meant THIS year wasn't his last since it was GUARANTEED. Is next year also guaranteed?
    The extension essentially guaranteed 2 years with the Jets, this and next.

    There was no incentive for Sanchez to sign the extension otherwise because under the current contract he knew he'd be here this year. After Tanny whiffed on Peyton, Sanchez' agents knew he wasn't getting cut this year so Tanny couldn't use the "take less or we'll cut you" threat. So Tanny had to give Sanchez a nugget in order to get some extra cap flexibility.

    In other words, Tanny bought more cap room by redoing Sanchez's deal in exchange for giving Sanchez an extra year of assurance that he's on the team.

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    Mark Sanchez is a winning QB in this league and a winning QB in the playoffs - beating Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Carson Palmer and Phillip Rivers in the process...

    I don't argue stats... I argue wins and losses.. people who argue stats would like to have you believe that a guy like Rafael Palmeiro is a hall of fame baseball player...

    But for you stats guys out there - let's compare and you tell me who you would take...

    Quarterback A:
    62 Wins 63 Losses 4 ties
    50.1% completion percentage
    173 td's 220 int's

    Quarterback B:
    34 Wins 25 Losses
    54.7% completion percentage
    63 td's 57 int's

    Quarterback C:
    44 wins 37 losses
    66% completion percentage
    102 td's 64 int's









    QB-A: Joe Namath
    QB-B: Mark Sanchez
    QB-C: Chad Pennington

    Clearly from the stats, Mark Sanchez is a MUCH better quarterback.. And Chad Pennington is a borderline hall of famer in comparison to BOTH... The only thing that makes it possible for people to say that Joe Namath was a better QB then Mark Sanchez or Chad Pennington is the fact that he is the only QB to win the Jets a Super Bowl.

    The point is - who cares about stats... Lets just hope Mark Sanchez continues to win because THAT IS THE POINT OF THE GAME!

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    Quote Originally Posted by SlickBri481 View Post
    His apologists have ignored his ugly stats for years, why would they stop now?

    For some reason, the prevailing attitude often around here is that team wins and losses are a QB statistic. That somehow Sanchez's low-level QB play could not be duplicated by 30 other guys around the league, that he is somehow bringing something special to the table that other QBs cannot, and this is the reason we win games. It simply isn't true. To his credit, he's played some of his best games in the playoffs. For that, I'm grateful, but like you said, it's time to move on.
    Perfect articulation of the Sanchez Era. Stop posting so well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichmondVA_Jets View Post
    Mark Sanchez is a winning QB in this league and a winning QB in the playoffs - beating Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Carson Palmer and Phillip Rivers in the process...

    I don't argue stats... I argue wins and losses.. people who argue stats would like to have you believe that a guy like Rafael Palmeiro is a hall of fame baseball player...

    But for you stats guys out there - let's compare and you tell me who you would take...

    Quarterback A:
    62 Wins 63 Losses 4 ties
    50.1% completion percentage
    173 td's 220 int's

    Quarterback B:
    34 Wins 25 Losses
    54.7% completion percentage
    63 td's 57 int's

    Quarterback C:
    44 wins 37 losses
    66% completion percentage
    102 td's 64 int's









    QB-A: Joe Namath
    QB-B: Mark Sanchez
    QB-C: Chad Pennington

    Clearly from the stats, Mark Sanchez is a MUCH better quarterback.. And Chad Pennington is a borderline hall of famer in comparison to BOTH... The only thing that makes it possible for people to say that Joe Namath was a better QB then Mark Sanchez or Chad Pennington is the fact that he is the only QB to win the Jets a Super Bowl.

    The point is - who cares about stats... Lets just hope Mark Sanchez continues to win because THAT IS THE POINT OF THE GAME!


    ^ Oh no you didn't. You did NOT just compare Mark to Broadway Joe!



    southparkcpa is going to EAT YOU ALIVE for that.









    Quote Originally Posted by PatsFanTX View Post
    Previous poster claimed Sanchez should be in Canton for the Jets making it to two AFCCG (which Sancez lost both games) his first two years.

    I provided 2 examples of other young QB's achieving more.
    I think Chupa was being a bit more tongue-in-cheek there. I believe what he meant is not to poo-poo Mark's accomplishments as Jets QB. Whether he was helped or not, isn't the point. He did what he was ASKED to do.

    Now whether the FO Fubar'ed in thinking Mark was going to be a Franchise QB or not, isn't our problem....It's THEIRS.

    Thankfully with the new CBA regarding Rookie Salaries, the Jets could go after another QB without having to fully-commit to them until they Prove they can be an asset.

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    Joe Flacco had garbage dump performances in basically every playoff game he played those first two years. Sanchez had a QB rating of nearly 100, and outplayed Rivers/Brady/Manning

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichmondVA_Jets View Post
    Mark Sanchez is a winning QB in this league and a winning QB in the playoffs - beating Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Carson Palmer and Phillip Rivers in the process...

    I don't argue stats... I argue wins and losses.. people who argue stats would like to have you believe that a guy like Rafael Palmeiro is a hall of fame baseball player...

    But for you stats guys out there - let's compare and you tell me who you would take...

    Quarterback A:
    62 Wins 63 Losses 4 ties
    50.1% completion percentage
    173 td's 220 int's

    Quarterback B:
    34 Wins 25 Losses
    54.7% completion percentage
    63 td's 57 int's

    Quarterback C:
    44 wins 37 losses
    66% completion percentage
    102 td's 64 int's









    QB-A: Joe Namath
    QB-B: Mark Sanchez
    QB-C: Chad Pennington

    Clearly from the stats, Mark Sanchez is a MUCH better quarterback.. And Chad Pennington is a borderline hall of famer in comparison to BOTH... The only thing that makes it possible for people to say that Joe Namath was a better QB then Mark Sanchez or Chad Pennington is the fact that he is the only QB to win the Jets a Super Bowl.

    The point is - who cares about stats... Lets just hope Mark Sanchez continues to win because THAT IS THE POINT OF THE GAME!
    Namath played in a way different era, there's no point comparing his numbers because passing offenses were very different then and guys just didn't have the same efficiency throwing the ball.

    Posting Sanchez's numbers is never a good way to make an argument for the guy, but you don't think the Jets can do better than a 1:1 TD:INT ratio for his career type of guy at the game's most important position? That just because we win games at a decent clip the past few years, nothing can be improved upon that? We haven't beaten a team with a winning record since 2010. We're .500 during that time. Our QB is one of the lowest rated passers in the league. It can be improved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PatsFanTX View Post
    Previous poster claimed Sanchez should be in Canton for the Jets making it to two AFCCG (which Sancez lost both games) his first two years.

    I provided 2 examples of other young QB's achieving more.
    You don't think Sanchez belongs in Canton? Did you not read the article in the first post where based on the statistical analysis they used, Sanchez is the 31st ranked quarterback in the league this year?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SMC View Post
    The OP is 100% right that in today's NFL you need a stud QB to win a SB and the exceptions are just that--exceptions. So I don't know why he needed all those words to say that. Was it trying to prove a point or something?

    As to his conclusion about Sanchez being in his last year with the Jets, how is that possible with the $12 mil guaranteed next year
    ?

    Jets save 4million in Cutting Sanchez this off-season barring a trade to another team for a 6th or 7th rounder. Obviously there will be dead money. Jetscap.com is the source. Spread that to a June 1st cut and we save even more.


    However the real reason we can do this is the New rookie salary cap. Check out how cheap these contracts are: http://www.nfl.com/draft/story/09000...rstround-picks

    We wont be picking top 5. Picks after that make 2-3 million a year or less. It has NEVER been more appealing to draft a rookie QB. Combine that with Tebows super cheap salary as a backup and we will be fine.

    We have been pretty good with a terrible QB ranked 28th-37th these last 3+ years. Im pretty sure we can find the next tannehill, Russell Wilson or Andy Dalton to duplicate Sanchez sub par performance while saving a TON of money. All of those guys are making 2-3 million a year tops. Dalton and Wilson are playing for 1.5 million a year or less.


    Sanchez is a goner. There is no way he is finishing this season as our starting QB as we face Seahawks, Dolphins, Patriots and Cardinals who all stop the run. The bye week is looking real good for a QB change.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by ASG0531 View Post
    Perfect articulation of the Sanchez Era. Stop posting so well.
    Thanks. I've taken the blinders off with this guy. Others still won't. I think as fans it is our duty to support and pull for players our team drafts and really root for their development. To a point. We're passed that. Sanchez is not a good QB. I don't know what else people need to see. It is my belief that the team would succeed far more if we upgraded the game's most important position. I'm still surprised that many do not share this sentiment.

    Now maybe thanks to Tannenbaum we're stuck with the guy through next year, but that doesn't mean we have to pretend the guy is playing awesome just because the team wins some games.

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